On Addiction - Paradigm of Recovery

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast on addiction with Dr. Chip Dodd and Phil Herndon. This is a new weekly podcast recorded at the Center for Professional Excellence. Hey, everybody. Welcome back in to Sage Hill podcast. This is Phil Herndon along with Dr. Chip Dodd coming to you from CPE again. Hello, Chip. Hey, Phil. So so Hey, Phil. I know. Just look on your face is ridiculous. For some of you folks who know CPE right now, there's a lecture going on next door. You may hear a little little bit of background noise. Doctor Steve Ell is, we're grateful to have him here. He's working with the guys right now. Usually Phil or or I would be doing it. So, hey. To take all you old guys.

Yeah. That's right. Yeah. No kidding. So last time we talked about how to use this aircraft carrier picture, you know, for just slow turn. Like, this addiction thing is real. Yeah. Starting back in our first one about with the pandemic that we have on our hands. It's simple to do, but it's a big deal. That's for sure. So the thus, the aircraft carrier, metaphor, but we, we ended with you bringing up this word, this half anated word called reawakening. Mhmm. So, that's part of I guess I guess I mentioned there's a solution, and you said, yes. It's a reawakening of of sorts. So Yeah. About that. Yeah. You know, in fact, I just you and I I was just talking to, actually, doctor Steve a little bit ago, and, I just did a, a blog on freedom. And what's amazing is we to have our freedom is something we return to. We return to the time when we did not wear masks. We return to the time where we could say what we see and say what we feel and say what we need and even risk imagining ourselves in a full life out loud. Mhmm. So, reawakening is really and truly returning to that freedom spot and awakening how we're created when we refer to last podcast of the the, spiritual root system and, feelings, needs, desire, longings, and hope. Mhmm. And, honestly, I mean, it's hard to do. Let's face it. It's recovery is very hard. Otherwise, everybody would have it. But it's still simple in terms of what we return to as feeling our feelings, telling the truth about what's happening inside of us, and then giving it to the process. We call it double g, giving it to god. Mhmm. Or give it to the process. God owns the process of how life works. We return to living life on life's terms, not saying there's no reason to have a mask at times because there are some people we need to not show ourselves to, but it's called having boundaries. At the same time, we need to have friends who we can tell the truth to. And recovery is about reconnecting with how we're made, reconnecting with others, and really connecting with God. Basically, then we break or snap the back, so to speak, of addiction, which is an attempt to have a full life without having to pay the price of feeling fully. We we we reawaken to feeling fully and, boom. We believe it or not, we are in recovery at that point. From then on, it's about staying connected to how we're made and breaking the connection to, feeling connected without it being real, you know, which is what addiction is. Right on.

Yeah. So we obviously, CP was created in 1996 to, address, as you've said many, many times, you know, the 4 The 4 columns, the four pillars of society. Right? Yeah. Like law, medicine, clergy, education. Yeah. The hell works. The social servants, and then all of the ancillary services that come out of those. You know? Yeah. We were originally created to to make strong, to help gain strength for recovery for Mhmm. The people who are the servants of society, because if they're sick, we all go down. And we I'm kinda leading to a a model that we use, but saying that, but we we rely on these people. We rely on everyone, but certainly as a society as a whole, we rely on these people to have a what we would call to have a really high level of identification with their own identity. Yeah. And we need those people to do that. Yes. We need them to know who they are,

how they're made, whose they are, and then be able to do what they do very authentically and genuinely. And, obviously, as an extension, mommies need to have that, and daddies need to have that, and grandparents, you know, etcetera. But And what we're talking about is to be able to capacity to care and be competent. Those are the two combined forces that connect us to other people. Caring and competence. And and the guys that come in here for the most part have the competence done. Yes. I mean Got it. Masters of competence. And so we have this, model. Actually, we were sitting in your office up in, Grasmere now, man, many years ago. Seven or eight years ago, probably. Oh, gosh. Yeah. And, I saw this bright yellow piece of paper and been kinda stuffed back in the corner of your office for a while. And I asked you about it just I don't know. Something struck me. And we took a look at it, and you said, you know, a little thing. You did it on a napkin or something? No. It was on a piece of legal pad. I just used it occasionally. We get it out and use it paradigm. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like, you guys that have been in CP know that it's a paradigm recovery, and so there's x with these things in it and, you know, and all that stuff. I know what you're smiling about. Yeah. You what? Dodd's paradigm recovery. No. And I was like, oh, sure. No. And I was smiling about yeah. Oh, it's Dodd's Paradigm Recovery. You know, I wanna say you know, but,

I remember you pulled it out of the drawer and you said, what's this? And I explained it to you. I said, well, I show the guys that this is what you're doing here and this is what you're doing. And you said, you idiot, or just actually something worse than that. No. That was idiot. Yeah. Okay. But you idiot. You was like, you you you you idiot. This is incredible. You need to be, you know, this needs to be part of our manual. I said, oh, okay. Really? Okay. Well, let's do it. You know? And it's one of your favorite things. I call it the baseline lecture of what we do. Yeah. If you get a grip, a grasp on your experience of any individual's experience of that model. Yeah. I know CPE guys have it in their imaginations right now Yeah. Up on the board. You know, that x Yeah. Or hourglass looking design thing as you finish it up. That that really, to me, constitutes a very graphic

picture Yeah. Of how we get sick and how we get well or the solutions. How we move into living life on life's terms in a genuine way. Exactly. Which allows us to live with passion, a willingness to be in pain for something that matters more than our own comfort, allows us to live in intimacy, intimacy, or in relationship with others in a in a very real way, and then also allows us to walk with integrity. In other words, we're you know, even though we're works in progress at 1AM, we're the same people we are at 1PM. So this, coming back to self and living who you're made to be connects you with the passion, which is really a form of joy, And intimacy makes life worth living because it's about relationship, and integrity is the quality with which we live in relationships. So it kind of returns us to, you know, what we're made to to

grow into, actually. It's works in progress. So this thing starts with a word we've both said a ton, even today. Yeah. This, thing called self. Yeah. It's like a a little funnel. It's like shaped like a funnel, like there's a v Uh-huh. Underneath the other ones an upside down v Yeah. The v point is the x. Yeah. So it starts out at the very bottom is the self. Uh-huh. The word self. Yep. And that self is created to grow into a bigger self. A person capable of those three things we were talking about, living with the qualities that that make us fully human, remembering that we're works in progress. We're not, human perfection. We're human beings. You know? We're not human doings. We're we're just we're always gonna be people who are in the struggle. But that self is made to grow into a fuller self, to grow up. Mhmm. You know, why we talked about roots, spiritual root system, roots to fruits. Yep. But what happens to people who are, addicted is we've seen year after year after year, a person who is addicted, that self really kinda gets stymied or dwarfed or, held back, developmentally delayed. In other words, they're not allowed to live the freedom. And so that self, instead of growing into, connecting, belonging, and mattering with being affirmed and confirmed by parents, caretakers, teachers, and coaches, what happens is that that that true self gets rejected, and that that's an experience of abandonment. Mhmm. Right? And then abandonment turns into self blame, because the the the idea of being helpless is so so much of a torment. It's so we're so incapable of experiencing ourselves as helpless. We would almost rather see ourselves as the fault than to be helpless over our lives and circumstances. So self blame becomes the reason, quote, unquote, for how come I'm rejected,

or how come my feelings aren't acceptable. If we go back just for a second, what about the person that really and truly has experience of, hey. My parents were at my games or at my recitals. They made a good living. They I mean, I got put to bed at night. Like, I wasn't if anybody in the world wasn't abandoned, I wasn't, and I'm I can't quit drinking. Yeah. Key there. That then you and I have seen this, well, for twenty eight years now. Yep. Some of the tragically sickest people come from what we associate as the best families. Mhmm. But see, the marker between a a, a dysfunctioning or impaired family and a repaired family or a functioning family is the the quality with which they address emotion. And some of the best families are about performance, perfection, going to all the games, doing all the right things, but there's never the time just to to actually deal with the feelings. It's about avoiding feelings. Whatever the family value system is around feelings is where alcoholism is grown or alcoholism never has to grow. It's all about the capacity to process feelings. So some of the best, even most religious families, can be some of the greatest neglectors Mhmm. Of how a person's born to be. So abandonment is not just,

you know, classic, very tragic, but classic story of daddy out all night or didn't care about me or I had to raise myself or nothing like that. It doesn't have to be that. No. In fact, those are the obvious. Research has shown, that the worst form of abuse for a child is emotional and or spiritual neglect. The worst form is is to be, not seen really at all except as a thing or to not be seen at all because that's a suicide message. That's a invisibility message. You don't matter at all, or you only matter because of the way you perform. And if the other people are achieving in the family, then how much more damaging is that to not be able to keep up or to think I'm not valuable as I am? So the worst form of abuse is emotional and spiritual neglect more damaging than physical and sexual abuse. Yeah. Because crazy it sounds, at least I'm seen or at least I'm treated badly, and I I kinda, somewhere inside, know it. Yeah. I know this is happening. Yeah. It's really something. Yeah. So that self,

gets kind of, lost in that kind of abandonment or some kind of abandonment. So the heart is disconnected from one's actions. Yes. And we talked about in earlier podcast denial and dissociation. Abandonment creates a case for the need to dissociate my heart from my actions. Mhmm. So I I start watching to see what I need to do, so so that I will be acceptable. Instead of being myself, I'm watching you to see what I need to do. Right? And there's a name for that. Well, yeah. But, you know, once I'm abandoned, I have an experience called toxic shame. That's the third. That's the second step away from myself. There's self, then abandonment, then toxic shame. Yeah. And toxic shame is and almost everybody knows this now, but toxic shame is contempt towards myself for being human. Because I'm human, which means feeling, needing, desiring, longing, and hoping there's something wrong with me. And so that that shame becomes I shouldn't be myself. I have to become someone else. Mhmm. And the way to become someone else is to watch what other people are looking for and act accordingly. So you go healthy true self at birth, abandonment, toxic shame, and then codependency is the way I go about hiding my toxic shame and making myself acceptable. Yeah. I'll watch you to see what I need to do. Right.

And you and I have been masters of that. I was thinking, but just one quick thing on the toxic shame thing. Back to being masters of that, you know, I've often thought, said, and we've talked about stuff too, that toxic shame becomes a great explanation for the abandonment. Absolutely. Like, I'm what's the reason I keep getting abandoned? Well, it ain't their fault. It's gotta be mine. Yeah. Last time I looked in the mirror, I can understand how come. So then that leads to the codependency looking out here for for who I am or if I'm any good or not and then the the next level. Yeah. You know, toxic shame is a command to have mastered life. Mhmm. I should be able to do this perfectly. I should be able to stop things from happening that I really can't. Mhmm. And an acronym for it is should have already mastered everything. Yeah. Shame. Yeah. And the what's wild is and I know I think I was told that Brene Brown doesn't talk about this or doesn't speak to it at all, but toxic shame is actually being contemptuous towards myself for having healthy shame. And healthy shame is the feeling of neediness. It's the sense of knowing I'm dependent, and I I am not created to be alone. Mhmm. And healthy shame is the neediness feeling. It's the recognition that I make mistakes and so do you. I'm not god, and and neither are you. I need you. You need me. I don't have all the answers, but I have some. So why don't we share? You know? I have tears. You have tears. I have laughter. You have laughter. So we become toxically ashamed of our healthy human being makeup. So hiding feelings, shame tells us to hide feelings. Shame tells us toxic shame tells us to hide needs. Mhmm. Toxic shame tells us to hide desire. In fact, we have a guy here now, though his big thing is I'm gonna hide anger. Oh, yeah. Because if if I show you my anger, you've gotten to me. Mhmm. And then I'll become needy, so I'm gonna play out the string, so to speak, because I trust no one to care about what matters to me. That's toxic shame. Toxic shame. So we start with the self.

The child gets abandoned, serially abandoned. Toxic shame appears at least to explain, oh, okay. Now I know. Leads to codependency, looking externally, and then where? Codependency is a a form of it's a set of compulsive behaviors that, allow me to, reduce or, admit, what not reduce or anesthetize my anxiety. Yeah. Because once I'm toxically ashamed, I'm I'm vigilant. I'm hypervigilant. Mhmm. I I feel fearful of having boundaries. I feel fearful of telling people the truth. I fear fear feel fearful of thinking the truth, But it's really I've judged myself as less than or worthless or inadequate or incompetent, and I'm judging you also as judging me as incompetent and worthless. So because I'm rejected by myself, I also am sure you will do the same thing unless I act a certain way. So the actions I take to make sure you're good with me are the things that, I do to try to control you. And if I can get your mood in a certain place or if I can, quote, make you, unquote, act a certain way, then my anxiety goes away. So it's a form of enmeshment. And then that that becomes an addictive reactive process. I mean, it's just automatic. It's intoxicating that kind of power. It it really is. And codependency is often associated with success. The people pleaser, so many guys we've treated for years, their codependency translates into success by being people pleasers, caretakers, achievement oriented, and approval seekers. And they're great at it Mhmm. And, become successful in it. But at the same time, it doesn't really meet needs. It actually leaves a person lonely, alone, and exhausted. So that's the primary addiction, is trying to make myself worth something. Okay? Yeah. To get relief from having to do all of that work, that's when what we think of as addiction proper kicks in. Yeah. Alcohol is a relief from codependency. Drugs drug use is a relief from codependency. Mhmm. Believe it or not, an anxiety disorder is a relief from having to seek approval of others because I'm too sick to be able to caretake. Yeah. Depression can even be a way of escaping codependency. We can become, believe it or not, addicted to depressive symptomology. Mhmm. And then finally, too, a personality disorder is a way to quell codependency, becoming a fixed demand that the world operate in a certain way is a way to numb feelings. Yes. So from alcohol to personality disorders are all forms of quelling and getting rest from and relief from having to be hypervigilant,

having to be on all the time. Yeah. Often and that's part of my story too. Often, in my case, it was alcohol and other stuff later, but alcohol becomes or whatever it is becomes that thing where I go, man, I can finally have my say, or I can finally not give a voice. That kind of deal. That's highly intoxicating. So that's kind of the from the from the basis of having a self all the way up to this thing we're talking about now, addiction, anxiety, depression. And that's where, you know, you and I have talked a lot about and this is this is a a generalization that has a whole lot of people in it accurately. So there is addiction that we just named. Mhmm. Addiction, anxiety addiction, depression addiction, and personality disorder addiction, and then addiction proper. Yeah. You know? I mean, there are addicts. There are recovering people, and there are people who, frankly, can't get well without, society taking care of them is the best way to say it. Yes. But recovery requires that we we return to how we're made. Yeah. Okay? So the first thing, forget recovery, is the arresting of the primary problem has to occur. That's when we start to flip this paradigm upside down. Yep. Right? Go to the bottom of the x, so to speak. So where self was small, now addiction's gonna become small. We you've got to address addiction Mhmm. Because it becomes a primary, biological, physiological, compulsive set of actions a person takes, or else they've lost choice. And this this comes into play for

some some of you out there maybe listening, being therapists or other kinds of helpers, pastors. People will often wonder professionals will wonder, you know, I'm working with this couple, or I'm working with this person, and they are not they're not getting better. Mhmm. And sometimes one of the reasons is they're still drinking. Yes. Or they're still acting out sexually. Like, Your depression and anxiety is is going to remain no matter how great the therapy is if you're not dealing with this disease of addiction. And it's true. Yeah. If There's in other words, that's how come we talk about the primary. When you turn that paradigm upside down, that primary thing becomes arresting that. Whatever we've used to have control over, numbing ourselves Yes. Or not being affected is addictive in its, in its qualities. And it becomes the primary disease. So getting the addiction into, sobriety really requires, reawakening to need, pouring the heart into the 12 steps or into the beatitudes or into a process of reconnecting in ways that that other people can say this is addiction. Mhmm. This is slavery, and there's a way out of it. But but it starts with admitting powerlessness. So addiction becomes small by dealing with powerlessness, surrender, the the the power greater than ourselves, god doing for us what we can't do for ourselves, and then giving ourselves to god. And then we have the security to really take a fearless look at, you know, what our behaviors have cost us. You know? Yeah. So then after that, we start to address the codependency because codependency is the thing we need relief from. Mhmm. It's how can we go into the other addictive behaviors. So you really you can't get really I consider strong recovery without addressing, you know, our approval seeking addiction. Yeah. You know?

The fear that if I don't perform, I'm not gonna be cared about. Yes. So so in other words, just if you're tracking that we're it almost goes, like, the opposite direction. Yeah. We started with a self at the top, how to get how we get sick, ended up with addiction. The healing starts with the addiction. Deal with that. Yes. Arrest it as you said. Yes. And then we can start talking about codependency. How are you living your life with this external focus? Yeah. Because if alcoholism is the only issue, then you put the plug in the jug because they say you're done, but that is not it. Alcohol alcoholism sobriety or any other addiction sobriety sets us up to be able to move into the true solution Mhmm. Which is about the reawakening process to how I'm made, who I'm made to be, and what I'm made to do. So then the codependency recovery is about getting your voice back, the voice of your heart, learning how to speak what's really going on inside of you, set boundaries, know the difference between enmeshment, recognize what anxiety is about, look at how we depress, how we're made, all of those sorts of things, which means dealing with stepping into dealing with how we interact with people and facing our control issues. Mhmm. After the codependency behavior, we step into toxic shame Mhmm. Which is which is the gasoline that drives the engine of codependency. Right? I said ever. Yeah. And toxic shame, then we've got to go very deeply into family of origin. The family of origin is where we tragically, unintentionally, most of the time very accidentally, but still because the addictive processes are very powerful, toxic shame is discovered in the families of origin. I mean, that's just where it is. I mean, it's not an indictment on any level. But you deal with the family of origin in terms of where you came from is is how you started to think of yourself, and then everyone else adds on, whether it's coaches, teachers, uncles, aunts, friends, peer groups. It's just a a pile up of that, wouldn't you say? That's for sure.

And so we the that that's to me, in in my head, I I see this little tiny bridge when we draw it up on the board. Yeah. Little tiny bridge, abandonment and toxic shame, family of origin. Yeah. That's that's where that And then all of a sudden, my abandonment's frankly put. It's still there in terms of the fear. You know, I carry a fear inside of me, for example, that still some part of me would not be surprised if Sonya walked into the room one day and said, by the way, I've been thinking I don't love you anymore. I'm leaving. I mean, just of course you don't. I've been waiting for this for a long time. Exactly. Yeah. Boy, Sonia, I'm really shocked. I've been prepared for all this time. But see, that's that little that that abandonment fear that we still carry. And, inside of that is a distrust that we really can be loved.

Oh, yeah. Heck, yeah. But still, we're gonna carry that, that that there's fear involved in that, and at the same time, we're very capable in the midst of that of saying something very daring like, hey, Phil. Man, I'm I'm really hurting today. I'm struggling with so and so. Tell me what you think. Tell me what you see, or even tell me that you care. Do you know there's something along those lines? And then what happens next is that the true self has returned and is growing according to all the, hydration and oxygenation that makes the roots flourish. The tree is getting leaves and limbs and fruit is coming. And in the process of that, you have what is called a a big fat self. In other words, you get you get yourself back. Now a lot of people think of that as, oh, so this whole thing's about narcissism or self centeredness, and the answer is heck no. So the big the big fat self is actually I have I'm I'm I'm I'm faced how I'm made, I'm faced who I'm made to be, and I'm faced what I'm made to do, so I'm actually giving myself away. Mhmm. Everyone is gifted, and there's a world in need. And so when we return to who we're made to be, we belong and matter as we are, but it doesn't mean we don't have something to give. But first, I've got to reawaken to who I'm made to be so I can go do what I'm made to do. And I feel I've known you for you know, here in in Tennessee for thirteen years. And, you know, we've we've worked side by side for a long time, and I've watched you just, you know, from from the early days of, in some ways, I would say not quite fully trusting your giftedness to just frankly put exploding with giftedness. And, you mean, I can I can truly say, sometimes you like it more than other times, but you are amazingly doing one of the things you're made to do? And it's directly connected to the self rising, would you not say? For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It it giftedness

yeah. It's almost like it can't whatever it is, a person's giftedness cannot help but be exposed as more self is exposed. Yes. And that's Yeah. And we're created to have a big self to give it away, because the more I have, the more I can give. Right? So so once you get down to that self, it stays forever. Right? You can never struggle again. Just just No. You don't, obviously. I've watched you know this. Yeah. Of course not. Yeah. And you know I don't. Oh, lord. No. But, you know, at that point, we're literally capable Mhmm. Of living very well with other WIPs. Works in progress. That's right. You know? In fact, guys, there's a parenting book is coming out called, Parenting with Heart? Parenting with Heart. Yeah. There's a new book coming out called Parenting with Heart in October. It's about how imperfect parents can raise full hearted children, which is exactly what we're talking about. And, I'm really expecting that to be pretty, pretty, pretty important for people who have faced that they are human. Yeah. And therefore, the best we're ever going to get is good enough. Mhmm. And it turns out that according to research, good enough is good enough. Yeah. And that's all we're ever gonna be. That's right. Because I'm not God. I'm in need of God. I'm human, and thank God I get to tell God, you know, who I am and God can say, and and you're exactly who you need to be. Yeah. I'll be God and you be Chip.

Yeah. Good trade off. Yeah. So, just real real brief, like, a one minute, synopsis of what we talked about. That's a big it's a big thing. Like, the solution thing is a picture baseline picture from from a small identification with self through abandonment, toxic, shame, codependency, and ultimately the addictive process, we call it, and the healing coming almost the opposite direction. Start with that primary disease Mhmm. That'll lead you to deal with the codependency, that deals with us dealing with our toxic shame Mhmm. Pushes us into our family of origin memories and experiences and exiting, if you will, with a really much deeper recognition of self. Yeah. With more to give because we've been more places too. Right on. But we're out we're out from under the sediment. I mean, this true self never gets to flourish because it's buried under abandonment, shame, codependency, and addiction. Yeah. So by addressing the addiction, peeling off the codependency, it's about digging ourselves up so we can reawaken, be reborn, and grow into who we're made to be. Right on. So and I'm thankful for that.

Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast on addiction. For more information on the paradigm of recovery that Chip and Phil discussed in this episode, visit www.chipdodd.com. There you can find various resources, including a one hour lecture from Chip on this topic.