On Addiction - Needs

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast on addiction with Dr. Chip Dodd and Phil Herndon. This is a new weekly podcast recorded at the Center for Professional Excellence. Hey, everybody. Welcome back in to the Sage Hill podcast. This is Phil Herndon along with Chip Dodd. Hello, Chip. And do you know Alex? Phil's yelling today, but it's great. I love it when he yells. Holy cow. So as you see, not one thing has changed, and we're consistent as ever. So glad you're with us today. We have been not over. No? Oh, really? No. No. We never this is the raw deal. Let's do it. Let's do it. Get it. Alright. Let's do it. I apologize for my friend's intrusion, and I'm sorry for that. Of course you are. So I'm not a professional like Phil, so I'm just winging it here. And, Phil's got the stuff, so let's go. He's got the chops. You know what I'm saying?

Let's go. Wow. So glad you're here whether you are or not after all that. And, we've been talking about addiction. We're gonna keep talking about addiction for quite a while. And, started way back on the pandemic nature of things, how huge this deal is. And last time we talked through this model called the paradigm. It starts with self and ends, for lack of a better term, on the top end with addiction, anxiety, depression, and working your way through to health again, to wholeness, end up with a big, big self. And then kind of to set that up, we talked about spiritual root system, those five roots, you know, that make us go, make humans go, the statement about being spiritual, emotional creatures, created to live fully in your relationship. And so, we you and Stephen have done a series, actually, on the feelings. Right? One at a time, pod several podcasts to go, and Yeah. Those are easy to access. I really encourage you to go back and listen to those if you need a refresher. It's like podcast, '90 it's around the nineties. Right? It's like '89, '90 or something. Yeah. Go go give those a listen for those that would like kind of a little refresher. But so we talked about a couple of times ago how we have feelings and those eight feelings and we that, opens us up and really kinda automatically opens it up to this idea of being needy or neediness. So let's start real real basic. Like, go through, to begin with, this little series we're doing. What what is a need? What what is it even made of? Yeah. You know, if I want to just I want to backtrack just a little bit

about, the paradigm where we ended up was, you know, the development of self, a big self. And I wanna reiterate to everyone who's listening that it's not self for the purpose of self. It's self so that a person can give himself or give herself away. So it's it's very, very, very far from sort of the concentration on self centeredness. It's about the attainment of being who you're made to be so you can do what you're made to do. And a person who's doing what they're made to do honestly cannot help but become creative or, you know, fully participate, and that means adding to life. So, the very idea that when you put yourself second below God so you can, you know, fill up on who God is, it actually allows us to have a lot more to offer. So, anyway, I wanted to make sure that was clear. And then the spiritual root system, we talk very clearly that that you and I are created as emotional and spiritual creatures, and neuroscience and the historical literature continues to point how we're created. And we find fulfillment. We're here to live fully, and we find living fully through relationship because that's the way humans are created. And it's amazing how addiction is an attempt to find a way around how we're created. Addiction is an impaired attempt that works for quite a while, by the way. It's an impaired attempt Sure does. To find full life without having to pay the price of feeling fully or the cost. You're not having to pay the price of what living fully costs, which means the willingness to feel fully. So there's there's really no way around if you're gonna do recovery or if you're gonna be freed from the slavery of addiction, which is exactly what addiction means. It means slavery. The only way to address recovery is through returning to how we're created, which is back to starting with feelings. And we have found out, of course, how intricately connected feelings are to needs because feelings awaken us to needs. Mhmm. For example, sadness, before we define what needs are just to make a logical connection, sadness is a feeling we have whenever we lose something that we care about, that matters to us. In other words, sadness is a feeling that exposes attachment Uh-huh. Or connection, which is we're created to connect. We're created to attach. And whenever we lose that which we're attached to, we will have a feeling inborn into us called sadness. Sadness, though, also awakens us to a need. We have the need to grieve, to to wash loss out of us so we can take a risk of attaching again, a risk of hoping again, or, sadness also awakens us to the need, for attention, the need to be listened to, and the need to trust, which we'll talk about as we go through the series on needs. So feelings are so vital to us because they awaken us to needs, and needs are vital to us because a need is something we have to have fulfilled or we will not be fully alive. We'll survive but not be fully alive. Another way of saying that is needs are things that have to be fulfilled or we will die. Yeah. You you say in this little book, the needs of the heart,

the, the first page of the first chapter, page nine, you you say in here, the most important step in living a full life is to become good at being needy. Yeah. Yeah. One of the a pejorative word word that's almost always associated with critical, shame, being belittled, the experience of being humiliated is neediness. In fact, historically, even in our growing up, it was associated with somehow like personality defectiveness. Oh, yeah. You know? So actually, neediness is the capacity to know what you need, to take responsibility for expressing what you need, and going to the the proper places to have that need fulfilled. So, I mean, neediness is actually a form of strength and courage. It's exposure of hunger so I can be filled, so I can have the strength to go live a little longer, you know, fight a little farther, extend myself a little bit more than I would have been able to do otherwise. Mhmm. We've got to eat to live. We've got to have our needs met to, be able to express who we're made to be. Yeah. Right on. So

I get asked a question once in a while. Okay. So what do I do? I'm, like, go to a dark room and home a lot, or do I walk around and look for somebody help so I know what neediness looks like? I mean, what what what it like how how do you begin doing that? And, you know, you know, a lot of people say, you know, what's the difference between a need and and a want? I mean, wants are things that, were add ons. They are the luxuries of life, the things that we're also grateful for, serendipitous serendipitous experiences. Wants have to do with I would prefer roast beef rather than chicken, or I prefer a gray car rather than a blue car. A need is food, for example. So, and then to begin to recognize our neediness starts with, the the admission of being human. I mean, the acknowledgment that I'm incapable of having a full life without you, God, you know, others in my life to to help fulfill me. And so the word for that admission is called confession. And you're the one that taught me years ago that confession means to admit or agree that I'm human. Is that right? To be in agreement with. Yeah. To be in agreement with. And really, it's like I'm human and that's what I am, who I am, and that's what I'm made to be. It also acknowledges in some level that there's something other than me. I mean, that perhaps I came from somewhere or I'm created. So it's almost like confession is also an acknowledgment of not being god, at least. Right? Or that maybe there is a god. But confession is an open expression of admission that I am human. And with that comes the the acknowledgment that to be human is to feel, to be human is to need, to be human is to, also the capacity to hope and and desire and long, which we talked about in the spiritual root system podcast. Mhmm. So

we're we're living life. I've become aware of having feelings, like, in the beginning of recovery. Yeah. Put in that you know, start my recovery process. Whole thing begins with, you know, admitting powerlessness, which is a very vulnerable, needy place to be. I remember the first time I uttered those words, I thought I was gonna die. Yeah. Yeah. Admit I'm an alcoholic and, you know, choke choke me. Yeah. You say, okay. How do you start? Confession. Just let somebody else know that in your humanness, you're in need. Yeah. You're in need of relationship. Yeah. And and and the two the two greatest needs I mean, just think of the the simplistic analogy of a a tree in in a root bag. You know, they had the, you know, the burlap around the tree, and it sits there. And it can you can it can be watered, and it will survive a long time, but it's not getting to do what it's made to do. It's not getting to be in the ground connected to what gives it food. The expansion of the roots into the dirt, capacity to take in more water, expand upwards because of the room underneath, the power from within, it's being fed, and it grows up into the tree it's it's created to be based on DNA. Mhmm. So, I mean, the roots drink. Human beings, we're not made to live on dirt and water and sunshine only, of course, but we're created to find food. The food for a human being is emotional and spiritual. Connection. Nurturing. Mhmm. So, needs of the human is the the the two primary needs of a human being is the need to belong and the need to matter. These are the two primary relational needs. The need to belong is to be accepted, cared about for who I am, which really means, an expressive, emotional, spiritual creature to who I am. I am a feeling creature made up of feelings, needs, desire, longings, and hope, and the ability to have a voice in those things. So the basic sense of belonging is I can be who god created me to be without having to be toxically ashamed. And you described, you know, the first time you said, I've got a need. I'm powerless. Mhmm. I I'm gonna die. So, like, but by admitting that I have a need, I will no longer belong, and I won't matter, which speaks to, you know, yesterday or the day before, we talked about the the paradigm of recovery. We start covering up our neediness Mhmm. Because of shame, and we start to perform for others so we can have our needs met. Like, I will belong as long as I perform. But the true need of belonging is I will belong because it's who I am. Yeah. And I can say who I am, The Voice of the Heart or the needs of of the heart. The second most the second primary need is the need to matter. The need to matter is I am appreciated and affirmed for what I bring directly related to who I am. Each of us has, different extensions of our expression, different interests related to how we're born temperamentally and what our our drifts are towards. You know, the old proverb says raise up a child based upon the bent of the child Mhmm. Based upon the child being recognized as mattering for their interest, for their curiosity, for the direction they're headed. So raise up a child based upon the bent of the child and then when the child is of age, which means sort of, you know, young adult, adolescent, they will not depart from how they're made. In other words, they they they are who they're made to be, and they know what their interest in matters. They've been affirmed and confirmed. The need to matter that they're gonna make a difference in the world they're gonna add to won't be left behind. It to me, it it's it's it's astounding. The two primary needs of the human being as powerful or maybe sometimes more powerful than food, water, shelter, and clothing, more powerful than just straight up biology is the need to belong and the need to matter. And you and I have talked on numerous times. You know, if the Department of Human Services comes in Mhmm. And takes away a child from an abusive parent, clearly abusive, all society would say that child does not need to be with that parent, that caregiver, that caretaker. And that child will either dissociate so deeply because they they can they cannot even conceive of losing the parent. They cannot even conceive that this person doesn't want me. Yeah. Or they will cling and cry and grasp and and and go wild, so to speak, in in in grief because they want to stay with the very person who's actually harming them, rejecting them, belittling them, and humiliating them because we're created so much for connection. We're so created to belong and matter that we'll give up food, water, shelter, and clothing. Look at the numbers of us in our lives who've kept secrets from in their family families of origin and covered up really some pretty deadly circumstances. Uh-huh. You know, we cover up for parents. Parents cover up for children. I mean, it just I mean and but everybody's keeping secrets, but it's controlled by the fear of what will happen. I won't belong, and I won't matter if I let this be known. So the spiritual root system of the human being begins to starve, unless the need to belong and the need to matter, is addressed as we're created. But you know what? If I can't belong and if I can't matter as I'm created, the need is so powerful, I'll find another way to get it met. I'll try to become somebody else to belong in matter, and that's where the loss of self starts to occur. And the and the preeminence of performance. The preeminence of performance over presence. Uh-huh. Yeah. That's a Can you remember, like, in your growing up years, you know, there was a time when, you know, you were Phil, and then you became Phil of another name. You know? I mean, you because, you know, you talk about the the number of moves you guys made. Mhmm. You were in in was it seven seven towns in how many years?

I don't remember the number of towns, but it it was nine schools in twelve years. Sometimes the school is in the same town. Do you do you remember you said when y'all finally landed in Kansas for a period of time, you figured out how to use your southern accent to belong and matter Oh, yeah. And you learned how to speak Kansan. Yep. Or it is it, Kansan? Yeah. Okay. Okay. You learn how to speak Kansan. Uh-huh. So you'd fit in. You learn how to adapt. Oh, yeah. So, you know Rooting for the Kansas City Royals, and I hated them. Yeah. But hell, yeah. It's a whole that duplicity and the false role, all the all the things we've heard in in pop psychology and psych guys like us have heard in formal training of false self, ego self, false roles, all that stuff Yeah. Has to do with Yeah. Oh, I can remember, you know,

just coaches. I mean, it's like if if you do this, you're gonna matter. And I can remember what was amazing, the need to matter, need to belong, so powerful to me they they would hold out a carrot, and, man, I'd run to the carrot. And as soon as I get close to the carrot, the carrot goes up higher. So, you know, that's where we develop the the ladder of performance. But Mhmm. I learned early, you perform and and you please and you achieve, you're gonna be recognized. And recognition for performance becomes a, what's it called? A, you know, a, substitute or it's counterfeit. Yeah. It's a counterfeit form of getting the need to belong in matter, man. My son graduated college Saturday, and the the the speech was really good. Like, they're very esteemed guest. It was really good, and yet throughout that whole speech, you know, you're graduates of college now, and the message was go and make a difference Yeah. Through your performance. I mean, that's not what he intended maybe. Yeah. The entire thing was around go be a difference maker, go be impactful,

rather than go be yourself. Yeah. It was, you know Yeah. And you know and you and I both are clearly aware of the need to perform. Mhmm. In other words, get the job done. But what for, and where are we coming from when we do it? I remember I've told this story many times about the, the Harvard dean of the business school. Yeah. I went up there to watch a friend of mine graduate, and, you know, I'm Middle Tennessee State University, Ole Miss, and University of North Texas. You know? And, so I was expecting to hear something that helped me feel more ashamed. From Harvard. From Harvard. Of all places. Oh my gosh. You know? So I'm sitting there ready to be bored and ashamed already. So I'm already prepped. Right? Like, I don't belong, and I'm not gonna matter here because I don't have the the chops or the goods or the performance capacity. So but he said the most amazing thing, unlike that, the guy that was, you're describing. He said, you guys will go out and do great things in the world, but if you're not successful within the walls of your own home, you have failed. And I remember I've spoken, but my jaw dropped. Like, I didn't expect to hear anything. Mm-mm. I didn't expect to hear anything I believed. I've been in recovery for a long, long time, and I was so thrilled to hear this person say, all of you people who think you're gonna make yourself somebody through performance, you're mistaken. Mhmm. And unless you have a home within, a home within your own heart, 18 inches below your forehead, and unless you're able to confess how you're made within the walls of your own home with the people who matter most, you haven't succeeded. Greatness begins within, and then greatness begins with being able to communicate belonging and mattering to the people who matter to you. Mhmm. That was

that was just wonderful to hear. You know? For sure, and surprising. And and and wonderfully surprising. So we kinda start right in the corner here to end. There's a reason that you would say that that you say and that we teach that we have we have a lot of needs. We're gonna go through them, but that these two are like the headwaters. Yeah. Belonging and mattering is is the beginning. All the other needs sit on those two. Mhmm. Yeah. They absolute absolutely do. Yeah. And, you know, the the the feelings and the needs are so important, but even feel even the even those are just the beginning. The point isn't feelings. Feelings are tools, and they're just eight. This is not hyper complex. What's hyper complex is our defensiveness. Yeah. What's hyper complex is how we we become unconscious. What's what's complex and perplexing is we can have the opportunity of vulnerability right in front of us, and we'll walk away from it to go, miss miss what we could have. It's like a banquet table right in front of us, and we return to our porridge Mhmm. Because we're certain that if I reach in vulnerability through confession that I'm needy, if I reach to need the banquet table, which we're made for, we're made to belong in a in in connected group, the feast of living, the feast of being in relationship. The certainty is if I reach for that and I get my hand slapped or I have the chairs pulled out from under me or it's a mirage, the pain of being human again is so great that porridge is best. Heck, yeah. At least it's something. I've said that a million times. At least it's something. At least it's something. Mhmm. And then we get all of these foolish axioms from making sure we don't reach for the banquet table. Like, that's watering the bridge. Don't let it bother you. Mhmm. Don't cry over spilled spilled milk, which means don't have the need to grieve. Mhmm. If you can't run with the big dogs, get on the porch, which means if you can't hang, if you're not tough, if you've got a problem, or you have to perform well You can't perform well. Yeah. Or if you're not the league dog, the view never changes referring to the, Aditaron. Sled racing. Yeah. The sled racing. Well, you clear message. Yeah. You're looking straight into the territory you don't wanna look into. Right? Correct. So all these sayings are actually a way of supporting keeping life complex, beyond reach, beyond livable. Mhmm. You know? And we know that that life is tragic and god is faithful, but life is livable here even though it's gonna also be tragic here. It can be full and still sad. Boom. We've been given tools. Yeah. Eight feelings, about 12 to 14 needs, the the rudiment of just the energy of desire, four longings, and one giant hope. This is not, rocket science Uh-huh. Except

to a you know? You know what I'm saying? But the complexity of staying away really is. So Isn't it? So we're we've covered the kind of headwaters of needs. The next few times, we'll be going through one need at a time, just taking a look at them, opening them up. They're as you've said before, they're words really consistent with human experience. They're not brand new concepts. So Yeah. This needs of the heart book, I I know people will suggest I'm being promotional, and I'm not. I'm hoping to attract, because we we so believe in this material. The person that edited the book is very, very familiar with psychology, theology, sociology. I mean, just going down the list. And he said, in the process of editing that there was nothing like this piece of literature or piece of, description. He says nothing like it in the field. So, that was impressive to me. So I'm hoping that people will get this little book, Needs of the Heart, and just so you'll know what it is you're confessing so you could be more in touch or in tune with being able to be successful within the walls of your own home. And look, reality is you're gonna need to do it for yourself because you're valuable and you're important and you're honoring creation that way. But there are people in your life who need you to be needy and need you to have your needs filled so that you have something to pour out upon them. So I don't say do it for others, but do it also because others are in the world with you and love you. That's right. That would be a great outgrowth. Yeah. And thanks for doing this, Phil. Yeah, man. Enjoyed it. We'll, join us next time if you would. Thanks for listening today, and we will see you soon. Look forward to it. See you later, Phil.