On Addiction: The Badlands

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast on addiction with Dr. Chip Dodd and Phil Herndon. This is a new weekly podcast recorded at the Center for Professional Excellence. Welcome in to the podcast. I'm Phil Herndon, clinical director of Center for Professional Excellence, now in Murfreesboro, Tennessee at the JourneyPure at the River campus. JourneyPure Center for Professional Excellence. Sir, alongside, Chip Dodd, founder and executive director of CPE, where, got a podcast put together for, those interested in and familiar with and and, who love CPE, and we're just really glad to be able to do this. We want to put something together for people several different kinds of people, I guess you would say. Folks who are familiar with CPE, who have been walking those hallowed halls, and and then folks who are in recovery, and those who know 12, and those who are interested. We which kinda brings me to a kind of a topic we've already talked about a little bit just between our between us for years now is this idea of, CPE being a place where people can come and get recovery from addiction of different kinds, process addictions and substance addictions and things like that, but also recovery of recovery of a life God intended them to have. So you kinda take it from there if you would. That's you're you're the first person I've ever heard say that. Actually, the only person I've ever heard say that unless somebody was repeating you. Mhmm. So I know that's in the that was in the DNA of CPE. We've talked in earlier podcast about, you know, the the form forming of of CPE and our relationship and all, but that's one thing that I remember from those days, you know, this this idea of there's more to recovery than just, you know, plug in the jug, as I said. Yeah. Yeah. It's true indeed, isn't it? You know, something you mentioned to me when we were changing over from,

moving from our office that where we I've been twenty one years, you'd been in the twelve years. We were taking down our board that had the history of everyone who's in treatment at that time and so on. And you you noted to me again that above the board, we have the the titles. And instead of the word patient on our board, you told me you were always impressed from the beginning that I had always written the word person. Mhmm. And I literally had never noticed that I wrote the word person Yeah. Because, that's exactly who I am, you are, and that's exactly who we treat. And that's not to denigrate the the, you know, the the formal title or to disregard, you know, the legitimate illness, but still, it's a person with a problem. It's a person with an illness. Do you know? For sure. So and that that to me is what I always wanna hang on to to represent what I believe I needed, you needed, and I believe that, frankly, put everyone, at least who's gonna be a part of what we're doing, is in need of. Mhmm. So I started CPE with the the concept. It's recovery from what ails us. And and I I I use the phrase ails us because, while there is a a sickness, there's also a, sort of a an ailing, a pain underneath the sickness, whether it's biological, social, marital. There's still that ailing. Mhmm. So it's not just recovery from, but it's the recovery of who you're made to be so you can do what you're made to do. And do you know, addiction in its, a re trying to have a real meaning for addiction, it's an impaired attempt. It's not a badness. I mean, it becomes a destroyer. But what it was, what a person's involved in before it becomes the sickness, it's an impaired attempt to have the life we're made to have without having to pay the price of feeling fully Mhmm. Or pay the price of having to feel everything we've got to feel to live fully, to love deeply, and to lead well the lives we're made to live. So there's and and I've heard of I always attributed this quote to Joseph Campbell, but I I'm not sure it is actually him, but we'll never say no to what harms us until we have something to say yes to. Mhmm. So that recovery from, to have recovery of is that statement. And, like, say yes to to really how you're made. Say yes to what you left behind. Say yes to in in terms of the dreams and wishes and desires we leave behind and try to just survive life or just, you know, get through it. But, one of the things that that, you know, when you came on, you were already attuned to this. I mean, when you read The Voice of the Heart, you you just it was it was a duck in water. I mean, you you'd like you said, I it it's like you could have written it. You've known it your whole life and just forgot the actual tune that it went with or, I guess, the melody maybe or what, you know, the whatever whatever.

Me and your music. Forget it. Why don't you and I not do music? We know what it sounds like. Yeah. I don't know how to name it. But, I would sometimes I get made fun of, you know, some guys coming in, but we and I you and I are clear as a bell that human beings, predominantly, if they're capable of, you know, constitution capable of honesty Mhmm. That we were impaired by relationship. We had a need to run away from paying the price of feeling fully. And because we're made to live one way or another, we found a substitute fashion to do it, which becomes addiction. And it could be addiction to control, alcohol, drugs, sex, you know, cosmetics, work, religion, exercise. I mean, anything that that we do to take us away from dealing with our feelings. Do you know? Yeah. Isolation is is a a prime a prime example of something that is actually an addictive process. You know? Avoiding whatever I gotta do to avoid being known. So, anyway, we become impaired through relationship, and we become repaired through relationship. And we created CPE to be a reparative place, not to be ashamed of, but a return to what we're made to do. And you and I knew from the very beginning that whoever comes to CPE, you and I are not in charge in terms of, we're not in control rather. Right. But, and the the story that that was so meaningful to me that that mattered, so much because I knew it was what I needed, and I I know it's what I received. I think it you know it's what you received, but we used to use this, we still do. But, like, anybody comes to CPE, you guys out there that came to CPE, you know, you may have heard me tell you that you're the captain of the cavalry. And, you came up to the edge of the badlands that you couldn't get across. And, you attempted before because you know that fulfillment of your mission is on the other side of that stretch of land that you just can't cross. So you kinda ride up on your horse and look down at, one of us sitting by our adobe, in a chair, old ladder back chair, and you look down off your horse and say, hey. Hey, little man. You know the way across these badlands? And, we say, yeah. Sure do. And then it's sort of a stalemate at that point in terms of the expectation that one of us is just gonna get up and immediately attend, like, as if you've asked for help versus just asking if we know what we're doing. And then, finally, it turns into, well, will you show me? And the answer is yes. So we say, yes. I'll show you. When it's time to walk, we'll walk. When it's time to run, we'll run. And you'll quit before we quit because, we don't quit, and we know the way across this this place. We also say that when it's time for you to go into the hole and grieve your guts out, we'll hold the ladder and promise you that there's a way up and a way out. When it's time for you to rest, finally, after years and years of always sort of, minimally sleeping with one eye open, you'll be able to shut your eyes for the first time in a long time because we're gonna watch out over you, and we're gonna watch out for you at the same time. When we say that that water is poisonous, don't drink it. Wait five minutes if we say there's fresh water ahead. And then if you will do that, not put your hand in the hole where we say there's a rattlesnake, don't drink poisonous water, hang on. There's a point at which you're gonna come up this last bluff, this last sort of, like, dusty red clay climb up to the top of the plateau. You're gonna look out what out over what we always called the Great Plains when it was full of grass, tall grass. And you're gonna look at me, and I'm gonna look at you, and you're gonna say, is this it? And, I'll say, this is it. And you say, where do I go? I say, well, the it's in your saddlebags. The mission's in your saddlebags. So take a look at that. And then, I'll say, well, whoever it is that you're to meet, they're waiting on you because god has it designed already. And then, I'll say, I'm gonna watch you until you disappear into the grass. And after that, I wanna slide back and go wait upon the next captain that, comes across. We're just guides. Mhmm. We're not in control, but we're in charge. And at the same time, every single one of us needs somebody in our lives to guide us across places we don't know how to get across. So it's amazing how that recovery of is a return to our natural neediness Mhmm. Return to asking for help, a return to saying, yes. I need to be cared about. And we can talk about that too a ton. I mean, you and I could do a whole podcast on how the frontal lobe is saying, is it safe? Is it safe? But the limbic system is asking, do you care? Do you care? And is it safe enough for me to say, do you think you could care? The people who get trapped up in addiction, I mean, the self contempt that we end up having for ourselves is just overwhelming. And the the the you know, we lose contact with the people who speak needs. We don't even you know, you you and I talked tons. Thirty years ago, if I had heard somebody telling me what you and I are talking about right now, what would you say? No.

No way. Like, from Mars. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna stick my hand in that hole whether you're tetbing a snake in it or not. I'm gonna drink this water if I want it right now. You go to sleep, I'll tell me what to do. Or I'll pretend. Uh-huh. You know? I'll pretend. But we we just wanna help people. Honestly, we take it for granted you're gonna do recovery from. Mhmm. I mean, that to me is just assumed if a person's in treatment with us. And so we start we start, majoring in both territories immediately. We major in recovery from. Yeah. At the same time, we're approaching the yes, saying no to what's killing you, and we're going after that yes from the very beginning. And, most guys have forgotten. Most guys have spent their lives ignoring it. I say guys because, real frankly, you know, CPE ended up being a men's treatment center, so we sort of accidentally say he and Right. Guys and all that all the time. But, this also everything we're saying applies to to women too, of course Mhmm. In terms of, we're all fearful of of exposing, sharing, and, letting our hearts be known again. And we you and I both know without that happening, there is there's no life in life.

You know? So Right on. Yeah. That's such a great picture. You know? I I've told the the metaphorical story of the Badlands. I've heard you, sat with you many times telling people that there's something about that picture of it's dangerous. It's, you know, it's territory I've that that I've long forgotten or haven't gone to at all or, you know, it's all this all this energy and feelings and memories and stuff I've it's like that movie, The Kid. A lot of CPE guys remember that movie doing that. You know, the kid you know, the Bruce Willis character says, gosh. I've spent my whole life trying to forget this ever happened. Yeah. Talking about his childhood. Yes. You know? And so those badlands, these guys walk into the start walking through that. Everything they've lived so long to stay away from is all of a sudden back. Yeah. But I love watching them, walking with them as they realize they're not alone in it. Yeah. They keep walking. Yeah. Ain't that amazing too, Phil, that the very person that

god created, the very person we couldn't help but be, you know, that we were powerless over is that child. And, that that child is the creator, the wanderer. The that child is the one in need. The child is the one that does the feelings. The child is one that has the mission in in his or her life, in their hearts. And wants to go do it. Yes. And he gets he gets put off in a saddlebag, and it gets turned into something delayed. But, I mean, it's the child that is despised because the child is the one that carries not only the dream that we despise, because we try to give up on it and carries the vulnerability that we despise because it shows our neediness to live in relationship. Mhmm. So, yeah, it's trying to forget that it ever happened. That's nice. You know something? To go back as we as we wrap up here and by the way, we'll try to be funny because we've we've been saying we can get a little heavy sometimes. But, but as you told me a long time ago, I'm not funny, so I won't I won't Yeah. I'll do what I can not to pull that off. Yeah. That would be wonderful. Yeah. But, I was at, doing grand rounds at, an academic hospital, years ago, and I introduced that that human beings I mean, this this the illness that we end up, acquiring is a relational problem. Unless somebody has a genetic issue going on that is stops their brain from working, like other people's brains. You know? But I introduced the Badlands metaphor, as a living, breathing experience to the psychiatric staff there. And, one of the guys was a little bit interested, and he said, oh, I see what you're doing with that. He said, you're actually paradoxically attracting their essential narcissism, their self centeredness to see themselves as more important than they are, and you're backdooring them in a sense to fool them into believing that they're so special that they get their guide and that they are in charge of life. And I remember knowing I was not going to be able to say anything into what he's telling me Mhmm. Because I'd already said it. And but all I could say was no. I just said no. No. This is real. This really happens. We're really we we're actually literally doing it. That's why For sure. You know, and that happens spiritually. And, yes, it's a metaphor. And, no, we're not going to the badlands and feeling the heat of that, but, my god, the the real life that we live is an internal experience in an outward world. So, yeah, it's a real deal badlands of the heart and life and relationship and history and running from that child, you know. So Yeah. For real. Yeah. My goodness. This is real. Really is. It's real sweating. Real sweat and real care. You know,

to to kind of bring a end to to this at least this podcast, meaning more to come. Yeah. Where are you going after this? Mid time wherever I want. It's, you know, I'm just thinking all these faces, many, many faces, who would have, you know, kind of thought, hey, what are y'all doing? What's what's your angle? What's the deal? Yeah. Like this, you know, physician you're talking about. But when these men have seen that we've been through. Same thing we always wondered, anybody was talking to us and telling us something, what's the real deal? Yeah, yeah, how much I owe you. It blows our minds, it blows our hearts open, doors of our hearts open, finding it's real. It really does. And honored to do it.

So thank you so much for listening to the, CBE podcast, Pass the Word, Spread the Word. We're doing this. So glad you've been listening to us today, and we look forward to the next one. Yeah, tell other people. That'd be great. Thank y'all.