Another Current Pandemic

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey, Chip. Hey, Stephen. How you doing, man? I am well, and thank you for asking. Well, I is as good as anybody to do with me today. You know, I can see you, and so, therefore, we have inside jokes because we can see each other on Zoom. So it's like, when I say doing well, I know you're gonna look at me a certain way. You're gonna be laughing. You know? I'm doing extra well. I'm doubly blessed because I've got you on two screens.

You mean you mean you're doubly blessed because I can see two of you. I mean, this virtual stuff is weird, man. For, like, for, like, down in the dirt relationship guys like us, this virtual world is I'm having a hard time keeping up. You know, yes. And and and, Stephen, I'm telling you, it it's in all the Zoom work and virtual virtual work I'm doing, it it's proven to me what the science has shown us that the brain is faster than the computer and that we we look for responses and nuances from it. And we're we're I don't mean we read minds, but we're we're we're getting intuitive ideas related to expression. And and we have lots of questions we can ask, but a lot we could do a lot of the pragmatic, even practical, and some process virtually. But the the richer work has to mean it means being in the same same, time zone and,

you know, six feet with each with each with each other. Oh, man. I I was on a call this morning with a group of 14 people that, all work together, and I was talking about conflict and conflict resolution and conflict transformation. And and, we were doing a little bit of, like, process about the process. You know? And this one guy kinda threw in a grenade into the room and called out some obvious elephants in the room. Right? And so I said something back and then tried to let there be silence. We're if we were in a group together, the silence would have, like, generated, like, engagement. On the big Zoom call of 14 people, we just had, like, thirty seconds, forty seconds of silence. Like, somebody goes, is your microphone working? Is it working?

See, is that is that technical? It's technical. It's, technical. It's practical, technical. Yeah. I said, no. I was using that silence thing, and they all laughed. You know? It's but it's again, it's what you're saying is that the way that we are used to being with each other after all these years of being relationship for millions of years is even things. You know? We can't do it anymore that way. We're we're forced into these little boxes and screens. Yeah. Yeah. But we all know that. Let's let's talk about something else. Can't we? Let's let's talk about something else, and let's talk about, a a well, really, let's talk about a topic that will seem complicated at first and maybe even, a non connected. But we're gonna assimilate this topic and make it make sense. We're gonna connect COVID and addiction today.

Okay. We're gonna go from COVID we're gonna connect COVID and addiction Today? Yes. And we're gonna do it in twenty minutes. In twenty twenty twenty two, three minutes. We've already spent five of the of our Twenty two minutes and nineteen seconds. We spent we spent five minutes wasting the the the wonderful person who's listening's time. I don't think we're wasting anything. This is the actually the most I've felt alive all day. Well, that's just me and you, Steve. Okay? Oh, yeah. We're doing this for somebody else. The person but I I I picture the person listening going, hey. Come on. Just, you know, get on with it. But that that's me. That's me. Okay. That's what you're thinking. Just wanna get on with it. So tell me then Okay. Must be must be getting close to supper time. So tell tell me or lunchtime or breakfast time or snack time. Tell me how you're gonna connect the addiction to COVID nineteen.

Well, you and I have a book, coming out in August called Hope and the Age of Addiction. And one of the things that we're seeing, that you brought up before we began the podcast is that you're seeing related to a lot of COVID, a lot of dissociation, trauma reaction, seeing a lot of disconnection. And I would also I've seen a lot of unaffected, you know, you know, in terms of, like, removed from the effect of it, because of different forms of insulation. But, the in the addictions book, you know, we the the COVID is a pandemic. Right. I mean, that means that every single person is capable of being affected and is being affected, versus an epidemic which is located to a certain place or even population. Right? Man, when we wrote the book, the publisher came back and wouldn't let us call it a pandemic. Remember that? Yep. They they kept arguing about the word. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And so what what we the what the book is about was that we have a pandemic on the Earth and, a pandemic in The United States that is directly connected to the just most powerful killer, that the world knows today. In fact, three point three million worldwide people were killed from the effects of alcohol, ingestion, in, like, 2016 or something like that. Three point three Oh my gosh. Almost a hundred thousand in The United States. And so, and so addiction is also controlled by denial and dissociation. In other words, what what people do to avoid having to feel. Because we know that addiction is a an attempt to have a life that that we want to have without having to pay the price of feeling fully or dealing with life on life's terms. K? So and so, it's, intolerance for vulnerability. And so denial and dissociation are ways that we avoid facing that that we are being controlled by addiction, harmed by addiction, eaten alive by addiction, innocents are being harmed by it. Giant corporations are making money from it. The gambling industry, the alcohol industry, the tobacco industry, the cosmetic industry, the food industry, pharmaceutical industry Pornography. Pornography industry. I mean, and we have it. We just started. And and commercial commercialization is directly connected to the multiple forms that you can get away from the life that you have to live. You know, an addiction promises that there's such a place as away from dealing with life. And and to deal with life, it doesn't mean surviving it. I mean, we're we're actually created to thrive in it. And so the only way you can thrive is by being able to tolerate the experience of living. And to tolerate the experience of living, you have to deal with feelings.

You know? And I don't like feelings, Chip. Well, I don't either. And, you know, every time we present, you know, you know, when I wrote the voice voice of the heart, I remember you and I talking about it. It's like the big question is gonna be, look. There's seven bad ones and one good one. And I just remember, you know, you would, you know, teaching over and over again, there aren't any bad ones. They're all, they're all, tools that allow us to live fully in a place that is tough. So I don't like feelings, but I just like what they can do for me. Place with rocky soil. Yeah. You know, metaphorically and and and for real like, the feelings that help us navigate the rocky soil, like, dig up things

Yeah. With the tools. Yeah. Yeah. So addiction that controls this country, and I really mean tremendous impact on the country, because we don't know how to deal with feelings. We don't know how to, live life on life's terms and and and face reality. And we don't know how, therefore, to really do intimate relationship in so many ways because that's what addiction really is. It's an attempt to be connected, without having to truly be in relationship, which is like, you know, not under our complete control, needing each other. So so we're having the COVID a lot of the COVID reaction. I don't mean the COVID response. COVID response and COVID reaction are two different things. Totally different. There is a big difference between reaction and response. And, my experience as I'm moving around the world is that by far to me, most people are reacting, and not responding to the environment and respond to the crisis that we're in or the Yeah. Or the shift that we're having to make in our different communities. Yep. That that because no one really knows what's going on, like, there's no real concrete factual data for us to deal with yet. It's just interpretation of things. Because of that's happening, people's fear and anxiety and shame and powerlessness is so big that there's this big reaction. Right. And people people are moving into hyperavoidance or hypercontrol, hypo hypophoria or or hyperphoric, you know,

responses to what's going on. Yeah. And and reactions are the things we do to get away from having to deal with feelings, tell the truth about them, and live in the process of what they're made to do for us. K. So that's the reaction. But see, right now with COVID going on, what's what's highlighted is our tremendous need for three things. We need to stay tough, we need to stay caring, and we need to stay helpful. Stay tough, stay caring, stay helpful. Yes. And to stay tough, you have to be able to to to know how to replenish. You know, you need to know how to stay encouraged, which means full hearted participation. And and to stay encouraged, you need to be encouraged based on when you get tired and worn down and you start struggling. And we've seen a lot of encouragement, towards health care professionals. I mean, they've been, thank you for what you're doing, appreciate it, we need you to stay tough. So, you know, the need has been recognized and the the food of caring has been given. But also, you'll see also a lot of corporations, say, oh, okay. This is the new gig to keep the employees, moving and feel like they're important by putting out little hero signs and, stuff like that. You know what I'm talking about? You've seen, like Yeah. Take photographs of them or put pictures of them up, and that's not what people are really looking for.

They're they're they're looking I kinda like feeling like a hero. I like it when people tell me I'm a hero. Well, yeah. Because if I'm not a hero, then I'm a martyr, I'm a victim. You know? I mean yeah. I hear what you're saying. So you Yeah. And it's saying to also means staying on it. Also means staying yeah. Like, we use the voice of attention. You're staying angry. I mean, it's like, I want to get this done. I want us to be safe. I am going to stand on the wall. I am going to stay active. And to be able to do that, we have to have people caring about us and supporting us and we have to have places to go to get replenished. You know, nine one one, the amount of service people that came in there to service serve the people who were serving was amazing. Remember that that church was opened up. They still have boot marks where people coming to the I think it was Saint Paul's Church there, and they're sleeping and being being fed and going back into the towers to keep helping. I mean, we've got to stay tough. And we are tough people. But if if we deny the feelings, we end up denying the needs of replenishment so we can stay tough. So, you know, we're in a marathon, related to COVID, but we're in a marathon related to life too. And it's not like this isn't one sprint and we got it fixed. You know, this is life. This is even life on life's terms. So we gotta stay tough, and and we also gotta stay caring so we can stay tough. Which does sound I mean, clearly, caring and tough Yes. And or tender and tough. But we've gotta stay tough, and we gotta stay tender. Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. Because something matters to me. It's like I'm gonna be applying my energy towards what matters to me, and I'm gonna be going into sort of, you know, risks way, some sometimes harms way, but at least risk way or vulnerabilities way. I'm gonna step into, what I don't know for sure will happen even though I want it to happen. And so that means sometimes I'm going to get tired. I've got to get back. There's got to be somebody to care about me so I can stay caring about it. I mean, we're all in a connected, community. And if we're in denial and dissociated, which is what addiction, most addiction does to us, then we can't truly care. We can use each other, we can't care for each other. And we can't really stay tough to keep stay focused on something that really matters. And then we also need to stay helpful.

Well, I think we don't know before moving to helpful, I think what people are having a hard time knowing right now, I know I am, is what what really does matter. Right? Like, people are there's do this, don't do this, go back and shop, don't shop, make masks. Don't make masks. You know, I mean, you know, wash your hands. Like, it's it's like all those activities, they matter from a public, health standpoint. They don't really matter as much from an emotional spiritual standpoint as far as, like, how do I direct my heart in the midst of Boy, that's that's so well said. You know, we're seeing you said earlier before we started that we're living in a time of tremendous reactivity, reaction formation. And because we don't know what to do with fear, this is again back to, I believe, our addiction culture, whatever we have to do to escape dealing with how we're made? As emotional spiritual creatures, we've done so much to escape it, it's amazing. So now at the time when we need to be able to process feelings, we need to be able to talk about fear like in Michigan. Like, okay, the governor's scared, so she she reacts a certain way. And then the people are scared, and they react in a certain way. And then the fear becomes what people falsely call anger when actually it's raging at each other, reacting against each other, instead of telling the truth to each other. You know, it's like, I mean, you know, I wish the governor could and I'm making the story up, but I don't know the in and out, you know, I haven't been privy to everything. Well, just pick any governor of any state. Yeah. I wish the governor would just say, look, I'm scared that you folks, if I open it up a little bit, that y'all can't trust you. Okay? And I'm asking you to be response able. I'm asking you to take precautions. Let's go slow. Let's do this together. And then are any of you scared to trust me, or are y'all willing to do this? And they say, yeah. We are. And what about the people who don't, who won't do it? Well, then we need to address them with consequences. I mean, just, you know, Yeah. Talk to humans. Yeah. Yeah.

So to touch on the last one, Chip, we we got tough. We have caring and tender, and then we have Stay helpful. Helpful. Okay. So stay stay tough. Stay engaged. Stay tender. Yeah. Stay human. Stay reactive. They'll be rageable. Yeah. And stay helpful. It's like, look, get up in the morning. I mean, one of the greatest greatest things we can do for ourselves is to give others what we need for ourselves. I mean, and and even if it's just practical, reciprocal actions, I mean, all the way from that business quid pro quo all the way down to do unto others what you'd have them do for you. I mean, you know, it may not be your time in the ditch, but or in the barrel, so to speak, but you're gonna be in the barrel sooner or later. And so know that the person you see who might need what you you you have, help. Because you're gonna need help sooner or later and maybe maybe they're it will come back to you. But even I saw great great yeah. I saw a great picture in the Wall Street Journal, I think, last week.

There was a woman saying the the food pantry I used to volunteer at every week, now I'm a client of. But now I'm in line for food. Right? And it was it just kind of shifted her perspective on, like, I come here every week and start the pantry. And Yeah. I think because Stephen Because she was a helper, because she was involved in helping, when she needed help, she knew where to go. Yep. I mean, it's amazing that people who are helpers and carers and tough people, when when when their need time comes, they know who to go to and where to go because they've been participating with those who do it. So one of the, you know, the the models that I think is helpful way to understand this is your model called you you know, for your river. Right? Yeah. And and and in it, and people can find that, I'm sure, on your website or, we'll we'll make it available somehow on chip.com or Sage Hill, if people can go to and see this this paradigm. But in it, there's if you can imagine a river, and in the river is is everything that life brings, all the joys and the sorrows, the birthdays and the funerals, the the ups and downs, the mundane, the the just all of life. And the water can get rough, and it can get calm and it can, you know, like, it it's just the river of life. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Before it means to bear well. To bear well. Like, so so staying in the river and letting the river carry us through life, we're not fighting against it, like, is is bearing life well. It is euphoria. But you talk in that model about the way we react when the going gets tough, is that we will either overreact in anxiety, which is called hyperphoria. Right? Hyperdoing. And we'll we'll start trying to control, which leads to isolation and management. Or or we under respond, which is hypophoric, which looks like depression, avoidance, denial, dissociation. Right? And association, bowel, all of all those. But both those movements out of the river of life end up leading to, like, lots of isolation and impairment. And so I think that model of of, like, the let me finish this. I'm sorry. I cut you off. The practical model the practical application of, like, staying tough, staying tender, and and being helpful really ends up being, like, staying in the river of life, like staying in it with people. They're looking for a way out of it. How do I stay in it? What do I need to do to get back in it every day? Yeah. And, you know, that that you said, like, the the the river of life or Euphoria River means to bear life well, which means

we are capable of thriving amidst loss, joy, gain, grief, you know, struggle, longings, hope, and all those things. And if you can't tolerate feelings, which back going back earlier, which addiction makes sure we can't, we're a culture unprepared for crisis except for those in recovery. What happens is we go from anxiety, hyperphoria, like, could trauma take control. I'm gonna fix this. We run away from having to be afraid or having to be in need. And then once that fails us, we come crashing down through the waters to the other side or into, the escape to apathy, trying not to care, trying not to be bothered, isolated, depressed. So it becomes a roller coaster of avoidance. And then when times come, when it's time to show up, we're not able to help, we're not able to care, and we're not able to stay tough. So, I mean, feelings feelings make us tough, and feelings make us care, and feelings bring us to being helpful because we, on some level, recognize ourselves in everyone else.

I love when you say when you say tough, when you say care about everybody else, record through it's like this idea that, like, feelings if I'm willing to feel my feelings, I'm willing to see them in somebody else also. Yeah. And then I'm willing to go past my own comfort, my own my whole life that is not just about my comfort anymore. It's about there's a person in need like me that I can help. I'm willing to be endure my pain, feel my feelings for something greater than my comfort, you know, my own self centeredness. You're not feeling feelings makes us really self centered. Not feeling feelings makes us, makes us insulated from experiencing ourselves, and therefore, the people outside of us become objects. You know, and this reminds me so much, like like, when when I was fully involved in addict the addictions field, was said CPE, I was tough before I got there, and I got tougher while I was there. And what I mean by that is that there it took a lot of willingness to feel, to stay caring, to remain helpful. And because people died, and there were those who, you know, you know, walked away from what they could have had, left families behind. There are those who who, you know, who killed themselves. And, if if I'm not willing to step into that territory, then those I can help, I'm not gonna be able to get to. So, and then before that even, became to that world, I was already tough, but not from the standpoint of, strong in myself, but, I had I had been cared about in ways I did not know would ever happen. And that allowed me to bring to life a level of passion and compassion that had always been in me, but used it. You know, it became usable. And and and so right now is the time for us to remember the starfish, from the standpoint, you know, that little kid on the beach, the thousand starfish washed up from the storm, and he goes after the beach. He's six years old. She's six years old. She, she, whatever. And, he recognizes suffocation. And so he recognizes these little creatures are suffocating. You can see them, you know, trying to breed the other creatures. Outside the water and they can't breathe. They can't live. Yeah. Yeah. Well, guess what? He has he has compassion because he's those those what it's like to wake up at night and be scared in a storm and need to go find his mom or daddy. So that little six year old's in touch with and tough enough to seek care and to seek help. And so And throw all the starfish back into the water. Well, no. One at a time. He picks up one yeah. And then old man comes on the beach, sees what he's doing. He's realistic. He's cynical. He's skeptical. He goes up to the kids, says, you know, son, don't you know that's not gonna matter? The little boy is holding a starfish. Now he can either go into denial. He can dissociate. He can follow the rules and remove himself from how he's created and follow the authority that tells him to deny and dissociate. Or he can appear to defy and step into the Euphoria River and may continue to be who he's made to be, which is gonna lead him to become tough and caring and helpful. And he does that. He looks into the man's face and he says it matters to this one. And he goes and puts the starfish in the water and goes back and gets another one. And so those of us, you, me, and others who know that we were the starfish and someone dared to say it matters to this one, well, then we grow up to become people who are going to, recognize starfish because we were one when it comes time to to show up and deal. And that means stay tough, stay caring, and stay helpful. But addiction is robbing our country, in every single that is. Yeah. Yeah. So going to where we started with this hope in the age of addiction, I mean, the COVID is highlighting, our need to, deal with addiction. We may bankrupt our country, in our reactivity.

Yeah. It it's, because we're not sensitive to heart. I love what you just said. Because so many people in our country, United States, are caught up in the destruction of addiction, they can't be sensitive to heart, which means they their minds have grown numb along the way, and and they can't make wise decisions about what to do, when to do, and how to do it. So we end up trying to control or avoid control instead of engaging the struggle that's in front of us, whether that's help the person next door or whether it's I mean, what whatever the hell or ask for the help that we need. Yeah. Actually, good, Chip. Alright, man. Yep. Thank that's good good day. Good good podcast. I would say this as we wrap up the podcast, the people are still listening, haven't had hadn't stopped playing. They can because you mentioned the book, and I pulled it by computer. You can preorder the book on Amazon right now. Did you know that?

No. But you don't get it you don't get the book early, though. No. No. But you can order it early. Okay. Yeah. So you can so you can get it the day it comes out. Yeah. And and I'm telling you, I I really don't believe we we can really understand book I've ever written. Do I? I love the cover I love the cover of the book. The cover is correct. Love the cover of the book. But but we can't understand some of the pitfalls related to our reactions to COVID, not responses, unless we understand addiction. I'm telling you, it's the reactivity is addiction driven. Yes. You got you got to get hope in the age of addiction. I mean, that's our that's the national problem.

Alright, Chip. Thank you. Thanks, Stephen. Hey. Thanks for listening to Sage Hill Live Fully podcast with Chip Dodd and Stephen James. You could find out more about, what Chip's doing at chipdodd.com, where there's, new writings often. There's there's resources for you to to engage with or to encourage your heart and encourage you to to live fully, love deeply, and lead well. And then you can also if you need help and, or you know that someone that needs help, please reach out to Sage Hill Counseling. We can connect you with a provider. And we're doing virtual therapy now, and we've started doing, virtual coaching, which allows us to work across state lines. So you don't have to be in Tennessee, to to get help from Sage Hill anymore. So, and we're growing our network of virtual coaches as we speak. So, thank you, and we hope that this this time blesses you, and may God keep you safe.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.