A visit from Dave Barnes

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Welcome to the Sage Hill podcast, a podcast of down to earth conversations to help you see who you're made to be so you can do what you're made to do. Hi. I'm Stephen James, executive director of Sage Hill Counseling and CEO of the Leadership Lab, and I'm joined in the studio as always by Dr. Chip Chip Dodd, the founder of SayChill and best selling author, speaker, and counselor. If you're a regular listener to the podcast, you're used to Chip and myself discussing issues to help you live fully, love deeply, and lead well. This is a special episode of the podcast because today, it features a conversation with musician, singer, and songwriter Dave Barnes. As a recording artist, Dave has made something like eight albums as a songwriter. He's both written and cowritten songs with Carrie Underwood, Thomas Rhett, Miriam Morris, Reba McEntire, Blake Shelton, Marc Broussard, Bebo Norman, Matt Wertz, Andrew Ripp, Tim McGraw, just to name a few. He's been nominated for best country song God Gave Me You that was recorded by Blake Shelton. And today, our conversation with Dave covers a range of topics from manhood to marriage to work to spirituality to authentic relationships. So, sit back and enjoy Chip and I and our conversation with Dave Barnes. Hey, Chip. Good day. Good day. Good day, Stephen. Hey. We've got a cool podcast today because we have a guest on the podcast.

Yes. Yeah. And and which is a new continuing New thing. Focus. Yeah. We'll be doing a lot more of that. Yeah. Lot more guests, lot more conversations with people and Mhmm. Just down to earth, real hearted conversations. Today, we're gonna have a conversation with a guy named Dave Barnes. A a really great guy. He he was a Grammy nominated songwriter. I was talking about just him being just being a great guy. He is Grammy nominated. But but besides that, he's if I didn't know that, which I did not when I met him the first time, he just he just seems like a really good Yeah, he's a good man. Good man. Good way. Yeah. Welcoming, hospitable, fun, family. Yeah. Humble, growing. Yeah. What are some things we learned from our conversation with Dave? Well, we learned that he is still out there struggling.

We also learned that he is asking the hard questions about how do I do all of this thing, the work, love, family. When I pick one, I lose another. Do I have to? And also how to not let the pursuit of what I'm called to do or even ambitious to do stop me from doing what's most important, which is following love, I think. That's great. Yeah. So Do you agree with that? I do. I do. So why don't y'all sit back and enjoy this conversation with Chip Dodd, Dave Barnes, and myself and Myself as in Stephen James. Hey, Chip. Hi, Steve. Hey. Good afternoon, Stephen. What's up? What's up? We got we got a very special podcast today. Super. We're back in the podcast studio. Yeah. We're in the super podcast world. Podcast world because we have a genuine superstar. A true star. Grammy nominated song of the year songwriter.

Yep. Traveled around the world being special with great hair. Yeah. He's a giant. She's like Can that be my tag? It is. Gotcha. I have a little on the he's like seven eighteen. He's like so big. Aw. So ladies and gentlemen, we have mister Dave Barnes. Yes. Yes. Hey, Dave. Hey. Hey, Dave. Oh, thanks for coming by, man. Oh, this I I I this is a huge honor. I feel like this is a, I'm I'm really excited to be here. What I really just wanna I wanna be quiet and just listen to y'all and then I'll smile and sort of like Well, I want you to tell us what you decided to be here about. Look across the mic. Look across the mic and you'll tell us.

Like like Myrtle Myrtle and Beth talking to them. Yeah. There's a lot of wisdom over there. You guys are backing some there's some some firepower over there. That's right. And end of fight, guys. Thank you. It is hard earned, I would say. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You don't get wise by making good decisions. And you can end it there. I I've already learned all I need to learn right there. Actually, learning from the experiences, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, this year on the podcast, series of podcast we're doing, we're trying to invite people in to have conversations. Like, you know, typically, it's Chip and I having conversations about us and about life and about spirituality and God and freedom and living fully. And and we I think personally, I've gotten kinda tired of hearing myself talk. I wanna hear other people talk. I have never gotten tired of hearing you talk.

I'm not tired of hearing me talk. I don't think so. I just have all this stuff I wanna say. Yeah. I really do. I know. Yeah. So why so why is Dave here? Dave's here because I thought it'd be good for us to talk to other people about their life story, their journey, who they're becoming, where they've been, what they've learned, you know, because I think all of us need encouragement to know that the best we ever get is like a giraffe running on ice. And the best we gets clumsy. Yeah. The people I know that are living the most free are the people who've embraced that. And Dave will be the first to say, besides the great hair, that he he's not perfect, though he plays perfect on TV, and probably in his family of origin. But outside Continue. Continue. Yeah. But outside of that, like, you know, he's a normal dude who's who's trying to figure out what it means to be himself and love his wife and love his kids and, you know, love Jesus and all that stuff. So, I just wanted him here and y'all hit it off before. Y'all don't know each other that well, but Mhmm. I guess the only time y'all met, we were doing a faith and work series and y'all had this giant man crush on the stage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They we aren't really actually supposed to be in the same room. That was yeah. But we are, and we're breaking those rules. Yeah. What are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. See, he's already forgotten. It's the trauma. You just you guys can speak to that. So, Dave, I think I don't wanna kick off with But we had a great time. That was that was fun. Your your your your energy and your interest and your care about what you were doing and and and and and just giving to the people there, you were you I just was glad to be around somebody I considered to be like like, this is a real guy. This is a real person. Time. They should be doing that. And you are you've been out in the public enough to need to hide or need to run or need to find but you you've had some longevity. And so I really, so kinda like may I ask a question? You may. How did you do it? I mean, how have you stayed in it and with so much interest for so long? And, you know, you haven't bought into the cynicism, you haven't given up, you haven't quit what's, I would guess, your first love Yeah. The music, the God, and the people you're offering it to. Did you add the in front of God? Because that made it very the God. The God. The God. The God. The God. The God. Yeah.

You you know what's funny? Yeah. I do. I love doing it, one. I mean, that, you know, that that's obviously a great motivator. I think it is interesting as I get older doing this, and this seems to be a pretty consistent theme with, friends of mine too, is it's hard, you know, entertainment The entertainment piece. Is tricky because Let me tell your kid. You got what it takes. He's seven nineteen and and 72 years old. And just like that. It's the best hair. But, you know, I think I think it is interesting as I get older because the the the the passions change, you know. Like, you have you you got married, and then I had kids, and the sort of like the drive for occupational success, whatever you call that, just changes because suddenly there's something that I think I've realized like, oh, this is a lot more valuable to me, and it's created this really weird friction between vocation and family that is not really bad necessarily, but I think it's well, just trying to choose between I feel like I'm choosing between the two, you know. Like, if I'm gone, I'm not with them, you know. And if I'm home, I'm not playing shows. Yeah. And so creating new spaces of like, well, now I write with a lot of people and that keeps me home. I play less shows, so I enjoy the shows more and it feels more productive when I'm gone, you know, like really trying to have a little more of it. But there's a very real feeling of like you can't do both, you know, like this give and take of kind of, you know, I can't be super dad or well, there it is. We can end there. Tell me about super dad, David. But you know, I can can't be the dad. Sometimes I really wish that I could be by doing a lot of career stuff, but then I can't be the, you know, the artist I wanna be by by being a dad too. It's like living in loss all the time. That's it. That's it. And I think being well acquainted with this feeling of like, that's okay. Like Yeah. And, you know, I I I laughed about it yesterday with a friend of mine talking about it. I feel like I just I missed whatever the, like, man one zero one class was of like, let me just give you some hints as what's gonna happen later in your life. It's like you're gonna live in this sort of vacuum, and it's okay, but you're never gonna quite feel like everything's working together at the same time. Something will work, and you'll be like, oh my god. It's happening, and over here, the fire went out on this one. And you light that fire and you run back over this one. It would Or if you would have taken the class, man school one zero one, you would have blown that part out. Yeah. I'd be like, no. That's bad. Get you the sex part. Yeah. Are there pictures? So I think, you know, it's been an interesting season of sort of realizing these weird tensions that I was oblivious to really until, I think, my thirties. You know? Yeah. So how old are you now? 41. So 41. So when when you were you're going through all this process, you thought somewhere along the line,

you could work it out? Oh, I still figure it out? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still like Yeah. As Stephen said you said just a minute ago, it's like it's like you're gonna live in loss. Yeah. Yeah. So make no matter it like, you're gonna be in the sadness on on some level if you're sensitive to it. And but if you're not gonna do the sadness, you're gonna do the resentment, though. Oh, boy. I know those two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you're you're gonna resent home Yeah. Resent the road There you go. And be dissatisfied everywhere. Yeah. So you could choose between sad and resentment. Is that kinda it? And I mean, I I don't know. You tell me it's true. I mean, I Yeah. I was gonna say, you're the counselor. But you know, you know, honestly, because I'm I'm, like, older. And what I'm what I'm finding now is, like, everything you're saying is is true and, impossible. But I really believe that if we take the risk of loving what we love most and therefore giving most of ourselves to what we love most, and if that's our families, then I I cannot help but believe that career will

work itself out. I well, man. Because I think for me, like, I love what I do, and I love my family. Yeah. And if you got a gun to my head, I'm gonna pick my family. But my day in and day out is like, I love creating and changing and doing and being. And I love being at home, but it doesn't being at home fills me up in a way that my work doesn't. Yes. And being at work fills me up in a way my family doesn't. And if you don't work, you have nothing to take your family. Right. And if I'm not with them, I really have nothing to take to work either. Right? And so I don't know that it is much give like, love what you love the most first, because I there's, you know, love the lord god with your heart and mind and soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. It's like, yeah. I love all those things. You know? Yeah. And that that tension of I'm being pulled between things I love all the time.

Yeah. You know, there there were two two things, David. You and Steve, please weigh on this. But two things like my my father was a a surgeon, and I remember a woman told an incredible story. She said, I know that that you didn't have him much when y'all were growing up. And he he was a surgeon during a time when, literally, people would be in his waiting room. They would go home, eat supper, and come back that night to see him because he was still there seeing patients in between surgeries and operations. And a woman had basically, her foot had been crushed. Her orthopedic surgeon was gonna cut it off. Her father called my father. He ended up operating on it. And then she said she woke up in the morning and she looked down and and she still had both feet. Mhmm. And my father was asleep at the end of the bed, sitting in a chair at at 05:00 in the morning. So and that was sort of our our our norm. And I don't know how somebody who is in love with their vocation cannot can really find this thing called real balance. So and I don't know I don't know where it all is. And then at the same time, I remember getting up. I was I was headed into Dallas one morning. Tennyson was tiny. And my old oldest son, I remember just standing up on the counter. It was like 05:30 in the morning, and I'm headed in in a in a, you know, what's it called? John. Commuting. Commuting. Commuting. Commuting. And I remember bus. But he looked no. He was driving, but but he looked at me and he said as I said, well, I'll see you tonight. And he said, don't you love me anymore? I'm like, well, how do how did I go about explaining? So that's what I mean by the sadness part. Which is such the question of a kid's heart. Yeah. Yeah. But in the same time, it's like it it's it's I think it's an impossible task if we try to find balance. Mhmm. I think it's an impossible task if we try to, make it all work so that we don't have have to deal with the pain. I think we have to deal with the pain.

And what we do to not deal with pain makes us crazy. Yes. Like, it's addiction, idolatry, shame, sin, all that bad stuff. So Dave. Yeah. So Dave, thanks for coming. If you would, that drove up in that tension of his living. Right? As you as you said, you're getting older and you're in your forties now and you're riding some and you're riding a lot and you're traveling some and you're parenting a lot and you're doing marriage some and those are things pulling at you. Mhmm. Right? How is that pulling changing you as a man, as a person? That's a great question. I think I'm having to reconcile, kind of to Chip's point with the things that I have to give up to get other things. You know? Because I don't I mean, I I I struggle to find it all working. I think there's a It doesn't all work. Yeah. There's a finite amount of space and time in my life. And it's like when I choose something, I don't choose the other. You know? And so I think it's this really interesting push and pull of, you know, how to grieve that the career may go this way, but the family goes this way, the opposite way. Mhmm. And and seasons going like, yeah, like, you know, like I may be doing some shows this summer, more than I've done a long time. And, you know, already having to go, well, that's gonna that's, you know, that's taken away from family time. Thankfully, my family is, as much as they can be okay with that, they're okay with it. So it's not, you know, it's not I'm not leaving for months at a time, but, you know, it's a lot of shows, you know, and kinda having to live in that in that weird space. So I think I'm learning how to be okay with, with the tension of that, you know, not necessarily feeling like I have to reconcile it all the time. And I think I'm also realizing things aren't quite as catastrophic as I make them in my head, you know. Like, I can really make believe that I'm gonna get home from doing these shows, and it's like my kids are like, you look familiar to me. Yeah. You know, you remind me of someone, but I don't know who. And I don't think the road is as bad either as I think it is. You know, I think there can be real joy in being gone and being and playing and seeing, people affected by what I do. So I think learning to be okay with that. And then I think the biggest thing lately don't think anybody's gonna feel sorry for you for having a music career, Dave. Yeah. That's right. Except other musicians who feel sorry for that. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Very true. And it is hard work. Yeah. It is. Like, it's so it's like ninety minutes of glamour Mhmm. And then a lot of boredom. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they they they they're in speaks to, like, the the idea that just because he's successful somehow he can't have the same pains as everyone else. Like what you just said was speaking for, you know, the the worst shame that makes him keep quiet about Well, in the myth, like, if I become a professional baseball player, then my wife's gonna be great. Or if I get if I get nominated for a Grammy, then all of a sudden, like, my wife's gonna love me and my kid's gonna admire me. Did they? Yeah. Well, let's see. Bring them in. They're here. You know, I I think that's what's funny too is that people I mean, this Notorious B. I. G. Said it the best. The more money, the more problems. Is that how you say it, Notorious B. I. G? B. I. G. Yeah. We're all waiting here. We can we can celebrate that together. I think but there is this weird thing that success, and I don't even mean money, but I just mean like as as your notoriety grows or people know more about what you're doing or whatever, it's like more it's like more holes get poked in the thing. So more light comes in which illuminates more things, you know, where, like, before it's like you got a couple holes and you're like, it's not that bad in here. And all of a sudden it's like, you know, and all of a sudden they're like, oh my god. It's like a lot of room, and what what's going on in my head and heart and all these things. So I think people really sorry. I really didn't suspect how much as careers your career grows and things happen that all of a sudden it's like, it's so much more complicated. It's infinitely more complicated and more you have more expectations yourself. People have more expectation, you know. And that can that can be real great, but it can also be really tricky. And so I think, you know, there's this and and especially in my industry, nobody talks about this stuff. I mean, that's a space that me and some other friends of mine are trying to create is like, how can we sit with younger artists and really go like, hey. You know, when you're in your twenties, you're not thinking about anything in the periphery but that thing up in front of you. But it's like in your thirties, somebody starts clicking the lights on, and you start looking to your right and left going, oh my god. There's all this stuff here. You know? And and so how do you prepare people for for that for that realization, you know, of and then, man, it's like sometimes I feel for people. I'm like, man, good luck with success. Like, I mean, I kinda hope you don't get some of it because it's just it's really hard to manage. Or when the when you're successful or have attention

and the wheels come off, because the wheels always come off. Right? Like, no one gets through life that the wheels come off. Like, it's more glaring and the wreck's bigger Yeah. And the and the noises are louder. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But the but the having been on the inside of that with people of notoriety, the heartache's just the same Yeah. As an or like, an air quote as an ordinary person. Well, you know, and I I would say maybe, I don't wanna say harder, but it's more unique in that you you you have the everybody has a perception of you that you have everything you want. So you have a double shame happening because I should be happy and I'm not. Yeah. Like, why I got all the stuff I fought for and I'm not and you don't usually have really good friends. You got a lot of people that say yes a lot and so you feel doubly isolated. So it's like whatever You are doubly isolated. You don't feel it. You are doubly isolated. So so so it's a really tricky existence. That's what I feel bad is, like, you you fight so long to get to that place, and nobody went, hey. Before you go before you go before you go before you go on the bridge, can I just give you, like, a quick heads up of what that area is like? Right? And you would have said what at twenty? I mean, I I can't really I mean, I can only speak to my version. Can I speak to your version? So we're at twenty

and you're just like You hear what you just said. And and and you come to yourself and you say, hey, young Dave. You just played a great gig. And Young Dave. And things are about to be awesomely fun. And you've got this really beautiful wife who's way into you. Yeah. And you're gonna make a bunch of money and be famous. And You sound like you described the life you're looking for. Oh, sorry. Hold on. Listen. You go on for five more minutes. And there's gonna be people throwing themselves, you know And you're a goalie for Chelsea FC. Yeah. Yeah. That would be awesome. God. Oh, the pressure. But what would you have said to yourself at 20? Would you have listened? And then I wanna hear what the

what the 20 year old would have said back. Well, you know, I'll say this quickly to answer your question because I think it leads into the other answer. I think, I think myself and a lot of people wouldn't listen because you don't believe it. Because somebody sits down, I wouldn't have. I would have been like, there's if you'd have told me I'd have been nominated for a Grammy literally said you're reading the wrong script. Like, that's and not in a a really genuinely humble place. Like, I don't think that's ever gonna happen to me. That's not what I do. So I think some of it and that therein lies the rub is this thing of like, it's two things. You meet somebody who's expecting it, you got a whole other set of problems. You sit with the young people in the world who are like I'm gonna get this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tell me about it because I'm gonna be there. You're like, oh, boy. Okay. What do you mean to do? That's then we're gonna need to have another conversation. But I think for the people like me, which I think is most people, you just kinda go, thank you, but that that's not that's so you don't sort of gird up your loins with you don't put on the armor. You sort because, like, I'm not gonna and then before you know it, you're there. There's not this transition where you're like, oh, wait. This is starting to happen. Do I need to be thinking about anything different? How can I set myself up to be, careful in my thought and life as this is happening? You just sort of wake up and you're there. Would you would you have,

tolerated a mentor in your twenties, sort of like this guy who could really guide you? Would you have been able to tolerate somebody to walk with you? You know, I I kinda had a couple of those, which Like to help you face your greatness Yeah. Yeah. In a legitimate way Yeah. That that that you've been given these gifts and you're using them. It's your job to use them now. You know, you're you're gonna step into some success. Yeah. Would you have let somebody Yeah. And I I was fortunate that I had couple of versions. I think the hard thing, I think something that and this is, again, a space I'm trying to create with some friends, is it's so rare when you have someone in your profession, not the nonprofit version of your profession, but really somebody who's doing it Mhmm. That's ten, twenty years older than you that stops, pivots, and goes, hey, you down there, we should hang out, and we need to get to know I wanna help. Because you're like, wait. What? Like, nobody does that. Right? So you have the ancillary people that do, the guy who used to, the woman that used to, you know, it's it's but it's so rare that when you're in fifth gear, you're turning the car around or you're turning around while you're driving. Who's back there that I can help? Yeah. So I think the thing that's also tricky is to find people who are still having success that are that are benevolent that way. Yeah. That really you're having enough wherewithal to stop and go, no, it's I'm still this is great, like, it's still working, but I also want to think about others too. It's either they have the spill and then they come and go, God, it didn't work. I want to help other people now, or they get out of it. They transition to another career and they go, Hey. I used to do that. I don't do anymore, but now I can help you with it. So I think it's hard because you got to create all the space in your life to do that, which is gonna affect the success you have. And now you're talking about, maybe less time with your family, less coaching career, and now you're mentoring other people. Yeah. Is there enough room for that? I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think so. I don't know. I mean, I I hope and I think too, I mean, y'all know this too, but it is that second half of life thing where it's like the the value of that stuff just changes. You know what I mean? It's like you've done it. You've you've done the stuff. You've got some of the things,

and you're like, well, that isn't I mean, it's Solomon warned us all. Right? It's like that didn't really go like I thought it would. You're going back again to you you you mean you've you've brought it up a couple of times that that that if we don't have relational connection, and we've talked about this before many times that there's no difference between the rich and the poor except the rich have it worse. Yeah. I'm not saying you're rich, but I'm saying that that the rich got more money than we do. Well, the rich find out. Thank you, Steve. Oh, he does. You got issues. Today, I do. And if you're on the podcast, hey. Too bad for you. So you're catching it today. But what was I talking about? Some of the relational conditions. The the the the rich and the poor, and the rich know they can't. They've arrived and whatever it was they were after, they've got, but it didn't touch or fix or make this thing inside, you know, repaired or go away. Yeah. We still have to deal with life. People people forget that freedom gives you options.

And I think we're it's it's a very in my opinion Your options expose what you really care about. There you go. Yeah. And I think I I I am still dealing with that. I think a lot of my friends are dealing. It's like, how do you prepare yourself for the fact that you're really gonna be, quote, unquote, autonomous someday? Like, that's a kind of a terrifying thought. Yeah. And, again, it's like my dad used to joke, like, what happens when the dog catches the tire? Yeah. You know what I mean? Yes. He just, you know, like and I think all of us a lot of us are fortunate enough that you never catch a tire, but, man, the the 10% that do in the world, the it's like you now have a whole other set of circumstances.

I do I do think actually, I mean, not everybody gets to be famous or have notoriety or get to lead big things, but there are people who do catch their dreams, whether it's the marriage they want or the child they had or and the I think people are fortunate enough to to bump into their heart's desire from time to time. Sure. And I think that's a really scary thing because when we do, we're immediately face with what if I lose it? Mhmm. Or is this what I really wanted? Or I thought if I got this it'd be enough and now it's not. I just want more, you know. And that the human heart's designed to desire. It's designed to want and crave and be filled and and then pour itself out again. Yeah. And, But you know, man Yeah. Well, you did. So go ahead. Well, you were you're about to make a round hole. I was about to be really wise and Oh, okay. That's okay. I've already lost. No. No. Bring bring the wheel. No. You got were you gonna say?

No. I I was just thinking about I I don't know if it's it's an age issue or an awakening issue for me, but over the well, I guess, over the past gosh. I guess, when I was fifty, fifty two or three, it hit me that as far as, like, fulfillment, you know, doing what I was made to do and and giving away what I was made to offer kind of thing, and then people taking it, and and I got to do it. I I was privileged to get to do it, whatever it hit. You know, I don't have to go into that. But I thought, well, you know, I can quit. I can retire. I can I'm done. I mean, I've I've I've got a list that says, hey, you did okay, kind of thing. So I was aware of that. But then over the past bunch of years, I've been in this transition territory of of really going to my saying to myself, like, okay. So what matters and what am I doing with it? And and it's it's come down to honestly, the only thing that ultimately matters is connection with the people who matter, whether that's myself, family, friends, God. And I swear to you, this whole career thing that most of us spend our lives pursuing is is is made to be secondary, and yet it ends up being primary. Because it's it's astounding because the only people who are gonna be there when we're sort of wrapping up, whatever that happens to be, is only are only the people who love us because the crowd, the people we entertain, the people we've contributed to, people's lives we've saved, or or whatever that happens to be, they're not gonna be there. Yeah. I mean, they've received the gift. Mhmm. Do you know? And so it's it's somehow, I'm I'm maybe just speaking as a person who's, on the other side of the mountain or whatever you wanna call it. Well, I think But still, I think that people could be mentored into being awake in their twenties and thirties. Hey. You know, like you said about them mentored me. That's some sitting there going Oh, you are? Okay. Yeah. I have followed you over

several mountains now, like, other side of the mountain. Right? And Mhmm. And kind of hearing you tell me this what it's like. And, Yeah. You called the other day and said something something as simple as about cars. Yeah. Right? Yes. And kids. Like what I do with my kids in college is cars. Yeah. Yeah. And and so I have been fortunate enough. Like for me, I mean, Chip's fifteen years older than me and and we met twenty one years ago. Mhmm. And you kinda said this guy's worth, like, me turning around in midstream Yeah. And speaking into. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's not only like a dear, dear, dear, dear friend, but he's also, like, my one of my primary, if not my primary mentor. Right? And so as I'm even watching you make these shifts over the last few years Scare you? Well, not well. Yeah. I mean, a little bit. Yeah. A little bit. It's scary. He also humbled the crap out of me. Right? Yeah. So, like, you know, I know your life, not to tell your story, but you talked about this stuff. Like, your dad dying, you getting prostate cancer, and then wrapping up CPE. Yeah. Like, those three things I've noticed in the last several years, probably about seven years, eight years? When did your dad die? 02/2010. 2010. Last ten years. Mhmm. Like though I've noticed these Mother died last year? Mother died last year. These real shifts in you around and they seem like similar shifts Mhmm. Around like I'm gonna be with the people that I wanna be with, that I love, that love me back in a different way than, you were before. Yeah. You know? And, and I'm watching that like as a man whose kids are now going off to college because I met when I met you, Tennyson and William were little. Little babies. Little babies. Like middle elementary school and middle school. True. And now they're like married, getting married, all that stuff. And my kids are now finishing high school and going into college and I'm I'm watching you go going, now I can't do it like Chip but I can watch how Chip does Chip. Mhmm. And Do Stephen? I can learn how to do Stephen. I have the courage to be it's gonna be okay to do Stephen. Mhmm. But I've seen you go through several great awakenings over the years and it's kinda it's awakening from like 20 to 30 and this other awakening that we get

later and later and later, you know? Well, don't don't you know, I think this is the thing. I I mean, God, the way God programmed our hearts is just so fascinating to me because, you know, I I always underestimate how what it does to me when someone that's older than me speaks real real pointed encouragement to me. I mean, I can tell you those moments throughout my life. They're very marked. I mean, there were Ebenezer's in my life where like someone said stopped and looked at me and said, Hey, whatever it was. Right? And I think it's such a valuable thing that we just don't we undervalue that to get courage, to get courage, to be encouraged by someone that is ahead of you, that you go, I'm alone. This is my life doesn't make sense. No one's felt this way. And somebody goes, hey, actually, like, I have felt that way. You're not alone. It's gonna be okay and you're normal. It's just just as simple as that. It's not like they give you any more money. It's not like they get you out of your problem, but it's just to hear someone that can look at you, square up with you, and go, hey, this human experience is a collective shared experience and I'm with you in it. You know what? That that I love you sharing experience, and I'm with you in it. You know what? That that

I love you sharing that. I was thinking over the past couple weeks, I've been thinking about that every single one of us lives in an alternate reality. I mean, you could be talking to me and I could be talking to you, and we have we're all standing on different planets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the moment we step off the planet and into being human, which is the language of the experience of being human, which is the language of the heart, we're on the same ground. Yeah. You just said that there there can be somebody ten years older or whatever turns around and says, hey. And you say, I'm the only one. He says, well, I've got a story to tell you about this is where I was. This is what happened. This is where I am now. All of a sudden you can rest or you're aroused, like encouraged, like, hey. Okay. So maybe I'm not alone. And what's amazing is, the alternate reality it maybe sounds so weird, but the alternate reality only has a cure through connection. Yeah. And the connection can only occur when we're speaking the same language. And the only language we have that makes us the same is emotional reference points, like recognition of life affecting us all the same way, though we may be, you know, melanin differences and cultural differences and country differences. But the human experience is the same everywhere, I think. Well, it's But what makes it different is our our unwillingness or inability to speak into it.

Hey. This is Stephen James. Thanks for listening to the SAGELL podcast. I'm here with Chip Dodd. I hope you're enjoying our conversation with Dave Barnes. We got some things coming up we want you to know about. This fall. We have a satchel training where Chip and myself and some other of our colleagues put on a training for about 21 people, no more than 21 over the course of three weekends. It's really helping professional people, helpers go deeper into their life of serving from a Christian context. And what does it mean to love the world and engage the suffering in the world with passion and purpose and intimacy and boldness? And it's one of the only times that you get like the whole Sage Hill team together in one room. And, it's a really awesome thing. If you want to find out more about that, you can go to sagehilltraining.com. Also, if you want to stay more in touch with things going on with chip Dodd and Sage Hill counseling, you can go to chipdodd.com where chip is consistently publishing thoughts and encouragements for you to follow, help you in your daily life. Or you can go to sagehillcounseling.com, and a little bit of the same, but also a little bit more information about how to get personal help through counseling, from the spiritual root system model. And back to our conversation with Dave Barnes.

I got a couple of I wanna take the conversation a whole different direction. Okay. Yeah. And I've got a great wrap up question. Great. Great. I'll I'll get the wrap up question because this is a good one. He's gonna get to go hang out with, Chip and Johanna Gaines. Johanna Gaines. Mhmm. And and you know who they are? Fixer upper people? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I did. Yeah. Yeah. Like Yeah. They got, like, a target. Waco, Texas. Yeah. Yeah. So you're going to play a and this is like a shameless plug for you Yeah. Because I'm not gonna go to Waco to hear you play. Yeah. But how excited are you to go hang out with them? You know, it's I I because I would be I would be like I kinda imagine Chip and I could be buddies. Yeah. You know? I think that's his spiritual gift.

Because then I think he just gets around people and like, we should be friends. It's like, you know, I get that a lot, because I feel the same way. It's I'm I'm really excited about it. They they have created such a cool thing, that whole Magnolia thing, and I do I don't know them, but I have a lot of friends that that know them. And I think they're such a good example of of of Are you gonna get to meet them? Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm I'm sure we can. Can you put in a good word for me while you're down? I mean, you guys have an in in house counsel. I'm so I I really, really like them. I I think they're a rare example of, like, you know, faithful people that are really great and and good at what they do and thoughtful and all those things. So I I'm I'm And playful. Yo. Yeah. Like, there's yeah. They don't take themselves too serious. Yeah. I do feel like Chip and I are gonna be best friends. I think you are. I'm gonna push really hard. I'm gonna I'm gonna keep cornering him. He's like, I'm gonna talk this guy before you talk back. You just play it cool and hard to get. I've got I'm just gonna be doing all of my stand up routines. So anyway, I don't know if you have kids, Chip. You do okay? Let me talk. I don't do about the neti pot. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. Chip's already had neti potted this morning. Have you ever neti pot? Oh, gosh.

Yeah. That'll be The other question is I I need to understand these these duets you do on Instagram where you're a woman and a man. Yeah. That's it. I just need to understand what that is. So so one of the best things so this filter comes out. I saw, like, somebody do it forever ago, and so I didn't really think about it. And then nobody else really doing it, and I was like, well, if nobody else is gonna take the baton, I will. And so, you know, do you know about what he's talking about? Well, this is sad, but you you had to ask me about Chip and Joanna Gaines. So I'm glad you had to explain it to me. But it's it's a you can get in this app, and the app, if you look at it, makes you look like a woman. Okay. But if you turn your head, it doesn't because, obviously, you're not looking at it to activate whatever it is. So you go back to being a man? So yes. Okay. So you can so you can do a duet. You're singing, and then this is the woman singing and then when you turn, it's the man singing. And so it's just been but here's the best part about that. I wanna get Chip Nod doing that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You'd be a beautiful woman. I don't know if you've heard that. Yeah. Tall, tall, six foot nine. Beautiful. Seven foot two. Seven foot two. You're gonna be huge by the end of this podcast. But my wife, this is this was, like, one of the greatest stories with that. I I you know, because when I do these videos, the like, the longer I do them, I want to be good, so I do numerous takes of them and I'm sweating at the end. If you watch, you'll see me red face in some because I've done 50 takes. I thought you put on blush. No. No. No. That's real. That's real. That's God given blush. So I'm in the back, you know, and the way that my house works is you walk out of the back of it and you're up, you know, and there's kind of a landing. You walk down in the yard. But from the landing, my studio is not 30 feet away, so you can kinda see right down into it. So I'm back there unbeknownst so Annie has a friend of ours from school who she doesn't know well, this this lady. Like, it's it's we've taken her son home and then my son's playing with him until the woman comes by and she's like, oh, show me around the house. She's in the house. They walk back on the landing. Weird American cultural thing. When someone comes to your house the first time, you give it to somebody in the house. That's weird. Let me show you what we have. So so she goes to show her that we have a studio and Let me show you my stuff.

Let me show you my stuff. Come in. In this closet. Yeah. You gotta take someone to your bedroom because this is the first time at your house. Yeah. I'll just show you my master bedroom. Yeah. This is where we sleep and, well, do other things too. Don't look at my clothes. Yeah. Yeah. Open the garage doors, honey. Those are our cars. But but so she walks out back on the little landing and she looks down into the studio and I am mid a duet. So I'm turning my head. I'm singing. I'm turning my head. And literally and and if you know I mean, Stephen knows Annie well, but my wife is She is no nonsense. No nonsense. So she's like she literally she said, Dave, I stood there, and I went, oh my gosh. And the girl goes, what is he doing? And Annie goes, nothing. Let's just go back. She's like, well, no. Is he okay? He said, he's fine. Let's just go back to him. Are you okay? So I walk in after this woman has left, and Annie looks at me. She goes, I think she said imagine her saying this. She goes, I've been saying all the years from marriage. I've never been born before. And so I start crying laughing because I just imagine so I end up like, Dave Barnes is crazy. She said, David, I was arguably angry. Like, it wasn't just like, what's he doing? I was like, why are you doing this right now? Why do you Oh my gosh. So so I She's a pharmacist. Yeah. Yeah. She's super

straight. So I'd get the video done and I send it to both the woman and Annie. I said, just so you know what I was working on, and the woman was like, oh my gosh, this makes so much more sense. Definitely worth the time. But Annie was like, I'm so glad you sent it. So she didn't think So she could look at Annie and say, why aren't you treating that? Why aren't you? Yeah. If you have the drugs, just give them to him. So could Annie actually could Annie actually go through her life and never see that kind of thing? Oh, yeah. She's, like, good with that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. She's very unamused. She's she's just an injury. I get that. The other other weird thing that because I haven't got to see you in a while to talk about this, is these hot takes you do. Oh, yeah. You know a lot about music. Like, it's ridiculous, the depth and nuance. I I don't know what the words mean half the time you're talking about. But you know a ton about music. Have you always known that much about it? Well, you know what? Can I say thank you for saying it? But can I I think

I think y'all would be the same with counseling? I I think the trick is I think you know a lot about counseling because I don't know a lot about counseling. I think you know a lot about you know, you I know a lot of music. You don't know about music. Yeah. So I think it's tricky because, you know, when it's just like if I really sat with you all and said, once a month, you gotta tell me five things I wouldn't know about counseling, but you would be able to do that for a long time. Yes. And you'd probably be surprised at how long you could do that. Yes. I mean, if you really sat down and went, God, Dave wants to know five things about counseling people, you'd be like, that's pretty easy. Next week, oh, I actually have five more. Oh, I have two that happened today. Yeah. And then three that happened yesterday. That was really so I think it's funny because it's been really kind because a lot of people tell me that, which means a lot because I think, oh, you just and I'm like, well, yes. But I mean, if you're gonna get But do you have a master's in music theory? Well, it's just like if it's something that's your profession, I think you'd be surprised at how much information you gather to make it your profession. But you know, even as you just just described it, your your hands went up from your heart up to your throat. I mean, it's like it's something you love, so you're gonna, like, go swim in it. Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be organic. Well, you know, I think too, like, I think what's been the most fun about that, and I've gotten so much joy from this, is seeing I think people I think it is always fascinating to hear someone talk about

something they know a lot about. Yeah. And I think Well, that's why I watch them. Yeah. Like, actually, I really don't understand after, like, two Yeah. Two to five, I can kind of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hang on. But I I love watching somebody do what they do. I love watching people passionate about what they do. Yes. You know? I mean, how do you explain all of the DIY show? I mean, it's like that's that whole industry is is a lot of that too. But I think what's fun about it, I have it has made me laugh so hard. I think the biggest demographic that I get response from is, like, 30 and 40 year old moms. Like, I've had so many women at my church come up to me and go like, oh, I think it's hysterical. I'm like, first of all, you follow me on Instagram.

Tell me your name again, Bob. That's a pretty name. Dave, can I be you for like a minute? Is that your Christian name? Yeah. Dave Bob. My biggest problem is security and 40 women talk to me all the time. Let me tell you how hard my life is. I'm really having a hard time just like handling but they say I think it's so interesting. They all they all love that. Yeah. And and that's they'll go, Dave, I know it's so random, but, like, I love your and I'm your 55 text. And I'm like, really? And they're like, oh, I think it's and again, they'll say, I don't know what you're talking about, but I just think it's fascinating. I'm like, like, but I think there's something to people when someone that really loves what they do and they have knowledge about it stops and just goes, hey. Here's some like, I mean, obviously, my love for soccer, like, here's if Ronaldo I mean, lord knows I'm not I mean, no. Forget Ronaldo. That's too high of a thing. Like a guy that plays for Norwich City says, Hey, I'm gonna tell you five things about soccer that you don't know a month. Then he goes, When you get signed to a club, these are the things that you know, Well, that's interesting. Second thing, like, balls are actually not as inflated as you think they're. You're like, What? I'm immediately fascinated by this because it's insider knowledge. You know? It's like you have to you have to give up something to get that knowledge. Yeah. So it's been funny to just see how people, you know I've been so surprised. I I did that as just a fun thing, and it I don't know in my career if I've seen something

so immediately be like, dude. So you think if Chip and I did five things you need to know about counseling, people would I do. Listen to them all the time. Hey. Well, let's let's try that. I don't think people would. No. I do. I think I think I think if it's stuff, it's I've been sharing what I'm passionate about for years, and I People are like, oh my god. Yeah. Thanks. Like, more feelings. Yeah. You're staring at me. Why are y'all staring at me? Say something. You know? So I actually have a question for you. I wanna turn the tables before this thing is done. Help me. I do not wanna forget. I've got what I really wanna answer to this. I wanna hear. So here's here's the question I have for today, which we've talked about some, but what are y'all's perspectives on, like, the responsibility of gifts? Like, if you have a gift, like, where do y'all sit on, like, what you should do with it? You know what I mean? Like, how do how do y'all think about that?

It's a great question. I'm gonna let you go first as I'm thinking. I'll tell you what. That that is that is actually something I think a lot about, and so there's so many ways we can go with it. But without doubt, I believe that that these little human beings, all of us, we're grown wired and gifted. We're going wired to be human, and we're grown we're we're born gifted. And, I mean, I think I'm getting to do a whole lot of what I was born to do by by hook and crook, so to speak, warp and woof. You know, it turned out the way it turned out, but it could have been many things. And what what happens is either those gifts are taken from us early and bent in certain directions to be used in certain ways for the benefit of those people around us who need us to be certain ways Yeah. Or somebody takes time to turn around and see those gifts and grow them and develop them into really more purely what they're made to be so we can choose to go what we're gonna do with them. But it's like so we either use those gifts to, get from the world, what we think the world can give us if we do these things. Like, I I perform personality. Yeah. Yeah. I perform and then I get paid. Yeah. Or we actually, value how we're made and and the gift becomes something. And a gift means I've got something and gift means that there's something I probably wanna offer. So gift turns into a giving. You know, I'm gifted. I wanna give. And and it's like so either it's like we use it to manipulate or we use it to offer something and we can't help it. So I really believe it's like like a gift puts a person into position to experience a call. In other words, the world's gonna present a person who's gifted with an announcement to, like, come this way. Share yourself. Share yourself. Yourself. Yeah. And then that person will become inspired to step into it, which means they they breathe in the spirit of what they're made to do. So they've got a call, which is like, well, how do I go do this? And then there's this inspiration. It's like, I don't know how to do it, but I know I can't stop moving towards it or thinking about it or or, like, fashioning my life or looking for people to tell me how to do it. It's like, I can't stop this, which means it's bigger than a person's sort of like thinking not to do it. It's like it comes from within. So a call plus being inspired equals being compelled. Mhmm. And compelled literally is like like like this thing pushes me. I don't I don't I I gotta go. I gotta go where it goes. I got to. And so it's like that to me is like the real gifted person that they're not they they've given up using their gifts to ply the world for for hits. Wow. They're they're actually stepping into this vulnerability territory that, you know, give me liberty or give me death, but I can't stop doing this. Yeah. And and because I want to give this away because people need this thing. Mhmm. And I even I even think and this is a little bit long, but I even think that if we don't recognize our greatness and gifts equal greatness because we have something somebody needs, if we don't recognize our greatness, then we will harm people with our blindness. Because somebody I've gotten a lot of feedback lately about, like, when you don't recognize your value, Chip, you'll try to make yourself valuable. Yes. And when I try to make myself valuable, I'm trying to impress upon somebody to award me something that I don't see them as seeing the value of. Instead of just, you know, being who God made me be, take it, leave it, or God will guide me towards offering it where it needs to be. Or or anyway, I'll stop with that. But but, I mean, Gifts, you you you got them, and you're clearly, you know, offering yours. And it's just I think it's just so important to not allow our gifts to get wrapped up in the world taking them and using them for its benefit versus Well, and and those those of us who have gifts that are monetizable,

right, when our gifts are monetizable, we can make money for them. Right? Or we get appreciated for them or, you know, notoriety for them. Some of that's easy to think those gifts are more valuable than other gifts. And, really, could go back to some of the stuff at the beginning of the conversation, the real gifts that last, that you're remembered for Mhmm. Are not the things you really get paid for. It's it's who you are as a person. Right? And so I'm watching Whether paid or not. Whether paid or not. I'm watching Heather. I mean, you know, as as she's moving in this transition of children getting older, her primary calling for the last twenty years has been Mother. Is mother. Right? And and she'll always be mother, and, our children are requiring less energy of her. You know? Mhmm. And so she's this question of, like, what's what am I to do with my life now? And she's, I mean, she's a better rider than me. She's we all know she's kinder than I am. Right? We she's and to to see her kinda rest in the fact that she's already done a life's work. You know? She's not even 50 yet, and she's done a life's work out of her giftedness. Mhmm. But there's no gonna be any billboards for it. There's no there's no byline on a book. There's no one standing in line. And, because her giftedness, she's not tried to monetize. You know? And some of that is hide it under a bushel, right, because of her story. Whereas mine is like, hey. Go out and look at me. I need attention. Tell me I'm valuable, which is the same side of talk different sides of toxic shame. Right? But but I think talk about gifts. I think it's so easy for people to think about vocation and not what their unique makeup is that reveals the holy. Like, what's my I'm responsible to participate in the creation of life by offering what I have to offer. Man. Right? And because in capitalism, we get paid to offer things and make value in the world Yeah. Some of our gifts are easily deep gifts that you can't make a dime on. Yeah. Right? I mean, you can't. You know?

As a tear drops his eyes. And, excuse me, and that doesn't make his gifts less valuable. Actually, most of his giftedness is eternal. I mean, it's really his kingdom beauty work that he's creating. And Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You're welcome. And I would encourage everybody who's listening to this to kind of I love that question, Davis have the courage to name how you're made, what you're made for, and where are you offering it. Yeah. You know? Because we I need people offering their gifts in the world because it makes the world a safer place, a better place to live. Right? Yeah. Well, you know, it's it's funny. This is that's been a real struggle of mine for the last couple years. When I started doing these because, you know, music has always been musings, which has been great, but my ability to make people laugh and has always been sort of this like tributary to the mainstream which is music. And then a couple years ago, I was doing these stand up shows, and this woman came backstage that was a friend of a friend, and she just said, man, that really blessed me. At the stand up show, there's no music. It was just stand up. And, and I literally was like dumbstruck because I was like, what do you mean that I literally said, what do you mean that blessed you? She said, well, it really blessed me. It was really funny, and I was like, but what do you mean blessed you? She's like, well, I had a terrible day. I came into the show. I laughed a lot. It released these endorphins. I don't feel like I felt when I walked in. I get to go and be a happy mom. Like, I would not have been and it really it just jacked my brain. It was amazing because first, I was like, I I and I I'm I'm telling you the truth. I did not think about my humor like that. I thought, that's a fun little thing. I don't know. You know? But all of a sudden, it was like, oh, wow. One, that's amazing, and is that really I guess that is a gift. Like, I can really that's and then it became it sort of turned itself into this, like, Pilgrim's Progress thing, and now it sort of sits on my back sometimes and me feeling this, like, so do I what does that mean I have to do it? It doesn't mean you have to turn into a job. That well, and that's what I struggle with. It's feeling like is am I and I mean this is all shame, but it's like am I gonna get to have which I know the answer is, but am I gonna get having one day and God's like, look, that was good. I don't know if you knew this, but we sort of, like, supercharged you on humor, and let's just say you didn't quite you know? Like I need a thirty minute tight set, please. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just real quick for everybody. And would you do these couple of bits? We'll be good. But, you know, it's become a real struggle, and I think especially now, and this is circular, when you juxtapose it against these things you do, like the church, you know, ways I can give from being home that really bless things that matter to me, that I know I'm called to my family, my friends, my church, the same humor blesses them. It's the same exact humor, you know. Is that as valuable, equally valuable, not, you know, then there's it sort of feels like in my brain I kind of go, well, there's this or this, and it's just really weird. I know it's not that, but it's like that's, you know, y'all had great answers to that because I think it is more clarifying because it's it's just that weird tension of going,

what do you do with this? Where does it land? Well, but one of your gifts, oddly, is the gift of receiving attention. Like, not everybody is made to stand up in front of people and enjoy it. Yeah. Right? And so I would even say that's a gift. That that your desire and willingness to step in front of a camera or to Mhmm. Or to get on stage or to get behind a microphone or to, you know, like Yeah. And you can either seek that for your own fulfillment. Right. But for his own For your own emptiness. Right? Or the own validation or you can offer yourself invalidation. You're gifted. This is like, I'm made to get in front of people. Mhmm. And it's okay that you're not. I think of the movie 300 where, you know, the they're defending the past. Right? And the army's coming to the storm. And Leonidas gives that guy that one job. Right? He wasn't fit to serve in the legion, but he could go stand up on the on the cliff and make sure their backdoor was covered. Right? And that guy, Shame, could not accept the real important job. Mhmm. And he was the downfall of the of the group. Yeah. You know? Because his own shame, he wasn't like Leonidas. And He didn't want to be himself. He didn't want to be himself. Somebody else. Other than he was. And I think for the for people whose gifts aren't lauded publicly, I think it's easy to compare them to people who get lauded publicly as going, you know, I should be like that. I should be like that. And people who get public attention, I think, need to recognize they have a responsibility to live out their giftedness until they're done with it. Mhmm. Because it's it's hard to stand up in front of people if you're not made to do it because it's I know it's hard to do it when you're made to do it. Mhmm. You know? And so go do it, Dave. Like, seriously, go do it. Yeah. You know? And I was thinking that the only Yeah. And your last question too. Yeah. The the

the the the only thing about you you talked about you know you're gifted, and then all of a sudden, you start asking these questions and, you know, people can't see it, but you describe it like it getting on your back. And then it's like I think we have to be careful, if you know you've got something to offer and there's a world in need of it, that it doesn't become should Yeah. With the big should. You said, you know, it's your shame, but, like, if if I'm not doing it, then then I'm committing I'm gonna be punished. Mhmm. Do you know? And, I think we have to be so careful because once that should starts happening, I think relationships get lost because should equals really selfishness, ultimate true selfishness. It's like I'm offering something so I can get something instead of I'm giving something because I have it. Yeah. You know, it's like it's but I just I just you never you we're never gonna give enough. Yeah. If we're attempting to fix the world, it's not gonna change because it's not gonna change. Yeah. But relationships do change. I mean, people get changed in relationships like one at a time, two at a time, four at a time. And I love that that woman said, you blessed me, but you were being yourself. You were also entertaining. You were doing hard work. Mhmm. Because when you're doing your gifts, it doesn't seem hard to people watching it, but at the end of it, you're good tired. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're tired, but it's good tired, like you ran who you were made to be. But she literally said, like, you fed me. Yeah. And you were thinking of it as something that was funny. And it's, no, it's food. Because when a person's in their gifts, they're they're delivering food. Mhmm. It's food to the heart. Mhmm. Sometimes it's it's to the stomach, but even food for the stomach is food for the heart if we didn't know where it was coming from and somebody gave it to me. You know? So, I mean, when a person's in their gifts, they are feeding hearts, and people's lives are better because that other person said opened their hand and said, do you want this? Yeah. That's great. I think it's amazing.

It's just it's been such a it last it's just been so bizarre because it's it's something I enjoy doing. It's not, you know, it's not like the thing that motivates me like music does. So it's just been this really fascinating Yeah. You know what I mean? What could you have been wishing you were less funny at stand up? Stand up comedy is I've had a son who's gotten way into understanding stand up comedy, and he's taught me a little bit about it. It is so hard. Yeah. Like, the construction of jokes, the tightness of it, the working out material, the cadence, the order, the the narrative, the meta narrative that's being told. Mhmm. You've got have you, listened to James a Acaster? Mhmm. You watched his check out James Acaster on Netflix. The meta story of what he's doing as a stand up comedian will blow your mind. Wow. You you just said something about the difference between being gifted and compelled

because a person who's gifted can just simply be gifted and just sort of toy with it. But the person who's compelled, they go learn learn about how to do the art of it. You know, it's amazing, isn't it? Like Yeah. He's learning he's he's willing to work on the expressing the art. Yeah. Like, it's the difference. So when you wrap up, you said you had one more question. Well, you know, something else too. Just because you're gifted at something doesn't mean you need to do it. I remember one of my sons, I said, man, you would be such a great coach. And and he said, hey, dad. Just because I'd be good at something doesn't mean doesn't mean I need to do it. Yeah. Kinda like, well,

okay. The student has become the teacher. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, And, but it was a great lesson. It's like, yes. Just because I I could be good at something doesn't mean I need to do it. So, you know, that I hope that was that's fascinating. This is my question. There's a, you may have heard of the artist, Bebo Norman. I love Bebo. Yeah. Chicken Chip does too. Yeah. I had two songs. Okay. Yeah. That's The only artist I hear you ever played for Be Van Oran, he's had an album ten years. And, you know, Kim Hill. Hey, listen. Kim Hill. Kim Hill. Kim Hill. You side bar. Love Kim Hill. Side bar. The reason I'm playing music is about 50% Bevan Orin. Really? Yeah. He we met. I was obsessed with his music when I was in college. I just started playing music. We did a Young Life camp together where I was on summer staff, which is the month long college service, and he was music. And we spent hours together, and I was in heaven because this was a guy that I just idolized. And he was great and super I actually played for him, played drums in his concerts Really? For the camp.

And I mean, he was a and then he introduced me to Ed Cash who is basically like a big brother who I worked on, but he's a huge part of my story, B Boys. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. That's cool. Because I You didn't know that? No. Not at all. Yeah. But I knew he you you you said or before you got started that you'd written a song for him for him. Yeah. So what what what song? It's called The Way We Mend. It was on a couple of records ago. I'm sure I love it. Yeah. Well, you know what? I didn't think question about that. I'm getting my question. But what William had spinal surgery, my youngest, and had a tumor taken off his spinal cord, actual cord. Yes. Horrible. In such excruciating pain that, it was just insomnia sat with him hour after hour after hour. Only thing she could touch on his body was his foot that didn't hurt or irritate from being touched, and and she, you know, she had to touch him. She couldn't, you know, not touch him. And the only thing that rested him was Beboe Norman. Jeez. The songs over and over, over and over. Just his body would rest. Isn't that something? So but but he's he has a song that that called Trees. Are you familiar with it? It's it's When the Tree Stand Still. Oh, I love that song. Yes. That that that to me is a fascinating song. It's almost like a it's a message song, but this whole conversation that we've had is so much about how do I find that place where I know it's okay, and how do I get to this place where I know it's okay? Because the song's about what's what matters Yeah. The children, the the family, the spouse. And I wanna get to a place where the tree stands still So because somehow it's like I could picture, like, looking out through the bus window and everything's flying by. Mhmm. And I think the song was written. He's he's a young child of 23 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talking about Yeah. You know, so already at 23, thirty three, forty three, fifty three, eighty three, thirteen, we're all looking for this place where it's safe to be ourselves, we can rest, where love matters most, where life's worth giving ourselves to it. Mhmm. Do you know? Mhmm. And so this to me, this whole wonderful conversation I'm so glad. I really am glad you were willing to Yeah. Thanks. Talk with us, Stephen and and Dave. But it's like we're all we we all need to take the risk of daily and even as a life focus, I think, of getting to the place where the tree stands still. That settling in, digging roots, you know, letting life matter, letting it affect us instead of running up this sand hill that there's just gonna be more sand, more hill. Yeah. And then dry us out, wear us out, and then we get to the top of the sand hill and it's like, okay. Yeah. Arid. And there's nothing here. Yeah. You know? So I love your career that

you you're you're living and struggling with where the trees stand still. Questions now. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. Quick aside. You know, Bebo's a great case study actually for everything we talked about, you know, because at 40, he retired. That's what I understand. Yeah. Hadn't picked up. I actually had lunch with him a couple years ago and, I was just like, what do you do? Like, catch me up. And and he just told me the whole story. Like he and I'm you know, it's interesting even I mean, God, he would have been, yeah, mid twenties when I met him, maybe early twenties. And even then, you could tell, like, he's not like me. Like I'm obsessed with music. I think he enjoys it, but he doesn't seem to be, like, breathing, eating, sleeping music. And, and I think he knew by late twenties, he's like, this is not the long game for me. But that's juxtaposed against a guy who could really move people. I mean, really move people with his music, But he just kinda was like, this just isn't this isn't the long game. And so he's I think I actually talked to a guy that saw him the other day. I think he's studying to be a physical therapist now. Mhmm. That's what I heard. Yeah. And He's doing what he's compelled to do. And he hasn't picked up a guitar in five years. No kidding. Like, I think he just said it's it's in the corner of the room. I just I haven't even looked at it. And and so it's just really

But, you know, I don't I don't see that as somebody who quit. That's right. I see it as someone who gave gifts Yep. And switched. That's right. But the gifts are still there. Yeah. Johnny Appleseed. You know apple trees are still there. And we will end with Johnny Appleseed. Please don't. Don't. Sun and the rain and the something with that, please. The Lord's been good to me. Something we've got. Please, come on. Well, that's what the podcast is for, just planting seeds across the map. How pitiful it is when you have to say, you know who Chip and Joanna Gates is? That's and then Dave catches on and goes, well, do you know who so and so is? Is? Like, no. Notorious b I g was my takeaway. Yeah. That's b I g. I thought it was big.

It's b I g. Wow. So that's my takeaway from today. Chip, what's your takeaway? I'm good. Thank you. Alright. Yeah. My takeaway is, I'm glad you're here, Dave. Thank you. Thanks for sharing with us. It's great. Thanks so much. Man, Chip, that was fun with Dave. Truly enjoyable. I mean, you know, when when, the conversation's true enough and the affinity is just there, it really is it's replenishing. It's full. Everybody leaves full. Yeah. And so I would say We couldn't stop the tape. We just kept going and going. There's more that we could even report. You know, and David adds to it and takes from it. And, we were all doing the same thing, and I I really appreciated that. It's very good. If you want Dave's got a great,

Instagram feed where he does some hilarious things and And I've seen have you seen his face? The the the Two faced woman. Yeah. It's worth it's worth watching. I could see how come the story told that lady was Yeah. The friend was scared. Dave Dave Barnes music and, check out he's got a new podcast coming out called Dadville. Look for that on your local podcast feed. It's I'll actually be featured in it. Chip's gonna be featured in the next season of it where Dave and one of his friends interview fathers about what does it mean to be a father who's full hearted and engaging the world and, be on the lookout for that. It's a really cool podcast. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast, and we will see you soon. Thank you.

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