The Invisible Dragon

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey. This is Stephen James, executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill Live Fully podcast. I'm joined today by my good friend, Dr. Chip Dahn from chip..com. We're discussing our new book, Hope in the Age of Addiction, How to Find Freedom and Restore Your Relationships. Hey, Chip. Hey, Stephen. How you doing, man? Well, you know what? I'm doing great. That's great to hear. It well, it's not really true. It's not true? No. I don't think anybody is doing great right now. Yeah. It's Actually, you know, I I'm scared. Yeah. And I'm I'm grateful, but I'm scared about what's happening in our society right now. Yeah. Yeah.

So we've got this new book out, Hope in the Age of Addiction, How to Find Freedom and Restore Your Relationships, Revel Press. And we're we're doing a series of podcasts where we're going chapter by chapter talking about, this this pandemic of addiction Yeah. And how it's destroying us from the inside out. Yes. Right? And how it's an ancient problem. And literally, societally and individually. From the inside out. Yes. It's like being eaten alive. And and it's an ancient problem, but there's it seems to be there's a moment in time where it might be worse than it's ever been. Yeah. Tipping point. Tipping point from an addiction standpoint. We have a chapter in the book called the invisible dragon. Yeah. Right? Which is a little poetic and metaphorical.

Just like the parenting book, we wanted to call it giraffes on ice. Yes. They said no. Thank you. Yeah. And then we wanted to call this one the invisible dragon. They said no. Thank you. Yeah. Which So hope in the age of addiction is great. People love the cover, by the way. Yeah. It's a great I love the cover. The they did great. Of all the books I've written, this is my favorite cover. It's a great cover. In fact, that's what people say. Yeah. Yeah. Of all the books. No. No. No. No. No. I'm sorry. No. No. That's what people are actually saying. Great cover. Oh. I've heard that. So So we we talk like, so it's a metaphor we use to describe this this invisible, powerful beast that's roaming Mhmm. And that's always present and is ready to devour us Yeah. At any given time. It can come into your house no matter how you seal it.

It can find a way to get into your lives no matter how you practice avoiding it. Mhmm. Because until you face the thing that it trains us not to face, and it's gonna get us. Yeah. Now that's scary. It's super scary. Yeah. And it it yeah. And so in the book like, you know those horrible movies that never show the monster? Like, Hitchcock was famous for doing movies. Was it the Blair Road or Blair? Blair Witch. Blair Witch? I mean, they didn't see that. Okay. Well, some it's like they never showed. Yeah. They just ran from it. Yeah. Right? Because what you showed is not as scary. Exactly. But this is. Yeah. Yeah. And it isn't. There's a solution to it, but it's a destroyer. Yeah. So there's two things that we talk about in the book. The book Hope in the Age of Addiction. There's two things. I'm gonna keep using that joke. I think Hope in Age of Addiction is a great title. Yeah. There's two things we talk about that kind of feed the dragon. Right? Yes. And we said that that denial and dissociation Yep. Are the kind of two primary things that feed the dragon of addiction. And now that that denial and dissociation is both personal Yep. Right? About the problem of addiction Yeah. And it's also cultural

It's it's it's like a step step up. It's like personal, familial Yeah. Then, outside relational, then neighborhood, then culture Yeah. Then nation. And and it's it's like a a movement. Yeah. And the these are the two substances that the dragon feeds on in order to, like, eat the hearts of people. Right? Yeah. You know, Stephen, a a great analogy to the invisible dragon, not to a a a word picture for it, is remember the emperor with no clothes Yes. And the the the one child out of all the crowd, when the emperor came out and was was naked. Yeah. Right? And all the people are applauding as they're supposed to, out of touch with, in denial, and dissociated from how they're made, which we'll talk about. But this little child, almost like the way Jesus says, let them come unto me because they get it. Right? And and this little child says, but daddy, he's he doesn't have any clothes on it. He naked. Yeah. He's he's so they say he's naked. And the father looks at him like you are a bad child or shocked. Like, how dare you say something like that? He had broken all of the rules of the system. Yeah. And then everyone starts staring at the child and then the float stops where the emperor is on, and then someone dares to dare to look paying attention to what the child said. And before you know it, the emperor's turned red and running because they woke up. They came out of denial. Yeah. So some so the we're hoping this book is that child. We're asking people to take a willingness to look at this book as a child has said, but that hurts or that's scary or that's sad or what are you doing that for or how come that's like that or how come you're leaning over the commode vomiting because it doesn't look like it has to be. One of the hard

things when we think about addiction, is addiction's bad. Like, it's it's bad. It kills people with Like slavery. People. It's like slavery. It means slavery. Yeah. And they're really, really good, well meaning people who who find themselves trapped in the lair of the beast. Yes. The idea of standing in judgment. I mean, the emperor wanted to belong, wanted to matter, wanted to be important, wanted people to believe that he was what he appeared to be. Yeah. He'd been trained to have to carry a certain responsibility of appearance and and and productivity, and yet he didn't know what to do with the fear of not measuring up. He didn't know what to do with the difficulties of loneliness. He didn't know what to do with sadness. So bad, addiction in in in and of itself is not about bad people. Right. Addiction is a terrible illness that happens to people who don't know what to do or don't have an avenue to deal with how they're created.

So let's talk about how we use denial to cope with having to deal how we're created. Uh-huh. So we're created as emotional spiritual creatures. Truly are. To live fully in relationship. Even neuroscience has begun to back that up. Everything backs it up. It really has, finally. Right? And when we're not living fully in relationship or even when we are, like, it's it's painful and it's beautiful and it's painful and it's beautiful and we don't like the painful. Yeah. We certainly don't like the movement between painful and beautiful. Right. Right. So we just wanna have, I feel good. I wanna be comfortably numb. I I want to have the the good, good, beautiful, wonderful, rich existence of life that any of the pain of life. Yes. It's like like being on a roller coaster that's thrilling but makes you wanna throw up all the time but you never get off. Right. Yeah. I just want the thrilling part. I don't want the down. I just want the I want the tip of the hill. Oh, yeah. So let's talk about denial for a second, then we'll talk about dissociation. Yeah. Right? So these are the two defenses that addiction uses to stop us from seeing and feeling the consequences of what's happening in our lives. Yeah. Right? So denial, we write in the book, has five characteristics. Yeah. We'll talk about these and you kind of illuminate them a little bit. Don't see, don't feel, don't need, don't speak, and don't trust. Let me say that again. Denial works in five ways. Don't see, don't feel, don't need, don't speak, don't trust. Yeah. Talk a little I'm gonna go through this. So when we say don't see Yeah. Like, we literally mean

blind. Denial denial, the word, it it translates really literally means blind. And so it's not deny as in I'm lying. You're denying that. You're denying that. We we mean lying, but denial really means I'm blind. I cannot see. I can't see the emperor right in front of me who's naked. I can't. Yeah. And and so what is so powerful that we can make us blind? And it turns out that that addiction has a foundation. It has to stand in in on something. It has to be built on something. And all the research has shown over the past, really, forty five years that addiction has a foundation. It can only stand on top of the defense of denial. People around the addict, including the person who's addicted him or herself, has to be in denial. You have to be in denial. Otherwise, you're gonna point a finger and say, you're sick. Something's wrong. This isn't okay. So denial says, like, pretend like you're the addict, and both of us have come from places where we're very, very familiar with addiction. But children are trained because children are emotional, spiritual. They crave to belong and matter, just two primary needs out of many, many needs. And they hunger to be connected. They hunger to to have that bond. And grown ups never outgrow that. You never outgrow it. I mean, I you we've worked with with I've worked with fathers and sons. I remember father's 74 years old, bonding with a 54 year old son, and he had the same need of his father as a seven year old would. I mean, that doesn't end. You can't outgrow your You can't outgrow your desire, craving to be connected to the people who are your blood. Yeah. So in the family that is already controlled by the invisible dragon, the child is trained not to see what he sees because if he sees what he sees or she sees what she sees, she's gonna say something. Right? How come? Which we'll get to that. So if I see something, I'm gonna feel something. Like, if you seconds. If you don't see, then I don't feel it. Yeah. Exactly. So if you see a car crash on the side of the road, it's like, oh my goodness. There's a car crash. And then you have feelings about the car crash. And then you have a need connected to it. Do you know So if I've got the the the need to belong in matter

and I see something that might lead me to rejection or humiliation Yes. Right? Loneliness or shame, then I don't wanna see that so I don't have to feel Loneliness and shame. Loneliness. Right? Or fear. Or fear. Because fear is a a feeling that makes us cry out. Yeah. So I've got to not see what I'm looking at so I won't feel the fear. And then the fear is gonna make me cry out in need for security. And I've trained not to do that because, it it hasn't helped. In fact, it created the opposite, so I know not to talk about what's actually happening. Mhmm. Because if I talk about it, I'm gonna trust that somebody's gonna do something about it. So denial shuts down the creation of god. Denial actually acts demands that we foreclose on the truth of how we're created. So we're already set up at that point. If you have the genetic susceptibility and you're raised in an emotionally unavailable circumstances, you're not you're trained to belong in matter by being fake Yeah. Which and and and denial is required to sustain fakeness Yeah. Create a false self. Somebody says, are you know, even I would hear it say, does that hurt you? And I say, no. Are you scared? Uh-uh. Is that sad? Mm-mm. No. I believe too much for it to be sad. And and denial makes us create credos of vows. Right? Yeah. Like, the vow, be strong in body, mind, and spirit. That's how you get through life, where it's where we get all the stoicism

Yeah. And we get, the the redneck aphorisms. Got in the book we say, if your life was as hard as mine, you would blank too. Yes. Right? That's a mantra. Of of his or her own needs. The only time I get a break from stress is when I blank. Exactly. Right? Yeah. And that's the that's the supporting my own denial, which justifies me have the right not to feel. Yeah. What happened to me wasn't that bad. Minimizing the truth of what happened so we can avoid the grief because we don't know what to do with it. And a lot of times, if the grief is old, like from childhood, when we start to grieve or feel feelings about what actually happened, we feel like we are betraying the family, that we are set You are. Well, but see, the truth is you're not. You're betraying the addiction. You're betraying the code. Yeah. You're betraying the code. You're betraying the denial system, really setting people free. Yeah. You know, the emperor has no clothes like the emperor was set free. Yeah. And the the fake tailors had to leave town fast. Yes.

What the this is the stoic one. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Stoicism. It actually makes you more rigid and less flexible. Listen, the idea that Stephen And stoicism's in vogue right now. It's cool. Okay. Yeah. You have to educate me on that because, you know, stoicism is a joke. And the reason let me say that. Let me say this really quickly. The stoicism appears to be a highly sophisticated cognitive structure of managing the warp and woof of the difficulties of life. Right? Long sentence. A philosophy of rising above. Right. Yeah. And so the highest achievement, stoicism, really is detachment and apathy, to not feel. Yeah. And guess what? Every redneck I've ever grown up with already is the best stoic you'll ever meet. You say that because you're a redneck. You got it. You bet I can't. And and and and and this is what this is what we say. Hey, man. It all comes out in the wash. Don't let it bother you. What's the next one? It's water under the bridge. Water under the bridge, man. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. You can't take the heat, bro. Get out of the kitchen. I mean, that whole thing and this one. Even those euphemisms are a way of not telling the truth. Exactly. You know? I'm telling you. So so this sophisticated philosophy of stoicism is a joke that every single one of us who has a wound and has a a fixture on denying it uses. Well, and then there's the other side of it, which is like a a hyper,

like, sensitivity almost is, like, they did the best they could. Yeah. Excuse making. Excuse making. Yeah. Which is a which they may have been doing the best they could. Yeah. But when we use that to minimize our own internal experience Yes. It sets us up for addiction. And to to to to, rob a person of needing to do the hard work of amend making too. So now we're talking kinda like, all of us who are raised in the addictive atmosphere. And the addictive atmosphere isn't just that your mother was an alcoholic. The addictive atmosphere is being raised in a place in which feelings were weren't processed. You didn't have the freedom to say what you saw, so you could feel what you felt, so you could need what you need, so you could talk about what was going on inside of you, to learn how to be resilient, and to learn how to develop tolerance for vulnerability. And you couldn't trust that people would show up. Like the

the continuation excuse making is like making myself the problem. Like like, it was all my fault. I should've tried harder. I should've known better. Absolutely. So we start shooting ourselves from a very young age. Very young. Right? Because we're in that addictive culture. Yeah. And it's all driven. It's not driven by badness, and it's not driven by, something deformed in us. All of that's actually driven by goodness because the way we're created in heart is to hunger, to be cared about, and safe with another person Yeah. Especially our true caregivers. And so we will do anything to have that experience of belonging and mattering, including, and this is the great paradox, getting rid of ourselves. Yeah. We'll abandon ourselves in order to belong to ourselves. Yes. And so the the when we get to a place where we go, you know what? I can't trust that I will be loved for who I am, and all of a sudden that sort of expands into cultural society, our relational world and school and so on, we still have the craving to belong and matter. So now we're going like, I've gotta find a place to go that comforts that place that isn't bad relationships. Like belonging and matter and without the risk of belonging and matter. So really now we're talking we haven't talked about dissociation yet, but we're talking. To. Yeah. Two yeah. We're talking about two two territories already that the book begins to unfold is that, one, we're created as emotional and spiritual creatures, and we're created to crave fulfillment. Yeah. And two, we find it in relationship. So now we're talking accomplishment. No. And now we're talking about the solution to, addiction is emotional attending and education experience and relationship. And and no addict comes from a place where those two things were occurring. Yeah. You cannot become addicted if you you came from a place where that was where feelings were processed and relationship was assured. Can't happen because you can't be in denial.

So the others the other thing that feeds the dragon, so you get denial, and and you also have this this tool that we use, and sometimes it's even a gift called dissociation. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Even deny I'm glad you said gift because both of those are gifts, aren't they? They protect the child. Let us get through hard things. Yeah. Like, you know? Yeah. And they're helpful like in a car crash. Yeah. Denial and disassociation. Here right now. House fire. Yeah. You need to be able to be dissociative to go save the baby inside the house. Right? Go. Yeah. So, you know, so during times of stress and trauma, we can disconnect from ourselves, right, when things are too difficult just to operate. Right? And that's dissociation. Yeah. Like, the classic example is if you ever driven your car and you end up at a place you were going, but you actually don't remember driving there Yeah. That's dissociation. Your mind's gone somewhere else. Than that. Preoccupied with something else. And the more traumatic and stressful an environment is for somebody, the more likely they are to be dissociative. Yeah. Right? And the more and, you know, the the sense of trauma where someone's invading and we can't make meaning of what's going on and our psychology can't keep up with what's happening around us. We have a a psychological mechanism that, like, pulls the rip cord. We just parachute out Yes. Into daydreaming. We go to Mars. Yeah. Go to Mars. I mean, you'll see you'll see a child who's a lot of times being yelled at. Either they will, like, freak out, which means they're still there enough to be to act helpless

or they go to Mars. I mean, it's like you can shake their bodies, but Or a husband whose wife's telling him to do something. He's like, uh-huh. But he's not listening. You know, exactly. It's like he's I'm not here. But but it and but dissociation is a secondary result. Dissociations you had to have denial to to be able to support dissociation. What I think of it is is when denial stops working, then I've got this, like, nuclear weapon that I can use use to try to protect myself called dissociation. Yeah. Right? I'll always go to denial first, and then I go to dissociation. It's a secondary backup. It's it's it's power more powerful than denial. And the purpose of dissociation is so I will not experience myself and my surroundings as emotional or spiritual Yeah. To avoid the pain of living at that moment. Especially

if we don't have someone to go to to help us bear the pain. We're not made to bear the pain alone. Amen. Right? Amen. And so when we don't have somebody and our denial stopped working and we don't have a a person or a god that we can go to that can bear the pain with us of our life Yeah. We dissociate Yeah. And we go away. Yeah. And when we're we're in denial and we're in dissociation, we are primed for a substance to take in or behavior to do that that gives us a sense of being accepted and belonging in that Connection, comfort. Really having to Yeah. Risk the threat of being rejected. Yeah. Addiction actually Betrayed or numbs, anesthetize, stuns, or even excites the,

relational region of the brain. So I mean, it works. So let's we'll end this this episode with with this and just take a couple minutes to talk about this, that the way out of denial and the way out of dissociation is for us to begin to ask the most important question. Mhmm. Right? In the book, it's the Hebrew word, aikah, which means where are you? We talk about that word, aikah, for a second. Yeah. I just wanna end with that. In the garden, god comes into the garden after we used our brains to hide our hearts instead of using our brains to express our hearts. Did god really say the deceiver? Yeah. I asked. God comes into the garden and, you know, omnisciently already knows what's going on, but relationally experiences what just happened. Okay? So he literally says the word ayeeka translates into English, where are you? That's very simplistic. Ayeeka in the Hebrew world still used today is a lament like the beginning of a dirge. A death has occurred. And and and god says, where are you? Woah. Lament. Where are you? Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Where are you? Where are you? And it's a question of about the insides, and so the answer has to be from the inside out. And what was amazing was the man said to God, I was afraid, confession from the relational heart of a person, So I hid admission of what happened and willing to step into the abstinence of not living like that so they could have the life they were made to have. And instead of rejection occurring, god began Provision. Provision relationship again. Yeah. Now it's a long road to redemption. I get that. Because, you know, the first two chapters of this Bible are amazing. The last two chapters are great. And the rest is struggle. But the rest is a book that tells us tremendously how to live in the struggle, the cause of the struggle, how to to be free from, the struggle overwhelming. It's not freed from the struggle itself. And it means to bring your heart

to the God who made you and bring your heart to the people who you live with. And that this is a direct line from the book. Therein lies the ancient doorway to liberation and conversely the answer to how we become enslaved. Yes. It's not asking the question, where am I? Yes. Where am I? Where can I go with where I am? Yes. And so which means which means to actually tell the truth about the heart to someone who understands what that means, and in that is the beginning of a connection that could last. Thanks, Chip. Thank you, Stephen. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well@sagehillresources.com.