The Paradigm of Sickness and Recovery

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey. This is Stephen James, executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill Live Fully podcast. I'm joined today by my good friend, Dr. Chip Dahn from chip.com. We're discussing our new book, Hope in the Age of Addiction, How to Find Freedom and Restore Your Relationships. Hey, Chip. Stephen James. Hello. Alright, man. Well, this is the last installment in our special series on our new book Mhmm. Hope in the Age of Addiction. Yeah. Yeah. How to Find Freedom and Restore Your Relationships.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I I I love the title. I don't like the subtitle because it's it's it's honestly, it I would love subtitle to say, how to, address and revitalize that, a a a culture chaos. And that's why that's not the first one. So once again, thanks to the editors because the like I say, the parenting book was When you when you, the pandemic rising would be that an existential spiritual development. I know. I know. The the there's there's some things you give up when you partner to work with a publisher. You give up Yeah. Control of the cover, control of the title, control of the distribution. Yes. Control Copyright permission over real life. We're actually really grateful that we like so much of the book because it's not only ours anymore. We share it with someone. Yes. That's true. Yeah. And we're doing more with somebody than we

could do alone, which is Yeah. Trusting others. And I'm thankful to Revel's because of their interest. As we started out these podcasts, we were asked to do two books on parenting, and, we urged them, please do something that's even more important because parents can't parent if they're if they're involved in this pandemic in a negative way. So let's let's use this podcast to do two things, to wrap up. Let's let's review, you know, using the the paradigm of sickness and recovery that we have in the book of how people get sick and become addicts and how they come back to full life. Yeah. Let's use that model. Talk about that. Yep. And then let's let's end with the daily practices and disciplines of what it means to be a work in progress. Which is to keep heart. Yeah. How how do It's all about heart. What are the daily practical practices of keeping heart? How do I keep heart? Yeah. You know, this is a funny a little bit of a funny story, but I designed the paradigm,

of recovery is what I originally called. The book calls it taught something else, but paradigm recovery and sickness. But I had it on a a yellow legal sheet of legal pad, and, our clinical director at the Center for Professional Excellence, I would just use it to to teach the the the doctors and business people who are in treatment. Said, I'm showing them the whole picture of the development of addiction. And Phil is his name, and, he found it at my desk. I was just getting it out. He goes, what's this? I said, it's Paradigm Recovery. He looked at it. He goes he said he said so a few choice words, but basically, he's like, you dope. It's like, this is the whole thing. What are you doing? Sticking this in your drawer? Drawer on a piece of paper. So this is a poster too if anybody wants it. But Yeah. But the paradigm recovery is really the summation really sums up the whole book. It says we were born with a self, and we were born a certain way. And then if that if that self becomes rejected, in other words, I don't get to belong in matters I've created. Which it it will. It it it often happens unless if a child's being raised to process feelings, they will not do self rejection. Though life will harm and hurt for sure. But so it but if the child experiences abandonment, in other words, not getting to belong in matters I'm created, feelings are negative or bad, then that child will feel ashamed, toxic shame. So self becomes rejected because we're created to crave belonging and mattering. I will become ashamed of how I'm created because I need you so much. Mhmm. So I'll start having contempt for who God made me to be and start trying to become what you're looking for. Well, we even we even equate

that abandonment and trauma and so like, our our limbic brain equates those as threats of death. Yes. Right? So it's a it becomes a life or death experience. That's Stephen, that's really true because honestly, a child doesn't have a concept of death, but they have a concept of alone. Which is death. Yes. Which is which is death. Which is it's one that is one of the three hardwired threats every human has. Yes. Abandonment and aloneness equals death. Yes. That's real. Grounding. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And and and people who have a panic disorders will feel like they're suffocating. Yeah. And because it's the true self is crying out through the anxiety to save me, but but it means they're alone. Anxiety means helpless and more. So then I end up hating myself, having toxic shame. And and and and then John Bradshaw, Brene Brown, go look at toxic shame. But it's rejection of humility, though. Toxic shame is hatred towards myself for being someone who's made to ask, seek, and not, or somebody who's made to cry out, reach out, and take in. So codependency is the cover over toxic shame. I'll watch you to see who I need to be. I'm only as my my worth is wrapped up in your pleasure. I'm responsible for the great four destructive thought processes. I'm responsible for your feelings. I'm responsible for your thoughts and moods. I'm responsible for your actions. I make you do things. I can make you kill yourself by the way I look at you. I mean, that's twisted. Mhmm. But we we're raised to believe that kind of stuff, and then I'm a mind reader. Yeah. And and what what you're thinking. And my performance Co dependency. My then performance and your belief of me, I somehow believe I'm in control of like, if I make you feel good, then I exist. Yes. Yeah. And if I make you feel bad, then I'm ashamed. Yeah. So So that's codependency. If it's enslavement, that's addiction. So all my whole

life becomes looking outward at the people around me Yes. And I have no internal experience other than, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Yes. Like a fear of death all the time. Yes. And and until I can make something outside my world. Okay. So codependency is an external solution to an internal problem. It's exhausting. And it's addiction. It's exhausting. And it wears a person out. Now when a person is sick and tired of codependency, they can't take it anymore. They can't they're not, resilient. And the word the word you used, you know, the the misuse of resilient, then when a person says, okay, I've gotta have some rest. And that's where addiction kicks in. Addiction proper. That's where the pill, the process, the food, the exercise, the religion. Yeah. And our our advocacy for addiction is it's much, much broader

than ingesting substances that change our brain. Addiction is the thing you do to keep from experiencing vulnerability, I e feelings. And sometimes that's a drink or a smoke or a line or whatever we're doing. Yeah. Oftentimes for most people, it's not those things. Yeah. It is it is a behavior. It's a ritualistic pattern. Yes. It's a compulsive thought process. Yes. It could be a person dressing in a way that they're looked at and a person who looks at a person to get a hit. You know, in the in the love addict world, I mean, it's like just getting hits. Yeah. The eye contact for, three seconds will be a hit. Yeah. I better. And so that's how far we move. So self, rejection, toxic shame, contempt towards the self, codependency leads to addiction, anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, most of them, and personality disorders, which we didn't get into in the book. Right. We stayed with addiction proper, but almost all of our anxiety disorder problems, our depressive orientation problems, and and I'm not discounting that they're the the the physiological piece Yeah. And personality disorders are all related to codependency underneath it, the toxic shame that pushes us into codependency, the wounds that no one was there to help us with when we were rejected, and the self. So recovery is the the five things we just talked about in the last podcast, coming back to self. Yeah. And you come back to self. With that. The the addiction is reduced. The addiction slowly becomes small. You address the development that that makes you need to run away from people, codependency, because you don't see yourself as acceptable. You start to address where the contempt for yourself, being a self comes from. You deal with the struggles of your history of rejection. Remember, if you have feelings, one, you're gonna feel, then number two, you're gonna have memories. Well, these are the memories. One of the the biggest gift I've experienced my own recovery has been the transformation of toxic shame

into, like, healthy shame. Right? Is it Yeah. Like, I can't get away from shame. That's a that's a actually really important I'm glad to hear you say that because from what I understand, Brene Brown does not address healthy shame. I think that's a mistake. You see, because healthy shame is the experience of being human, neediness, dependence, the cry The psychological definition of not having shame is being a psychopath. Yeah. So I'm looking for some shame because we're all made out of dirt. And it's so powerful that it's we can so overuse it and it becomes toxic. Yep. Right? But without it, we are not good people. Like, we have no self awareness or awareness of other people. Hell, for shame is the ground from which we develop empathy. Yeah. And empathy allows us to have compassion

because I know what it's like to be human inside myself, all the pain and joys that I seek, all it makes me all the pain I have and the joys I seek. I can look at you and watch your face go, oh, that's familiar to me. What do you mean? Keeps me flattering myself with other people. Yep. It allows me to celebrate other people's, like, gifts. It allows me to accept their weaknesses. It allows me to accept my own limitations. You know what, Stephen? This is funny. Yesterday, a great example. There was a guy I was talking to. He's 70 years old and wonderful guy. I mean, he is a he's just a great guy. And he said, you know, he said he he did this deal and he's bringing in just a large amount of money per year. More than I'm ever gonna see in, you know, years. Right? And I was just talking to him, and and I I had a pen in my head. I I tapped him on the leg with the pen and started laughing my guts out. Like, god. That is so good. I mean, I love that. Like, you're getting that money, man. That's so great. He looked at me like, yeah. You know? And that is empathy, you know, like, that what a great experience to have that kind of thing. Compassion, like, the ability even to celebrate. I'm so glad for you. I don't have it. You got it, but I like you. I care about you. I think you're a good man. Yeah. And so, not that you deserve it, but I can celebrate you happy. Healthy shame allows us to celebrate. Healthy shame. Yeah. Humility is like It's one of the greatest gifts of recovery. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think he would want the same for me. Well, then that immediately

shrinks our codependency. And Stephen, you know, I'm okay not having what he's got. That's his path. But still the path, the path of humility, the path of being needy, the path of being human, the path of god's direction, the path of us, somebody who's got my back. I'm not alone. Who whispers wisdom into my right ear and my left ear? You know, we're in a herd. Mhmm. I'm moving towards the same place. And when we reject our human experience, we've we've stepped off the path into the wilderness, which we talked about. We're cursing ourselves. Hausoleation. Yeah. We're we're we're depending on our own strength and our hearts have turned away from how we're created and the God who created us. And so that that that humility, the recovery of self, our feelings, needs, desires, longings, hope, our our admission of being that, right, returns us to a sense of, like, relationship with ourselves, relationship with others, relationship with God, which then right side like, we then learn to experience pain. We learn to live in the struggle of life. Yeah. The joy and the sorrow. We've actually learned to tolerate our own feelings. Right? Yeah. Which then decreases our codependency. Yeah. Right? Our humility, we have become human again. Our codependency believes that we can control people or or we have to serve people in order to have it. And then our need for substances

that make us feel secure and safe and get smaller and smaller and smaller. It wanes. Yeah. It's it it is ever present, so we admit it. It's always there, still there. But it's it's it's more like a limp, Jacob's limp. It reminds us, oh, yeah. I saw god. The way I think about it. Oh, yeah. I've got a new name. Yeah. The way the way I think about it is, there was a time where my addictive behaviors were were the biggest things in my life. And then now, they're probably the same size as they were, you know, met you at 99, which really began my process of moving away from those things. They're probably the same size, but my life has gotten so much bigger Yep. Than my addiction. And that's so beautiful in the paradigm of recovery.

It's it's the little bitty self, the baby self is now big, big fat self. Yeah. Not an egotistical self. No. It's like big fat from the standpoint like, you know, fat was a compliment. That was like you mean you got a lot of food and you got a lot of places to get it. In other words, you've got a storehouse of self and it it's you got enough to give away. Yeah. And and and it's It's not a starvation diet. It's the it's the I I continue to grow because I accept that I'm a work in progress. Yeah. Right? Because I'm gonna be even more of myself to share and give and and partake and enjoy twenty years from now than I am now. You know, and and as we close,

the book and, to talk about the the way to stay full. The daily practices of staying full. And you said the word return, and that speaks to the deal. We return to how we were created and we start growing up into who we're created to be. And return requires that we do, when we return, it means we know how to replenish daily, restore daily, experience redemption daily, recreation daily. And in the book, we address about, you know, eight or nine, ten things that we need to be conscious of experiencing daily. And there's, like, experts on all these things. Right? But we just kinda point to, like Yeah. Like, prayer daily. Right? Prayer and meditation daily is a a practice that a recovery person has to use in order to find freedom in addiction. Staying in communion with yourself

and God. Spiritual readings. Conversation. Right. It's another one. Uh-huh. Like, on purpose, picking up books that illuminate, enlighten, encourage, and refresh. Yes. Right? The And and it's and it's the and it's the contemplative orientation related to them, which means that well, we we go to journaling next, but those spiritual readings and those prayers like, Mary Ann Diamond, one of the first per people to talk about neuroplasticity. Yeah. I mean, when you sit down with a spiritual reading, prayer, journaling, your hands writing, your brain connected, your heart being expressed The whole human experience. You're having an organismic experience. Yeah. Another daily practice is is vulnerability. Yeah. Right? Do an intimate relationship with trustworthy people. Like sharing your heart and receiving their heart Yes. In the process. You've got to spend some time every day

talking about the experience of your inner self. Otherwise, you are gonna become isolated. Yeah. One and then the next practice is rigorous honesty. Yeah. Which is, that's a hard one. Yeah. Am I telling the truth? Am I open? Am I willing? Yeah. And I and I wanna take feedback about how dishonest with myself I am. Yeah. Yeah. Which which is which is one more proof. It's like who do I have in my world to say, you you got a horse's tail, you know, sticking out your behind. I mean, it's like who's gonna tell me what I cannot see about myself? Yeah. And then the next daily practice is maintaining a clean slate of forgiveness. Like keeping a short list. That's huge. When I when I break relationship, do I own it and say I'm sorry? Not I'm sorry, but, like, I'm sorry.

Yeah. And does my hurt become resentment? Does my loneliness become apathy? Am am I attending to myself? And in in the tenth step in AA, tenth of the 12 steps, and what we're talking about here is is keeping a short list, staying conscious of your mistakes, and go go deal with them. Yeah. Just keep up with in fact, yesterday, this guy sent me this this funny, hilarious, pretty crude, you know, like, video meme TikTok thing. It's hilarious like a a play on words. And I didn't respond to him for, like, five hours because I hadn't I hadn't seen it. And then I get a text after he sent it and said, man, I won't tell you. I'm so sorry I said that if I've offended you. He was like, like, I haven't seen it yet. I'm working. I watched it. It's like, woah. You know? I don't live with my phone. Yeah. But I but I I I texted back and said, hey. It it's okay. It was really funny. He was like, okay. I can sleep now. But what he was saying was, hey, I that was crude, and if you're offended, I get it. I'm sorry if I did. Maybe there's codependency in it. Yeah. But at the same time he was saying, I'm sensitive to my conscience. I love you and never want to put you in a position by being offended or me hurting you. Relationship more than I do. Yeah. And he was he even said, I can sleep now. God lives in another state. And the next practice Great guy. Yeah. The next practice is caring for one's own emotional Oh, by the way, he almost made a thought I was like a little like some kind of prig too, I guess. Anyway, never mind. Okay. The next practice I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. No. The next practice is caring for one's own emotional, spiritual, and and physical health. Like, the self care, which self care has become its own idolatrous addiction. Oh, man. See, that's why, you know, it's head I'm glad you're talking about that because we're not talking about that. Right? Yeah. We're not talking about make sure you never have to deal with anything. Indulgence to have to deal with things. But we do have to take care of ourselves emotionally, physically, and spiritually

so that we can do the next thing. Like, a little bit of exercise, like, a decent diet, like, good sleep, like prayer, meditation. Being responsible for my own being is important so that I can serve others. Right? We need Which is the next practice. Like serving others is so important. Yes. This this guy, who came in, he's he's young, he's 30, overwhelmed with work, very successful. But he he's like, he's he's running dry. He's like, I don't know how to do this. And and I said two things. Number one, do you exercise? And I gave it up. I had to quit because, you know, my son this. I said, do you have any time that you do spiritual reading, spiritual time? He goes, no, because I blah blah blah. I said, okay. One hour a day. All human beings require an hour a day. You do thirty minutes of spiritual time. You do thirty minutes of exercise. You got to because it's because if you exercise, you you like cleaning yourself out, so to speak. And if you if you through the spiritual reading, you're taking something in. And then the last practice of of daily living and recovery is gratitude.

Amen. Is is celebrating, being thankful, offering gratitude to God and others, like, just being available to say thank you, well done. Yeah. Anne Voskamp says that, the miracle, is preceded by gratitude. Gratitude opens us up to experiencing the miracle. And gratitude isn't Pollyanna. Gratitude is, honestly, the beauty of remembering where I was, what happened to where I am now. Yeah. Do you know? Because, and then looking around our world and seeing what we're getting to do, which pushes us to make sure we take care of ourselves so that we have it to give it. Get to do it tomorrow. Yes. So we need to fill up at the well so we can go out and pour out to people we recognize like us. Yeah. I'm gonna read through those again because

prayer, spiritual reading, journaling, vulnerability, rigorous honesty, maintaining a clean slate of forgiveness, caring for one's own emotional, spiritual, and physical health, serving others in gratitude. Those are the daily practice of what it means to walk the road of recovery, the path of freedom. Yeah. And and and we close the book, with the the disciples were arguing about the latter. You know, who's the greatest among us, which, you know, I get that because the way society works, that's so common. Right? It was old and it's new and it's still here. Who's the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus brought a child who could stand with him and he said and this this child, he said, unless you change, which we can't do, we have to admit our need for change. We can't change ourselves, but we can return to how we're made. That's the change. Unless you change and become like one of these, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. You cannot grasp what this whole thing you cannot get on the path. You cannot have the life that you're really looking for. So, I mean, this is an amazing thing. Addiction can end up being a gift that leaves us with a limp that returns us to who we're made to be, our true name. And it the beauty of, was it, Genesis 32, the story of Jacob we talk about in the book? Jacob got a limp, and he had it the rest of his life. But that limp came from wrestling with a a man, wrestling with god to find the life he was really looking for that he tried to do through his own willpower and smarts, but finally came to he had that life through surrender. And he said his name was changed from Jacob, which means to deceive, addicted, to Israel, which means to struggle well, but to struggle with God and live. So we can close with that we struggle to return to how we're created unless you change and become like one of these, you go back to how you're made, and then learn how to grow up as an asker, a seeker, and a knocker.

And keeping that childlike openness of gratitude and wonder and awe all along the way. Yeah. Like Sonya and those caterpillars end up teaching me a ton about addiction. Thanks, Chip. God bless you, Stephen. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.