Enneagram - Part 1

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Thanks for listening to the Live Fully podcast from Sage Hill. This is Stephen James, the executive director, and I'm joined today by Jill Gulliforn, who is one of our therapists here, and a good friend. And she has taught me a lot over the last few years about what it means to, live with wisdom and compassion and courage and resiliency. And she's taught me a little bit about the Enneagram, which, is not as hot as it was a few months ago, but in true sage old fashion, we are slow to the party. So thanks for listening, and this is one of a three part series that Jill and I put together to help you better understand what is the Enneagram, how it can be useful for you, and what are its limitations in helping you be the best version of yourself. Hey, Jill.

Hi, Stephen. How you doing? I'm doing well. I'm glad to be with you. I'm well, we were gonna be together in person, and then I forgot my stuff. I forgot all my fancy microphones. So we called it audible, and now we're doing it on Zoom. Yes. We are. It feels very twenty twenty. Oh, we're so hip. Don't say I think you gotta knock on wood. You can't say 2020 because something bad's gonna happen if you say 2020. Well, that's rough year. Just feels yeah. It feels like It winging it and and changing plans feels like this year. Yeah. Which I don't know what the big deal is because that's how I've lived my life my entire life. Yeah. But I understand the rest of the world is that might be new for other people.

Yeah. I hear you. I I do alright in a crisis. Yeah. It's the same people that are having trouble now. Yeah. Us us crazy folk are we're like, oh, welcome to our party. This is what they always like. Feels like home. Yeah. Well, so thank you so much for wanting to do this with me. And, as I said kind of in the intro, we're gonna do a three part, like, podcast series on on the Enneagram. And kind of that subtitle theme is you're more than a number. Right? And so I like that. Yeah. Good. And so this first one is kind of, like, what is the Enneagram? Right? And I know there are people who think they know, and there's probably some people who really do know. And then there's some people in the middle who, like, heard about it at a dinner party. And then there's people going, like, is it, like, a pentagram? Like, are they talking about Satan stuff now? Yep. Right? And the symbol kinda looks like a pentagram. So we need to work on some branding for the enneagram people.

Scary. It looks real scary. So, you know, you've been a good tutor of mine in this, and you've put up with, my resistance and my bigness and my, you've been very gentle with me in it. And, and, you've tolerated my ateness for the Enneagram fans out there. So, one, you're you're the first person I really listened to about it, because you you you hold it. I heard about it for me, like, probably ten or twelve years ago for the first time. And so I remember reading a book or just one book about it. This is before podcast, so I didn't listen to podcast about it. But I, and so I thought I knew what it was, and then it became cool again a couple years ago, and it turned into the the, I don't know, the fad. I started talking to you about it, and you were really helpful with me. And so I thought, man, if we're gonna help other people, I need to have you talk about it. So if we started with, like, what is it Yeah. And who you are and how you came to it, I think, would be what I would wanna talk about

in the first. Yeah. That's that is such a good question, and thank you. I'm really honored that you would say that. I the way I describe the Enneagram, and I learned this from my teacher, Suzanne Stabile. I'll tell you more about her in a minute, but, she calls it like an ancient wisdom tool, and I love that, because that's what it feels like to me. It feels like an ancient wisdom tool, and it can also be called, like, a personality typing tool or personality inventory or something like that that feels more today, more like businessy or something. And if that feels helpful to you, use that. But I think at its core, it's like an ancient wisdom tool. Mhmm. I think there's a huge difference between wisdom and personality typing, actually.

I like that resonates with me. It resonates with me because it's bigger than it goes to your point of, like, you're more than a number. Right? If this is about wisdom, you're so more than a number. This is about, transformation. This is about growth. So that's what I would say. It's a tool used for self awareness. It's used for compassion. It's used for transformation and growth, spiritual growth, personal growth, but but compassion, I think, is at the core of it. It's so more about that. Well, I think it's why when I your resistance around the Enneagram didn't freak me out because I hear it all the time. I I hear it all the time. It's people have experienced the Enneagram used in a shaming and reductionary

way. Like, they So so this is gonna get into when we talk about the Enneagram numbers maybe later. So when you say that I'm like, you're not that wasn't a unique response, I like that, and I don't like that at the same time. Well, let me say, your particular brand of resistance is unique to you. Because you're gonna be, like, big and out there with it. Some people are gonna be like, mhmm. Mhmm. And then secretly go, I hate the Enneagram. You know? Yeah. I don't hate it. Yeah. Or they people have a lot people can have a lot of strong feelings about that, and I get that. You know? Yeah. Brene Brown and her research has found that being labeled is one of is like a big shame category for people. And people who've experienced this as a label or they've experienced being shamed and reduced around it don't like it. And so that's why you we focus on the compassion component of it because that's really different. Well, that's really interesting because if

if somebody labels me, I don't like it. But but a bunch of psychology research says if I can label things for myself, it reduces anxiety, it reduces shame. Right? That's right. And so what one of the coolest things about the integrand when it's used properly, it's self labeling. That's right. Other? Okay. That is so how it's supposed to be. You know? And my teacher, Suzanne, talks about that a lot. Like, we're our our work is not to go around and label other people. Really, the work is to spend a lifetime looking at our own stuff and staying on our own side of the street, and it becomes a tool for compassion and usually self compassion first. We can't extend the compassion to others until we can really wrestle with who we are and and our blind spots and our struggles and our gifts, and then it it kind of goes out. So I It's a healthy it's a healthy shame tool is what it is. Oh, I like that. The Enneagram. Yeah. A healthy shame tool. It is. Yeah. It it feels like that to me. Yeah. Yeah.

K. So Suzanne's your teacher. Mhmm. So she's your guru. She's my guru. She's a good one too. I I did this thing and it was just on a whim. And, honestly, I don't know if you guy if you and I would be sitting here today having this conversation if if I don't think I would have started going back to grad school and, and being a therapist and entering the second career had I not done this program with her. I I did it on a whim. My friend Kenny was doing this apprentice program with her for three years, and I was in I think I was in my late I have been, like, 39, 40, and my kids were getting older. And I was like, I I love learning. I remember I used to do that. That sounds really fun. I think I'll go do this. And I did it. I and so I enrolled in this program to study with her for three years with Suzanne, and, the history part is I had met her in an event. We had done an event together a few years prior and in Florida with Ian Cron and Suzanne who both wrote The Road Back to You, which is this big Enneagram book. And I had known about the Enneagram for a long time, but hearing her teach was really different because she did exactly what I'm describing. She was not about the label. She went deep, and she went deep right away. And she started exposing, blind spots, and she started talking about this as a tool of compassion and self transformation, and I was like, what is going on? I felt so many feelings as she was talking, and, so when she had this apprentice program, I was like, cool. That sounds fun. And I had no intention of doing anything but just doing it for the joy of of the process. And then about midway through, I was like, something more is happening here. This is I I might wanna teach this and and give this away, and I might wanna go back to school. And, so it was a really transformational

experience for me. Have you decided yet? Like, I might wanna teach this and I might wanna give this away? Have you made a decision yet? I have. I've been doing it. Yeah. But there were people that went into it and they were like, I'm going in this to learn to be a teacher and to do this, and and I did not. That came later. I think I just went in for myself. I think I think for a lot of people, that's the best way to become a teacher or something. Right? It's like to get it for yourself first Yes. Not to get it so that you can be somebody to give it away. But, like Absolutely. It happened organically. I just started teaching classes at my church for free, and then I led groups in my house for free just because it was, like, something I loved, and I wanted to share it. That's that's how it started.

That's cool. That's cool. So that was that was several years ago now because you just dated yourself. So that was that was several years ago now. That was, like, I yeah. That was probably, like, five years ago that I that I I guess that I did that. And then, and Suzanne learned from Richard Rohr, and that was her teacher. And then Richard Rohr learned from these Jesuit priests in, in the nineteen seventies who were taught by Naranjo, who was this Chilean psychiatrist. And and then it that's kinda where the lineage comes from. It came it became popular in America with the Catholics, like, in the nineteen seventies, and the evangelical church is starting to really tune into it today. So it's an ancient wisdom tool Mhmm. That is sounds like it's taught in an oral tradition that Yes. Like, that's passed down, which is the oldest way of teaching. Yes. Right? Is is relational and and oral and, and so and it's Chilean? A Chilean psychotherapist from the seventies who were strung out on coke came up with this thing. I mean, it was before him,

but he's kind of the like, they found evidence of it in all these different, religious traditions. They found evidence of it in, some ancient, like, mystical, Jewish traditions, like in the Kabbalists, and they found it in, like, Sufis. They found it in early church, like the desert mothers and fathers. So and and Susan taught me that people would only like, the mentor would teach the person their number. It's like Star Wars. Yeah. Jedi Knights and Star Wars. See, it's even in Star Wars. This is great. See, it's So you should have thought about Star Wars. You're coming up with your own Enneagram branding, like Star Wars and Shame. Yeah. Well, yeah. So what you just said, it is this has been pieces of, like, wisdom traditions, like, all over the place. Yeah. Right? And so, it's coming into our culture again now. Right? And but it's it's not new and it's not faddish. It's kind of like old old fashioned. Even older than old fashioned. Yeah. Very old. Yeah. And it'll still be here when this fad is gone too. Yeah. It's just for the people that wanna go deep, it'll be there. Yeah. That's cool. Okay. So it's old and then the psychotherapist found it and kinda probably made it a little more clear for his time, I would imagine. Mhmm. Gave it to father Richard. Father Richard then gave it to other people, brought it to United States. Yep. And and then you're in that lineage Yes. Of things. Yeah. That's cool. I like to think I'm in the Richard Rohr lineage. That feels good. Well, he might take you. I don't know. He's I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. To him, it all belongs. Everyone's in his lineage. Right? That's right. That's right. Like about him. So that's a big picture. If we start getting practical about what it is Mhmm. Right, what is it? Yeah. So

really practical really practically what it is is it's nine ways of seeing and being in the world. That's it. And, you know, the Enneagram, the word comes from, Greek. So enia means nine, and grandma means something drawn or written. So it just means nine wait. Nine things that are drawn or written. So if you see the symbol, you'll see this, like, circle that you said looks kinda freaky, looks kinda cultish. But, really, all it is is nine points. It's nine nine Huge branding problem. It's a total of all in the world. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. So nine ways of of seeing and being. Nine ways of knowing. Yep. Yep. Nine ways of moving through the world. Yeah. And, people get real caught up on type types. Mhmm. Right? Like, what their type is or what your type is or what your number is. And that's what they're referring to. Right? Those nine numbers. Okay. That's right. And and the teasing from the Enneagram is that everyone would fall into one of those nine numbers.

Some people find that really comforting. Some time some people find that really infuriating. Do you know anybody who's found that infuriating? I'm not saying a word. Yeah. Yeah. I think the resistance find that infuriating. Yeah. And the more resistant I became, the more I looked like one of the numbers. Yeah. Some people are like, phew. And just like a bunch of other people. And so, you know, within that, it's so nuanced. Like, within that, there's room and space. Right? Like, you're an eight, but you're not like any other eight. And yet, there are also things that you would have in common with other eights that are universal. There are things that are gonna be really different. So there's just some core universal things, I think, that that unite the types. And then within that, there's tons of freedom and space and and to be unique in all of that. Yeah. That's

not how a lot of people experienced it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So and you talked before. So that's we just did a little bit for, like, people who don't know what it is. Right? And you would so but you've talked before with me. This is for maybe some people who know what it is about these kinda, like, three zones, which I thought was fascinating of of, like, the head, the heart, the gut, and then some of these number that started really making sense to me of, like, oh, like, oh, you're talking to somebody. I just saw you talk to somebody. Yeah. Who did you just wave off? No. I, our, the great guy from Ace Exterminating is in here. Oh, that's awesome. That's great. Good job. That's good. So

Pivot times. Is he wearing a mask? Is he masked up? Yep. Good. Absolutely. Good. Yeah. So I think that's super helpful for me. Yes. It was really helpful for me of going instead of having to learn all these nine types and how to keep all that straight, it's like there's this bigger picture even behind that. Could you talk about that for a second? Absolutely. And, you know, I'm I'm aware that, like, when I teach, we can really get in the weeds of this here. So, like, if this doesn't make sense to you and the Enneagram is new to you, just know, like, I I spent many years studying this. So, like, if you're like, what's a what's a stance? What's a triad? It's okay. There's time I'll help interpret. I'll help interpret. To figure that out. Basically, the nine numbers are grouped into these two categories. So there's, like, the triads. And, basically, they're operating under this assumption that everyone has these three centers of intelligence. And this is not just Enneagram teaching, this is everywhere. Right? So there's three centers of intelligence, thinking, feeling, and doing. And everybody has them, and no matter what country you're from, no matter what, your your background is, we use thinking, feeling, and doing. Yeah. And so in the Enneagram, what they teach is that the triads are so there's three numbers grouped together, and these are grouped around which of those centers of intelligence is dominant for you. Like, what you prefer, what you like to use the most. And, so the, eights, nines, and ones are gonna be grouped around, the center of intelligence that's, doing. K. So they're gonna be doing dominant. So I'm thinking off the top of my head, so I'm trying to make sure I have this correct. Yeah. Don't get it wrong, Jill, because Yeah. We'll get, like, emails and things from from, like, Enneagram fundamentalists.

The Enneagram police are gonna come and get me. The Enneagram fundamentalists are gonna get you, and you'll be excommunicated. And so then the twos, threes, and fours are grouped around, their triad is gonna be the feeling. So they're gonna prefer the center of intelligence of feeling. And taking the world through feeling is kinda how I would Oh, love a good moody four. That would be moody four. Oh, wow. Taking the world through your heart, you know? Yeah. And then five sixes and sevens are going to, take in the world through thinking. And so at some a really clear and concise way to say this is, like, eights, nines, and ones tend to ask when presented with a situation, what am I gonna do? And twos, threes, and fours tend to say, what do I feel? And five sixes and sevens tend to say, what do I think about that?

That's good. So one's not better than a nine. It's not. Right. It's really not. And so the whole goal of this Enneagram work is to see what your preference is, and we we haven't gotten a stance since we'll get to that. That's grouped around what you repress. And, you know, I usually teach that to people first because people tend to know themselves more about what they struggle with and what they do really well. So, stances are like stances, which is the other way of grouping the numbers, not trying to get too heady here, but that's We got triads. Okay. Triads. Feeling, doing. Thinking, feeling, and doing, and that's the grouping I just told you. So you can sometimes people come to the Enneagram that way. That makes sense to them, and it helps them narrow down their number. And then, another way to come to it that I usually first now, and Suzanne has, does this as well, she starts with stances now, is this is the center of intelligence that you repress. So of those three, we tend to like one, and then we like the another one second, and then there's one that we tend to discount. Does that make sense if we have, like, a split of three?

So you said a seven likes to think? I'm so confused now. Okay. Okay. Alright. So so put the so in those same groups, are the same stances? So stances are a little different. Am I getting too am I getting too ahead of it here? Okay. We're talking to people who have just learned about it and people who know a lot about it. So Yeah. For some of the people, we're like they're like, what is she talking about? Yeah. But I'm I'm gonna kinda be that person too at this moment. And Sure. And I think you're doing fine. Okay. So I got the triads. They got the triads, and that's a group thing. We initiate we initiate with thinking. We initiate with feeling. We initiate with doing. Yep. Okay. Great way to put it. And then we have there and as psychotherapist, you would not agree, there's a lot of ourselves we repress in order to make ourselves acceptable in the world. Right? That's right. And the Enneagram groups those two. That's exactly right. But it's in different groups than the triads. That's exactly right. K. Do you see why it starts to sound a little sketchy?

Yes. And it's why, like, it's why, honestly, it took three years for us to study this stuff, is because, you know, you just start, it it's so deep. You know, it's like Yeah. Trippy. Right? You can go really deep in this stuff. And it's really nuanced and there's lots of associations and and you can go real deep in it or you cannot. I was teaching a workshop today, and this group has been together for three years. And I brought up something that we I taught three years ago Mhmm. And I taught last year, and I showed it to them today, and it was like they saw it for the first time. Yeah. Right? But it meant a whole lot more to they actually could take it in in a way now that they couldn't take in before. Right? And so I totally get what you're talking about. Yep. And as an eight with the seven lane. Right? Mhmm. I'm going, hold on. If it's this complicated Mhmm. Like, it feels a little cultish. Like, if I've gotta learn all these rules and structures to make sense of it, it starts to feel, like, really confining and rigid to me. Right? So how is it not that? And and I do want you to tell us the stances. But, like, how is it not that? That's such a good question.

I think I guess because, you know, it's hard to it's hard to, take myself out of the way I learned it. Yeah. So the way I learned it was so slow, and it was so invitational, and it was so, like, hey, do you wanna open this other door? Yeah. You know? And it was kinda like, yeah, I do. That sounds interesting. That's how you taught me too. It is so fun that way. And so, I always tell people when I'm teaching, you know, there are tons of amazing and healthy people that have lived on this earth that never knew the Enneagram. Okay. Will you say that again? Yeah. There are just tons of amazing and healthy people that have lived on this earth that never knew the Enneagram.

It's amazing. You're a heretic. I love it. So it's it doesn't feel rigid to me. It feels like if you're interested in this, there's more. If you're not, it's okay. Yeah. There's other Oh, I love that. I love that. Thank you. No. So there's more. It's like therapy process that some people want to go real deep in the process. Some people go, that was enough. Thank you very much. And it's okay. Good. Okay. So do stances. Yeah. Real quick. Go ahead and pull it up. Yeah. And if you want more investigating in this, there's more. But, like, if this overwhelms you, don't worry. There's there's enough in just the numbers. Yeah. So stances are are groupings by which center of intelligence you repress. Okay. So,

and that's So, like, defensive these are, like, defensive stances, defensive postures. I I would say more it's like, you know, like, the way I would imagine it in in overlapping with therapy and and with spiritual growth are, like, these are the things this is the way we learn to survive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is the this is the thing that we realized wasn't important, or this is the thing we'd kinda discounted so that we could make our way through our lives. And, and so for, so '3 sevens and eights are in the aggressive stance. You think? And they have typically learned to discount feelings. Oh, gosh. Yes. I did. Yeah. And so they like to I like doubled up there. So as a seven eight or eight seven wing we'll we'll talk about wings in our next podcast, but, like, as an eight seven, like, I I like doubly repressed feelings.

You just got a little extra dose of aggressive. I like to fight and I like to party. That's Yeah. Kind of me. Yeah. Yep. There's a lot of energy and intensity there. You think? Yeah. Oh, look at that. Okay. So so the aggressive stance represses feelings. And so they're gonna have different things that are dominant because they're different numbers. Right? So we're not worried about that. We're kinda more worried about these guys together all repress feeling. And then, I'm I'm thinking off the top of my head here. Okay. Force fives and nines, they're in the withdrawing stance, and these guys tend to repress doing. So depending on their number, they're gonna prefer thinking and feeling, feeling and thinking, and doing is gonna be harder for them. Okay. And then ones, twos, and sixes are in the dependent stance, and these guys are going to repress thinking. So they're gonna feel and do and feel and do and sometimes not think about it.

That's so so if somebody recognizes themselves as feeling and doing Mhmm. They're they might identify as a one, two, or six. Mhmm. They might. Yep. And, again, this is, like, super surface. Like, if I'm doing stances with the organization, I'll spend a whole day with them on it, and we'll go into detail, and we'll go into the detail of what every number looks like in that stance, and the nuances, and how it looks different. So this is just a super general overview. Super gen yeah. That's what we're doing. K. And then for our last little piece, right, because I don't I don't wanna overwhelm people, more people. Could you go through all nine types and give, like, a two sentence description of each type? Oh, lord. Just just kidding. I'm just kidding. Like, what so so tell me because our culture, our world wants it bite sized. Right? Yeah. And and the way I've, I've experienced this Enneagram tool with you so well, and I've miss I've experienced it so poorly with other people because of what I just described of, like, summarizing it, packaging it, making it online, filling the dot test. And this is your number, and you've done all the work you need to do. Can you say how like, talk about how that's not a helpful approach and how when I ask you that, I knew the look on your face was gonna be like, like, don't do that don't do that to me. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

this stuff is so nuanced and complicated and textured. And Suzanne talks about this all the time because she's she's getting people wanting her all the time to come in and do it quick. You know? And doesn't that sound, like, similar to your work? You know, it's like, can we just do this quick? Can we just do this work of transformation quick? Can we just unlearn these things I've been spending my whole life doing Yeah. In one afternoon? Yeah. People will say, how how long is this gonna take? How long is this gonna take? Right. When I was doing all therapy, they were like, just, you know, doing this as a therapist all day long. People would say, how many sessions is this gonna take? That's now my go to answer over time was, it's gonna take a lot longer than you wish and much shorter than you deserve.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good answer. Yeah. And so we're sitting in the both end of that. Right? Like, you have to do an introduction. Right? We have to figure out how to teach this in an introduction. And also, this is talking about, like like, the the human heart and the character of people and what makes us who we are and our our gifts, and our sort of struggles, and it's really it's really deep. It's really deep stuff. So I can give you the elevator pitch, but people will oftentimes it's I think it's why people don't see themselves in these numbers, because they're like, oh, I don't respond to that elevator pitch. Or or grab onto a number that is aspirational and they're shamed. Yep. Like, I really want to be that way as opposed to doing the hard work of self discovery. Yeah. Totally. I'm not gonna let you do the elevator pitch because I don't want Sage Hill to be responsible for per per per what's the word? Perpetuating Like, the misuse of such a wise tool. Right? Mhmm. But then it is wisdom. It does take time and does take work. Yes. Which means, like, us Americans suck at this. Like, we don't like time. Right. And we don't like that kind of work. Like, we like work that produces, not work that deepens. And so in true Satchel fashion, like, we're gonna, like, make people do their own work. But it kinda end this this version this section of our three podcast series. What what are some resources if somebody did want to you mentioned the book. Right? Susan's Suzanne's book. What are other, like, awesome resources that if someone's interested in moving into this or someone's been in it for a while Yep. Like, I I read the Richard Rohr book years ago. Right? That was my introduction to it. Yep. But what what are other places, that people can look into?

Yeah. Oh my goodness. There's so many. I'm like you. I like I like hearing Suzanne is a narrative teacher. Right? She she teaches orally and so I let her website, Suzanne Stabile, is lifeinthetrinityministry.com. And Again, another complicated URL. We so can help with this. Lifeinthetrinityministry.com.dotcom. Okay. If you just search Suzanne Stabile, it'll come up. How do you spell Stabile? S t a b I l e. And she has done these narrative teachings on each number, and you can download you can just get a a download of each one and go on her website and listen to her talking about the ones. Listen to her talking about the twos. I wanna say each one is, like, twenty to thirty minutes. That's great. And and she tells stories. I think people hear themselves in the stories of others. There are a ton of free podcasts that are great. Ian Cron's podcast Typology or Suzanne Stabile's podcast, the Enneagram Journey are really great. They they'll interview people that are different numbers. So if you have some instincts like, man, I'm not sure if I'm a three or seven or I'm not sure if I'm a one or five, I would go listen to some people being interviewed that say they're those numbers and have done work and see if it resonates with you. A lot of times people will will learn by hearing someone share their stories more than reading a set of facts.

So you're not a proponent of, like, the online parlor trick test. That's my judgment. I'm not You're not a proponent of the online test. I'm not. I don't think it works. I mean, I think I think you can use it as, like, this is gonna sound super, like, scientific, which I'm not. It's like a great place for, like, making a hypothesis. Right? Yeah. You can go take the ready on, it's r h e t I. If you wanna take any test, take that one. It's cheap. It's on Some really long URL. Enneagram Institute, which is Riso and Hudson's one. They've been around for a long time. They have a great book, Wisdom of the Enneagram, which is a just a classic. You can go on their website. You can take this test. I wanna say it's, like, $10, and it'll give you a hypothesis about the numbers you might be. And then from there, you can start exploring. But I just talked to too many people that have taken the test and they didn't get the right it it didn't get them right. And I think part of it is because the test presumes that we know ourselves. Yeah. And a lot of times, we really don't know ourselves. Mhmm. So

What's in there? God, it's so good. Yeah. Thank you, Jill. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. Alright. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.