Enneagram - Part 2

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Thanks for listening to the Live Fully podcast from Sage Hill. This is Stephen James, the executive director, and I'm joined today by Jill Gulliforn, who is one of our therapists here, and a good friend. And she has taught me a lot over the last few years about what it means to, live with wisdom and compassion and courage and resiliency. And she's taught me a little bit about the Enneagram, which, is not as hot as it was a few months ago, but in true sage old fashion, we are slow to the party. So thanks for listening, and this is one of a three part series that Jill and I put together to help you better understand what is the Enneagram, how it can be useful for you, and what are its limitations in helping you be the best version of yourself. Hey, Jill. Hey, Stephen. How you doing? Doing good. Good. Well, this is the second part of a three part podcast series you and I are doing on the Enneagram. Mhmm. But it's really like you're doing it, and I'm just kinda here playing dumb.

So You are so not playing dumb. I don't believe that for two seconds. Yeah. So if anybody missed the last one, go back and listen to it. But real quick, it was a broad overview of what the Enneagram is Mhmm. Where it comes from, your your history in it, your experience in it, and and some kind of some guidelines for people about how to begin to how to think about it or to really become more adept in the in the wisdom of the Enneagram as a wisdom tool. Yep. And so we're moving today into talking about specifically, like, what it's good for. Yeah. Right? Like and maybe even some little more technical things about how the numbers relate to each other a little a little more. But, Sure. You know, it's it's been super popular. Right? And there's a lot of people who who know about it. There's a lot of people who, are using it and have defined themselves by it, and it's been a real helpful tool for a lot of people. So why is it helpful? And then, like, what's it good for? Right? Becomes my question.

Why is it helpful is a great question. My teacher, Suzanne Stabile, always says it's helpful because it's true, and I love that. And and she's like, I've tried She's like, people want me to defend it. People want me to give them the evidence for it. And I'm just like, I don't know. It's just true. She's like, I've just never met anybody that didn't, like, take a look at it and go, yeah. This feels true. Chip has said that about the spiritual root system. Like, in the very beginning, he's you know, he would say, if it passes the uh-huh test, like, we go, uh-huh. That's right. Yep. Then if it's true, then it must be true. You know? And, like he said, we hold these truths to be self evident, which is, like, if that's enough to start a country, it's certainly enough, like, for spiritual growth work. Right? That there's some I love it. Ain't that great? He's he's so smart that way. And so it's, like, I think this is in line with that. It's, like, it it passes the Uh-huh test. Yeah. Yes.

And I think I think the other reason that I have found it helpful, and I've heard other people share that they have found it helpful, is that it's very nuanced and textured where there are other wisdom tools or personality typing tools that are helpful, right, and and can help us see facets of different things. But they tend to be focused on strengths, and yet so much of our life is where we struggle and fail. And the Enneagram acknowledges that where, you know, Myers Briggs doesn't, you know, a lot of these other things that are that people use and are helpful for some things, they don't cover this they don't have, like, a spiritual perspective on on the way we see. And and so I think that's what the Enneagram does. It's very to me, it it it intersects with my faith and with our strengths and our sin. You know?

And the spiritual perspective help me if this is right. For the Enneagram is that our our deficiencies, are as much of who we are as our giftedness. Yes. Like, our limb our limitations say, as much of our dignity as our gifts do. Right? And and that all that together and all of us together kinda make a whole. Absolutely. And that no one is the whole thing unto themselves. Right? That's a great way to put it. Yeah. That's that's it to me is one of the most invitational things about the Enneagram is that there's that even though there's numbers, there's not a ranking. It's it's a Yep. It's a how do I find myself and how do I learn to embrace my limitations Not as, even character defects, but as, like, oh, this is where I just am limited. Like, this is where I need help, and this is where I need others, and this is where I need to grow, and this is Absolutely.

And we can't kind of a joke. We can't, like, get rid of like, Suzanne always says our best thing is also our worst thing. Absolutely. And that's very much at the core of the Enneagram. It's like, you know, for one comes to me and is like, man, I really wish that I didn't have these voices that are telling me I need to always be doing better and better and better, you know. Yeah. And then, you know, when you're gosh. Don't you want a one doing things with excellence and, seeing the things that I don't see or or making, or reforming things in the world. You know, Richard Rohr is around seeks to tell you the way everything's not gonna work. How how everything can go bad.

Sometimes it's helpful. It's super helpful. Actually, like, it's super helpful to go. Your best thing is your worst thing. Right? Oh, gosh. Yeah. Like, I was working on something the other day and I I believe Heather may be a six. And I invited her. I said, hey. Can you tell me what everything that's wrong with this? And she's like, absolutely. And then she was so right, and I totally couldn't see it. Yep. You know? And it was so helpful. And then she went on, and I was like, okay. That part's not helpful. Stop. That's fine. Yeah. I would say I would also say the other is true. Like, our best thing is our worst thing, and our I would say our best things also come from the worst things. Right? Like, the worst experiences of our lives actually shape us more and define us more than the best experiences. Right? I think that's true. You know? And so there's some there's even wisdom in that too. K. So it's it's good to help us know kind of who we are. It's good to help us know who we're not. Yep. Right? Where we're limited. Okay. How would yeah. What else what else is it good for?

I think I mean, that's where we start. Right? But I think it is so helpful in extending compassion and grace to the people around us. You know, we don't even have to know their number. Right? I mean, it helps sometimes if they're like, this is my number and that can be helpful, but just walking around with this deep awareness, like what Enneagram work has done for me, I don't think about it all the time. I really don't. It's just kind of sunk down into this deep place where, like, I have this awareness that, like, of my strengths and my limitations. And that and the humility of sitting in that place is something that I'm constantly trying to stay in, and that helps me extend grace to other people. I don't expect them to not be limited. I don't expect them to not have strengths and weaknesses. I accept it. I can really accept that. And, and that it's just a compassionate view and and I think it really depersonalizes. Maybe it's the word I would use. It depersonalizes some of the, interpersonal conflict that we have. When you realize, like, that really is not about me. That is not this is this is about somebody's fear of, not being seen, or this is about somebody's fear of being controlled. This is about somebody's fear around this or their anger around this. Like, it it helps you not take things so personally.

So does it also then I would imagine it helps with self compassion. I think it has to help with that first. Okay. Say more about that. Yeah. I wanna hear more about that. I mean, I think it's why I really encourage people to spend time doing work in their own number before they start thinking about, who the people in their family are. Now can we do it perfectly? No. We can't. Like, I it's really difficult to hear that any of you are being taught and not think your mom and your your spouse and your friend and your boss and whatever. But the work is every time you you're most distracted to kinda bring it back to you and go, okay. What's in this for me? Because there's usually enough work there for a lifetime. And then once we can start having more compassion around, you know, the the shame of of the limitations of our own number, because I when I first heard my number, I felt a lot of shame. I felt a ton of shame. Oh, yeah. How should I? A ton. I felt exposed. Yeah. And I I've heard a lot of people say something similar, and it's interesting because it's always a different number, which lets me know it's not about a number. It's when people feel like they're exposed. You know, like in the garden and you're like, you saw me and then you wanna cover up. You hear someone talking about the deepest struggles of your heart and you feel ex I felt exposed. And so it was just coming to a place where I could, I I will just say now when I hear my number, I don't I don't feel that way anymore.

Well, it's I mean, as a therapist we've I've experienced this as a therapy patient, but also seen it in the face of people I've worked with. Right? Is is you say something that to you is so obvious and but to them, they've never seen it before. Yeah. And that sense of, like, I've been caught. Like, that Yes. Yeah. That that's So how does how do you go from that sense of toxic shame, right, to humility and self compassion? Right? That's a that's a big bridge to cross, it would seem. It took me a really long time. I mean, and it's taking me a long time. Like, it's a journey and I think that's why I love that it that Suzanne always talks about this as a spiritual journey. Because it's not a point in which you arrive. You don't arrive there. You don't, we're journeying. And and I would say it's come through, a lot of work. Right? I've done a lot of therapy and spiritual direction and groups and recovery, and I've been through a lot of failure and stuff. And, that has has changed me. And it's it's shaped my character and it's helped me accept my limitations. And like you said, just not not seeing them as as just a deficit, but seeing them as, like, seeing my limitations and freedom. Like, I can't do all these things.

No. I'm gonna ask you a question then. You don't have to answer it. You can, like, punt on the question. Okay? Uh-huh. But what is something but I won't edit out you punting if you punt it. Like Okay. Okay. What is something you love about you Mhmm. That's about Jill in relationship to your Enneagram number, your Enneagram type? That is something I love. I no. I really don't. I feel so glad to share this because I don't think I could have shared this when I first signed the Enneagram. I would have felt I would have felt shame about it. I I love being a six. I'm a six, and I love that common good is like a default for me. I really care about other people and, I care about the good of everyone. And I love that. And I think Yeah. It really helps in an individualistic society where a lot of people are like, it's just about me or it's just about my family. It's just about my kids. Like, I I can't think that way. I I think, like, how is this gonna affect somebody else? And, you know, the shadow side of that, the dark side of that is that can be codependent. But in a healthy way, if you, if you can do your work and stay in the health of it, it like can really make you, keep you humble and make you an empathetic, and compassionate person, and I think it's really helped with contentment. I I really can't feel really content, most of the time with my with my life.

You teaching me about the six type drive for common good has been in the last, probably, three years, one of the most helpful things for me to learn about my wife and about me to be, understanding about her motivations in life and our marriage and the burden she carries about, like, our children and about me and about, like, everybody but herself. Yep. Right? And and just what broad shoulders she has, in that way. You know? So, like, that help like, from a compassion standpoint as you're talking, I remember, oh, gosh. Remember the first time you said that, like, common good? I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, it all clicked. And it's like, I wish I would've done that twenty years ago. Like, that would've helped me. You know? And it can be such a beautiful

you know, I've experienced it in both ways. Right? I've experienced it. It can become distorted and unhealthy. But in a healthy place, it's one of the things I like most about being six. That's awesome. Mhmm. That's great. And and the so I heard you say a couple of things that the Enneagram gave you some categories and language. You didn't say this. I'm summarizing this. Mhmm. Some categories and language and some, like, like, thinking about, like, football field, like, lines to they kinda organize the play with. Right? But I also heard you use recovery language and therapy language, like, all these other things kind of in in that, helped you also. Like, the Enneagram of itself didn't help you heal from toxic shame. Nope. Okay. Nope. Just one Yeah. One tool. One tool. And I I think we've talked about this before, but, you know, I think maturity is about integration in so many ways, and not this compartmentalization and fragmentation and all that stuff, and so I'm really interested right now in how the Enneagram integrates with lots of other things. Yeah. That's what interests me. How it overlaps

with all these other things. It started as an idea for you. And then it over time, as you've practiced it and known it and have done this other healing work and growth work in your life, it's settled into a deeper place in you that it's not it's not the filter you run everything through, but it's it's No. It it's a primary filter, maybe, for you. But it's also kind of an organizing way to organize things and hang ideas on and you know. Absolutely. And it's limited, you know. It it can only do some things. It can Yeah. You know, Suzanne always says, I love this too, she's like, the Enneagram can't do anything by itself. The Enneagram combined with these other things, with spiritual work or in community or, in recovery, she's done a lot of work with the Enneagram in in twelve step recovery, And, she's also used the Enneagram in hospitals, like, with people, with people on on the front lines, kind of like how this gonna help you in your work with sitting people with people in their grief and the differences of what they might need, and so it's it's helpful in my in in, you know, for use with other things. But just, Donna, it's just it's just like a set of facts.

Thinking about my own growth, you say that, of, like, other things. There was a season in my life where I was a terrible marriage counselor, like, early in my practice, and I committed myself to go spend about three or four years just learning about marriage and family and and the tools and tricks, and I poured myself into that. And there was a couple of teachers that I, like, really jumped on, you know, and probably hurt some people with their teachings. Right? Like, I like, as I was trying to get it for myself, you know, David Snark, being one of them, and differentiation and that kind of stuff was a, really helpful idea for me in working with couples. It is so in me now. I never think about it. But it certainly is a category that I when I'm sitting with a couple, I'm thinking in this continuum of differentiation and and fusion and what does that mean and how does attachment play into that and Mhmm. You know, not play into that. Right? I've I've got more things to hang it on now than I did when I was just learning it. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. It's so freeing to think about it like that. You know, it's just it it's yeah. It's way more freeing than rigid, like, we in the first episode when you can look at it like that. So the Enneagram is not gonna fix my kids. Nope. Not gonna fix my spouse. It's not gonna fix my addiction. So sorry. Not oh, gosh. Yeah. You just have to go to meetings. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it doesn't. It's just it's a layer of of wisdom, and it's it's some wisdom, perspective, and and a tool for spiritual transformation that you can use in conjunction with these other things. That's great. Thanks, Jill. Absolutely. It's so good. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.