Enneagram - Part 3

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Thanks for listening to the Live Fully podcast from Sage Hill. This is Stephen James, the executive director, and I'm joined today by Jill Gulliforn, who is one of our therapists here, and a good friend. And she has taught me a lot over the last few years about what it means to, live with wisdom and compassion and courage and resiliency. And she's taught me a little bit about the Enneagram, which, is not as hot as it was a few months ago, but in true sage old fashion, we are slow to the party. So thanks for listening, and this is one of a three part series that Jill and I put together to help you better understand what is the Enneagram, how it can be useful for you, and what are its limitations in helping you be the best version of yourself. Hey, Jill.

Hey, Stephen. Welcome back to the Thank you. Podcast with Sejal. Awesome. So so so cheesy. So this is the last segment and kind of, like, three part mini series we're doing on the Enneagram. Mhmm. And so if someone's just picking it up here, like, enjoy, but you might wanna go back and kinda hear where we've been to. Our first one was kind of this picture, my high level, like, what is the Enneagram, kinda structurally, how does it work, and how does it help us think about the human problem, you know, and the path to wholeness and integration. And our second one, we talked about what is it good for. Right? Mhmm. And and you said, very wisely, you said your teacher, Suzanne, said, it's not good for anything by itself, but it's it's really good with other things and adds to things and, helps other things. I think the best things in life are that way. Right? Like, that's And it helps with compassion and self compassion and understanding and all those things, and that's good. And it's not good for some things. Mhmm. Right? And so today, I want us to spend a little bit of time talking about what it's not good for. Yep. And how you and your experience over the last several years, both as an Enneagram teacher, an Enneagram student and teacher, and now as a practicing therapist, how have you seen it misused, and how have you, seen it overused in some ways, maybe? Mhmm. So what's it not good for?

Well, I think you said in the first episode, something like you're more than a number. And I think that's the biggest way that I see this misused is that it becomes this reductionary, tool or this reductionary, like, hammer instead of this expansive, freeing, like, compassionate thing. And so if it's about if it ever gets about reducing yourself or someone else to this number, this narrow thing, I say don't ever use it again. Don't don't use it. Don't look it's just not gonna be helpful. It's gonna become a tool of shame. Yeah. It is. You know, like in, where Doug has to wear the cone of shame, it's like that is what the Enneagram will feel like. It will feel like a cone of shame hanging around your neck, and it's no good. It's just not good. K.

So that's that's my number. Fundamentalism is bad even in Enneagram. Even in Enneagram, it's bad. It doesn't work. It just is shameful. You know, we talked about this, Brene Brown, in her 12 categories of shame, she's done all this research being labeled one of them. And so when people feel labeled by the Enneagram, they feel shame. And we know that, you know, no growth and transformation can happen in that sort of toxic shame place. So then it just becomes it's just not helpful at all. So it's not a weapon. It's not a weapon to wield against yourself or anyone else. What do you think about us as people when we find something powerful? Mhmm. Right? Like, whether if people do this with, you know, Chip Dodd's spiritual root system, the eight feelings, they turn those into, like, weapons and not tools. Right? They start telling other people, and they start limiting every human experience. Like, that's gotta be categorized in these eight feelings. You know? And it's a and what he created with that is so expansive and powerful and permission giving and Yeah. Freeing. Right? And I've seen people do the same thing with Enneagram. So what do you think it is about the our our humanity or who we are as humans that when we find something powerful, we tend to, use it as a weapon.

I mean, I can only speak to my own experience. I wish I didn't relate to it, but I've done this. I've done it before. So I I had it and have empathy for it. It's like, for me, it's usually about fear and control. And it's it's like, it's very, it's very complicated to deal with the nuance of this and the nuance of people. There's risk. There's, you have to accept things. You have to accept yourself. You have to move forward with this, like, freedom and empathy and all this stuff. And and if you can just reduce people, it feels like, okay. I can just control it. And then I can kinda write them off. You know? David Dark says that if we can, like, reduce things and put a label on them, then we don't have to deal with them. And so I think there's some of that. Like, if we can if I can just say, ugh, you're a three and I don't like threes, then I don't have to deal with you. I don't have to engage all these messy feelings. And I it's about it's fear and control

to me. Okay. I don't know how Yeah. I don't know what you think about that. I don't know. I that's what I was asking you. Like, that question, I was, like, literally just thinking of that. And Yeah. As you're talking, I'm reflecting on it. I think it absolutely is about fear and about my need to not have fear. Yep. Right? And if I can control the world by labeling if I got taxonomy of things, right, if I can name everything and organize it, then I can control it. Mhmm. And then, therefore, I'm not gonna be surprised or hurt or abandoned or betrayed or let down or humiliate. Like, nothing bad could ever happen to me again. And I think the most powerful things we we find, especially if they're deeply true spiritual things, end up being used that way. Mhmm. You know? And some people never outgrow it. I think we all if we find something new, we all kinda, like, jump into it maybe Yeah. And and use it that way. But some people never outgrow that and stay in kind of a dogmatism.

Yep. And Yeah. I don't know. It's kicking off the top of my head, but that's what came up me as I know that usually for me, it's about, yeah, it keeps me from being curious. It keeps me from having to engage. Mhmm. I feel like it's a protection thing. Like, oh, if I just label, I don't have to, yeah, I don't have to deal with it. This is probably about shame too then. Yep. It probably is. Yeah. It's fear and shame. Most of our problems go back to, like, fear and shame and being alone, you know, like, feeling feeling alone. So what what else is it not good for? I feel like it's really not good for excusing harmful behavior, your others. Oh, yeah. I do. I'm an eight. That's what I did. I'm a seven. Of course, I'm an alcoholic. I like to drink. Like that one.

It's not an excuse. It's not an excuse. I've experienced it this way in my life before. Oh, I just do this. I'm a whatever. And that is so hurtful and so not true. You know, you have choices and it's not a, there's health and unhealth in all these numbers. And so I don't think it's an excuse for anyone's inappropriate behavior. Like, impaired and redeemed or impaired and full living versions of of something. Yeah. Absolutely. So people so people use it as an excuse? So I could because I'm an asshole. I could tell just I'm an ape. Deal with it. Totally. Like, you're just Yeah. Have you not been doing that? You gotta do that. Some people really do that. Some people really like that. I think I found the Enneagram too late. I was already kinda out outgrew that part. Darn it. Yep. Yep. I've experienced that. I've experienced people summing me up. You know? Oh, you're just an eight. Yep. Right? You know? And and it's like, ouch. That's

really hurt. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So painful. I've had that too, and it's just like, no. You don't that that doesn't even begin to touch the the essence of a person, you know? So it doesn't define a person in their in their good. It also is an excuse for their harmful behavior. So that's another thing I would say it doesn't do is it's not None of my biggest regrets have have anything to do with my Enneagram type. Right. I mean, if I was doing my character defect list, there would be some things that look like eight. When I talked about behaviors of things I've done, it's like, that's got nothing to do with maybe getting into some fights in high school and college. Maybe. Yeah. But I think that was more about the pain. That was more about pain Yeah. And and un untutored grief and fear than it was about me being a challenger. Right? Or Yep. You know, sense of justice. It was just about, like, someone's gonna get someone's gonna get hit. Me and him. Right? You know? Yep. So that's good. That's helpful. Oh, wow. I just got a new insight. Thank you so much. I feel so enlightened right now. It's good. I don't even think I said anything that was related to what you said, but I'm so glad that it led you there.

That's how this stuff works. It's like being in therapy. Like, you go back and quote your therapist. You said this. It was so helpful. It's like, what did I say? You're thinking, I never said that. I know. Isn't that crazy? It's crazy. Wonderful. It's so wonderful. It's so humbling. Yeah. It is humbling. So it's it's what's what's else is it not good for? So it's not good for excuse making. It's not good for controlling people or controlling life. Yep. Is there anything else you can think of it's not good for? Yeah. I don't think it's helpful in dealing with any kind of pathology. Right? It's not they're just things that are like, the Enneagram only goes so far. I will never forget this. I was in I was in my Enneagram training in my apprentice group, and it was so wonderful. We got so close because there were about three of every number, and we met together for three years. And these people are incredible people. I mean, people from all walks of life, from education to, you know, chaplains to, like, people who are retired. Just, like, amazing. And, this woman was asking this really deep question that had to do with family systems and dynamics in her family and a lot of trauma and dysfunction. And Suzanne and her wisdom just said, just stopped and was like, I just don't think the Enneagram really has anything to say about any of this.

Oh, it's so wise. She's like, I can't wait to meet her one day. Yeah. She's just like, this is where the Enneagram can't go. This is this is family systems. This is trauma. This is therapy. This is not and there's no Enneagram answer for what you're asking me. So it doesn't it's not an answer for your trauma. It's not an answer for pathology or, you you know, sometimes people will see a person who appears have pathology in public and they're like, what's their Enneagram number? And I'm like, that doesn't have any that has no place here. Yeah. You know, it's just not helpful. That's super helpful to know. Because I can even imagine your friend in that workshop thinking, maybe I'm just not getting this. Maybe I should just try harder in this area on the Enneagram because it's gonna fix my trauma. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe if I just knew what number my dad was or,

you know, maybe if I knew what number this person was that really hurt me, I would understand, and then I would be safe or whatever. And it's like, no. It just doesn't it's not usually an answer for for that. And typically, when someone tells me, oh, there's a number that I really can't get along with, I'm kinda like, no. That's not true. There's there's a numb somebody probably really hurt you, or you have some trauma with someone who was this number, and now you're seeing everything through that lens. Because I I just think we can we can be with with any anyone. I have friends that are all the numbers, and I have people that have really hurt me that are similar numbers of people that I love, and that just so the Enneagram is just not helpful there, if that makes sense. That makes total sense to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, so as we're kinda, like, coming to the end, like, what have we not said in, like, our three conversations that you wish we would have said? I think I will say, like, this it's been so helpful for me. Yeah. This really has been such a helpful spiritual transformation tool for me. And if it feels like if your interest is piqued, if you're listening and you're kind of like, I wanna learn more about this or what is this and, I would encourage you to go to Suzanne Stabile's website, which we mentioned last time is Life in the Trinity Ministry or you can just Google Suzanne Stabile. You can look at her podcast or Ian Cron's podcast. There's tons of them out there And just kinda dive in and, know it's a journey. Like, you don't have to it's not a the the process of even figuring out what your number is is as important as getting to your number. Like, the journey is super important and even kind of ruling things out and going, oh, that's not me or that that doesn't sound like me or whatever. That's that's part of it. It's also really important and that's not wasted. And it it can be slow and that's okay and you can change your mind and that's okay. It took me a while to figure out what my number was. So it's a journey. You can you can go at your own pace. You can ease into it. You can you can go deep in the Enneagram or you can just learn a little bit, but I think it's really, really helpful.

I'll tell you, your gentleness with it and humility in it certainly has opened me up to learn more from it. So, yeah, I think if anybody will look Suzanne for that. She's she's a really good teacher, and and I've learned from I've learned that from her. Yeah. Which is good advice if we're looking for any wisdom in our life. Right? Like, if the person doesn't approach it with humility and grace and, their own story Yeah. They're probably not a helpful teacher. Yeah. Though they may have a lot of good answers. Yeah. Right? They may have yeah. I'm glad I came to it later in my life. I don't know that I would've I don't know what I would've done with it had I really come to this, like, in my twenties or something. I had to go through a lot to get to the place where it it hit it hit me in that spot. You know? Well, it's probably I mean, there's things probably we both learned in our twenties that we could all totally value again relearning. Twenties are awesome. I wish I could do my twenties forever.

Like Oh, I so do not. I like my forties. Oh, I I like I like who I am better at a 40, but the energy I had in my twenties, right, the, indomitable spirit. Now the self doubt, toxic shame, and hiding, and double life, like, all that stuff is insane. Right. But but I could go I could just say, I think I'm gonna start running again and go run six miles. Like, what's it a problem? Yes. Like, I'm never gonna run a mile and get in my life. That's torture. That's hell. But, Yeah. I hear you. Yeah. I thank you for your your humbleness in it. So it's good. Anything else we need to know? Like, so it's good. It's helpful. If you go in deep or going a little, like, it's a good thing. Get wise teaching around it. Anything else that would be helpful?

Nothing's coming nothing's coming to my head. Can you think of anything, Stephen, that I'm Uh-uh. That I'm missing? No. I just I think I think you've done a great job in our three conversations, giving people a framework to better understand and better approach this, as you call it, this wisdom tool Mhmm. And and how they can grow self compassion and other centered compassion by kinda learning that that I love what we said in our second conversation that limitations actually are as important as our gifts Yep. And and defining us and even, like, saying what's great about us. Right? That they're all the same thing. And so, yeah, it's I think it's I think it's a helpful tool. I I think it's, as we're talking and for me, you know, I'm very aware of how complimentary the spiritual root system and the Enneagram

are and kind of this wisdom path. You know? Crazy. That's a whole another podcast that we can do because I've been thinking about that a lot as I've been working at Sage Hill. It's like, okay, how do these things integrate? Yeah. And it it so does. It really does. Like, when you're talking about the centers of intelligence that are repressed and, you know, it's it's just really, really interesting and how feeling is is a, so a part of being human and Well, and for me, as a as a person who represses feelings, right, as an Enneagram type eight Yeah. Like, the road, like, learning about my feelings and being willing to be vulnerable and tolerate my feelings, like, opened a door for me in my own growth and my relational healing and my parenting in ways that if I would've just, been more challenging, wouldn't have. Right? Yes. You know? Yes. And my sensitivity, I think, is my greatest gift now. Like, I just I'm such a sensitive person. And, I think I rebelled against my sensitivity or denied it, lived in denial for so long. Yep. Right? So I can see how they fit really well together. And,

I also go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say that center of intelligence says you're pressed like what you're talking about. Like, the Enneagram teaching is that when we bring that one up, it is often the most purest it's it's the purest and the most beautiful and important work we do in the world is often related to the center of intelligence that we bring up. Yeah. And that's so I'm thinking like that. Story. Like in Enneagram four, once they realize feelings are just feelings and not the center of the world. And they It's like When fours start doing I've seen it. I've seen fours that take all that beautiful thinking and feeling and then start doing in the world. Yeah. And it is a remarkable thing to see.

That's awesome. Well, Jill, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Thanks, Stephen. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well@sagehillresources.com.