Creativity - Part 2

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hi. This is Stephen James with the Sage Hill Live Fully podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm excited about our podcast. It's a little different. I have sister brother duo, Becca Wertz and Matt Wertz. Both are creative people. Becca is a visual artist and graphic designer based here in Nashville, and Matt is a really talented singer and songwriter who's had a long career creating music. I wanted to have some creative people on because it seems to me right now with all the stress and anxiety and, challenges we're facing in the world that creativity we've put to the back burner. And, really, creativity needs to be something that we remember we're made for. We're actually here to create good and beauty and kindness in the world. And so I wanted to have two of the most creative people I know, but also, two of the most honest and and processed people that I that I get to know in this in this world and, have them on and have a just a candid fluid conversation about creativity and the importance of it in our lives. So sit back and enjoy this conversation with Becca Wertz and Matt Wertz. Tell me about tennis shoes, man. Yeah. So when I It's actually one of my, like, dearest knowings about you. Oh, yeah? Yeah. And when I think of you, one of the first things I think of is this guy that love tennis shoes. And, like, really deeply admired and

dreamed of tennis shoes. Man, I mean, growing up when I did, I was in the bull's eye of Nike marketing. '19 like, late eighties to mid nineties, there was something and I've I've watched some interviews with Tinker Hatfield, who was the shoe designer for Do you even know who that is? It's so like nerdy in the whole Totally nerdy. But in the shoe community There's a shoe community. Oh my gosh. I I sound so like out of date when I say There is a shoe community and Tinker Hatfield is the god of the shoe community. He he made it. He made the shoe community unintentionally. He he was an architect by he was an architect that worked at Nike and was on a trip to, inspiration trip to Paris. And they went to what's the, museum where all the insides are on the outside of the museum? It's the modern

It's got the external stairs, Pompadou, or something like that. They they went there. Yeah. And yeah. It's Pompadou. I think that's right. And he got inspired because they just they've been starting to do the air, and he's like, what if we showed the air bubble? You know? And then he's like, well and then, like, that was, like, the most revolutionary thing. You had to have you had to have Nike Who had to have Nike? I had to have Nike ears. But anyone But you love Nike ears? My any boy I don't know. I I want I it is me, but it was way more than me. It was like boys my age. That's what you had to have, you know, in 1988, 1989. I mean so I was obsessed. I also was like a big draw. I like I loved to draw. Like and I mean, talk about, like, nerdy. I would have friends come over and we would just I had, like, this huge my parents, like I got to from a pretty early age, I got to help design my rooms Oh, wow. Which is cool. Like and so we had in our old house, there was, we built out a room for me in the basement because, like, I was still sharing rooms with, you know, my sisters. And it's like, we gotta find a space for Matt. It's a man's space. Yeah. So I had a room in the basement, and, we built, like, built in a big long desk and then, like, shelves above it. It was nothing, like, nice or anything, but I had a place to draw and do homework. And I'd have friends come over, and we would, like, both be drawing at the tape. We would draw together, you know, just sketch. And one of the things that we started we would start by just, like, drawing shoes that were that existed. And then we started making up our own shoes. And then we started and we made up our the shoe company. And I started writing copy for, like, tag lines for the shoe company. What was the name of the shoe company? It was called MCA, Matt Clinton Association or something. And our and our check mark was was just a variation of the Nike set. It was like it was basically, like, a Nike rip off. There's MCA. And we started taking shoes apart. And I developed at the time, like, it was like a way it was like Did you invent kangaroos? No. But I did invent elastic, elastic instead laces. So we, like, sewed in, like, elastic straps

on one of my old pairs of shoes. Oh, man. So you just, like, put them on. Yeah. I remember seeing the You mean you mean like this? Like, like I'm wearing right now? Yeah. Yeah. Although our our elastics were like thicker straps because that's just what we have. As soon as you get older, you can't really bend down and do your shoes. You have to like slip them on. So is that that's what those are those are elastic. It's And you don't even tie you don't tie. It's just, yeah, elastic cord. Yeah. Yeah. So But they come that way. You buy them that way. That's cool. Oh, nice. I missed the boat on that. Yeah. What? No. You didn't. You invented the boat. I invented it, and I was too young to know what to do with it. No. I remember seeing the like, the piece that was like the air pump that you would put in your shoe to, like, adjust the Oh, the Reebok pump. Yeah. We we, like, ripped it. I didn't have the pump, so it must have been one of my friends, like, pulled it out of an old shoe. And And so but we had, like, you know, the the air bladder that pumped and released. And, so yeah. As soon as I I knew when I was in high school, I asked my art teacher, like, what's the who designs tennis shoes? She's like, I think that would be like an industrial designer. I'm like, alright. Well, that's something I wanna do. And so, like, I went to school for industrial design, and, I went to Illinois. And they're kind of like a Illinois' program is known for, for, like, solving design like, design thinking, solving Yeah. Design problem solving problems. Yeah. And, you know, and they're kind of like they probably do more furniture, stuff, but I got done with that, program. My senior year really kinda like slowed momentum for me. Like, my instructor was his approach was like, hands off. If you need me, come find me. I'll be in my office. But but, basically, like, if you haven't, like, you're gonna have basically, he's pushed us out of the nest. You know? That was his way of, like, preparing us. And I was like, I don't really wanna do this anymore. Because I really liked I really liked the The relational dynamic. Yeah. Of working with a profess like, getting feedback. I love being able to, like, talk to professors and, you know, I made some really great I was really proud of some of my projects my sophomore and junior year. And also, it kind of coincided with, you know, more songwriting, performing, And, I'd released a record with my college band that we, you know, we would sell at What was the name of the property? Damascus

Road. Oh, I can remember the the cover right now. It was a it was a picture of like the braided like rope sandals. Like Jesus sandals? Oh, yeah. Damascus Road. I got you. Hey. Right right on. You know? Hey. No illusion there. Opening for Cademan's call or jars of clay. It was like really Shane and Shane. Wanted to be that like, if you, if you were Christian, you knew. But like, if you didn't, you just like, I don't know. Yeah. I I just Cool music. Cool music, man. Yeah. And And that's so that's so sad, like, like, this idea of, like, if if I'm a I'm gonna sound like an asshole. If I'm a if I'm a successful Christian artist, then other people will listen to my music as opposed to making the music you wanna make.

And let's make the music you wanna make and trust that, you know. Yeah. It never made sense to me to, like, limit my audience and, like, just from a business standpoint. Although, you know, now I see, okay, having a niche can be really helpful to, like, a clearer message. And some people really feel like I'm called called to do bluegrass music. Right. Or called to do Christian. To be in the and I just never did. I never I didn't want the responsibility of being an example. I was like, I don't wanna be your poster child. It tends to end badly. Yeah. I I I saw too I mean, a, I there was very little Christian music that I liked, and then it just seemed like you'd have to pretend a lot. Yeah. And I just was like, I don't wanna pretend. So I I never really Favorite concert you've ever been to? Man, I saw Ben Folds five, like, on the Whatever and Ever Amen tour at at the Granada Theater in Lawrence, which is probably a 700 cap room, my freshman year of college. So that would have been in 1997 or '8. And it was the energy was like unbelievable. Yeah. And and they were playing that was before Brick had hit. It was before it had blown up. Yeah. And I was a fan of their first album that had like, we can be happy underground. You know that song? No. But just what was it again? We can be happy underground. It's like, kind of punk rock piano. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And so I don't know, but I'm gonna nod like I did. Like, oh, yeah. I love punk rock piano music, man. It was so great. Anyway, that was probably my favorite. Becca, favorite museum.

Oh. Not favorite or just something, a moment like that. You're like, I remember when I. I remember when I, went to Musee d'Orsay in Paris for the first time and stood in the room with Monet's water lilies. And it was, like, so quiet. And I just I had seen pictures of them all my life, and then to see them in person was like, woah. It was like a holy moment. I remember when I turned the corner in, Florence and saw the David statue, and I started crying. Like, it is so beautiful. Wow. And and, similarly, it, like, reminds me of a, U2 concert I was in Chicago one time. It's like there's just something happening. It was in the United Center. It's like there's something happening here that's bigger than this band. There's something happening with that statue that was bigger than Michelangelo. There's something in this moment that I children talking about holy. Yeah. That's holy. Right? That's holy. Yeah. That invites us to,

something beyond ourselves and in ourselves at the same time. Right? I think I was at at one of those show I was I went to a YouTube show at United Center, like, the the one that they filmed. Oh, I don't know if they're I danced with a man that night. With who? Some man, like, some time dancing. Like, we were down on the floor and, it was it was ecstatic. And Bono was talking about love, and I turned to this guy, and we just started dancing. That's amazing. And then it felt weird. How many how many minutes into that dance? Oh oh, not minutes. It was it was seconds. It was long enough that we both knew it was weird, but we kept dancing, and then we stopped. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like twenty seconds, but twenty seconds Feels like a long time. It felt like a afterwards, it felt like a long time. Yeah. But, but it there's something that, like, it's just beautiful about, like, we're all in this thing together. I think that's what art can do. You know? Talk about, like, I wanna say the word advice. Maybe I I really mean the word encouragement. Mhmm. Because, you know, we have a singer songwriter and a visual artist, and, not everybody sees themselves in those typical creative ways. But, Becca, you were talking earlier that everyone's creative. Mhmm. Right? What encouragement would you give towards people to leaning in to their creative expression even this is if it doesn't live up to the American dream of monetization. Right? That Yes. You all both found ways to express your creativity through monetization and and make a living doing what you do. And that actually limits some creativity and has a burden on creativity and stifles creativity in some ways. Right? But but what would you say to, like, the normal person? You know? About creativity?

I would say, allow yourself to be curious about yourself and, like, what interests you. And, like, if you, you know, say you are really interested in plays, like, maybe, like, watch a, like, a master class or something, like, something that can let you, like, start slowly, that you don't have to, expect yourself to be a master at something, you know, right away. I think that's, like, advice I have to give myself. And it's sometimes creativity is not about mastery. It's about something else. Right. It's about the process and, like, allowing yourself to, be in the moment, be present to yourself, to your life, and, and, like, be with this, like, whatever mode it is you're exploring or expressing yourself with. Yeah. That's what first comes off the top of my head. That's awesome.

Yeah. Matt? There's something, you know, to piggyback that, there's something that when you are expressing that creativity that you're connecting with, that nothing else nothing else unlocks that. It's a place that, every child every child has. And some people just have gotten shamed, out of it. And and some people have gotten encouraged into, you know, to to water that and grow it more. But there's everyone is born innately with, as a creative person. And the other thing is, I'm just thinking like, there are people that won't even listen to this podcast because the word creative is on it, and they don't think that they are. So maybe you should name it something else, you know. Not really. But I'm just imagining some people just don't even think of themselves as being creative and And that's probably more of our core design. It's creative. I think so. I mean, even even if you just think about like, oh, this person should meet that person. That's creative. Yeah. Or, like, I don't know. Oh, this room, if if, like, you knock that wall out and you could do this or, like, oh, I know a way that you could split this do this electrical thing so that it does this. And, like, that's all creative. Or if you're a lawyer and you're, like, thinking about how you can,

approach a case that would be, like, a good strategy, that's creative. I can bend this law That's creative. Into my advantage. Yeah. That's creativity. It's creativity. And I watch our niece, Sophie. She's three years old and we got her an easel and some art supplies for her birthday. And she has just been, like, going to town with that thing. Like, she's got a roll of paper that, like, she'll she'll paint and then she'll, like, want you to pull it down so she has a fresh, like, slate again. And I got her these, things. They're called quick sticks, and it's like a tempera paint. It's almost looks like a glue stick but they're all different colors and like I'm inspired watching her make marks on the page. I'm like, oh my gosh, like I need to get myself a set of those and just like set aside time to just play and like And use your opposite hand. Yeah. Yeah. And like not for the sake of, oh, I have to show this to somebody or this has to be something that I sell, but just for the sake of like doing it and like working out, you know, whatever's going on.

Blindfold yourself and use your left hand or right hand, whatever is like Your non dominant hand. Non dominant hand blindfolded. Go. Because it's the it's like, there's I don't know. I think what happens I've read this somewhere is that our brains to in order are wired for efficiency. So we have like, they've learned to associate face it. That's a face, you know. And then like, that's Stephen's face. And that's you know, what just and so we do that with everything. Everything gets compartmentalized so that our brands don't have to work so hard. It's called data chunking. Data chunking. That's what we call it. Yeah. So but what happens is when we do that, we like we we forget that like a a tree can be purple. I took an art class a few years ago now. Probably, maybe fifteen years ago now. It's an artist way class. Right? I took it. And the first day, she had a picture and she goes, we're gonna draw this today. I'm like, there's no way in hell I can draw that picture. And she goes, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna turn it upside down, and I want you just to draw the lines. And so instead of drawing it was a horse and a man. Instead of drawing the horse and the man, I was just drawing lines that my brain couldn't make sense of horse and man because it was upside down. And by the end, it's like, oh my gosh. I drew I drew the picture really well by not trying to draw the picture. Amazing. Right? And but it it fooled that part of my brain that was trying to simplify That's cool. And made me pay attention to the detail and maybe pay like, just I couldn't I couldn't put it in my categories. Right? And I think that's what art and creativity does so well, is it invites us as the as the viewer or the experience of art to step outside of our comfortable categories,

you know? And there's no shame in asking art without the experience of risking shame. And that's something. Mhmm. Yeah. Like Yep. If your commitment is to not be at stake again, you're you're stifling your own creativity. You're right. You know? Yep. Yep. It's a risk. I I write poetry. I'm not gonna read it right now, but I write poetry. And, some of my poems are really good. And I just wrote one that I thought was really good. And I was doing a vulnerability exercise with some guys, some entrepreneurs last week, and I thought, I'll read my poem. And it fell so flat. Yeah. And I was like, they just didn't get it. So I read it harder. And they they it was like, this is so bad, you know. But it but the act of vulnerability was so good. Right?

Yeah. I know. It is so hard. Dude, you okay. So you're gonna, lead an artist way class. Yes. And Oh, you are? You're gonna do that? Yeah. Oh, yay. Yeah. We just got it. Sign up at Sage Hill.co. Sagehillcounseling.com for the Becca Ward says artist way class. And I've been leading, creative writing classes Oh, wow. Through this, nonprofit called The Fold that Leslie Jordan from All Sons and Daughters, the, the, worship band started. And I started just going as, like, a because I I I tried it out, because she invited me to come, and it was like, honestly, it's for burnout. Like, it was the invitation was to kinda, like, to burn out songwriters, you know? Which Nashville is full of. Full of them. And so that was my ticket in. But, and the whole premise is we write to prompts, and but there's no, and and we share, but we only there's time to respond, but the only response that we give is, is encouraging. It's it's like what's working. God, it makes me so scared. What's working about the the piece? Not I would hate that. Oh, yeah. It's It's my shame. Like, I want you to tell me what's wrong so I can fix it. Oh. I don't wanna hear that you like me. I want the criticism. Well, yeah. And it's funny because there occasionally Which is sick. There are some people that we've had that that have really had a hard time with that. They want the criticism and like, sorry. We're not gonna there is a there is a method, like a process that if you bring in something, a finished piece, that you would like, like constructive criticism on, there is process to go through for that. But it's, but it's everything's really like safe. Yeah. It feels it's a safe process. And it just gives people an opportunity. It's one it's one tool for to give people an opportunity to like, get in the water, you know? Try it out. Like, try riding and work and you're gonna hear some people that you're like, you're gonna have to read after some really great stuff. It's like, you just wrote that in five minutes? You where did that come from? That happens to me every time. And then inevitably, I'll share something that I wrote, and they're like, you why did you have all those caveats for, like, why you didn't wanna read and then you did anyway? Like, that was that was awesome, you know. But anyway Shame their shame. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Why are you such a dumbass? Yeah. It cancels it out though. Right? No. But yes. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. It's that's been, a fun, like, exercise practice, that, like, that I've been first, like, and the the leaders participate. Right? The only thing that we do as facilitators is just, like, keep the bumpers on the on the, you know Yeah. Road. So that and we also we also address the piece. If your if your piece is written in first person, we say the narrator. Sounds like the narrator that there's a lot of anger narrate because we treat it as fiction. Yeah. So that we're not like, wow, Stephen. Like, you're really like angry or like It's not a therapy group. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a therapy. It's a creative writing group. It's not and it and it might end up being therapeutic for you, but it's not a therapy group. Yeah. So,

it's yeah. It's great. So what I heard you say is, like, the safety of the group was, like, really important. Yes. And I would say the same is true for my experience is, like, when you're doing something that vulnerable, and you like, because art is an expression of yourself, like you you need I need safe people around me to, to like be in it with me. And the, the the artist way group I'm a part of, it's so funny because there's a doctor, two nurses, a therapist, and myself. Yeah. And so, like, we're all coming at this from, like, different angles. And I honestly think it was, like, good for me to not have other, like, visual artists in the group with me because my bent can be towards comparison. But it's been, I think, like, having finding people that are, like, your yes people and that are, like, allow you to, like,

show up with Like the your work. Our inner critic is helpful. It's he and she are just not always accurate. Like, the authority of which they speak isn't always accurate. Like, they can say when something's off Mhmm. But they're not necessarily good at saying what's gonna work. Right? And so learning how to hold that the inner critic, appropriately and give it its place in our creative process or in our daily living Mhmm. Right, and treat it as an advisor, but not as an authority figure Yeah. I think is really freeing, for us. Thinking about lots of things right now inside my own life that I wanna go practice that with. Oh, man. Yeah. I know. Oh, man. And another idea that, as you're talking that's coming up in me is sometimes this goes back to you're making how you describe making music, Matt. Sometimes the role of creativity is stewardship. Right? This thing is there, and it's my responsibility to steward it as creativity. Like, it wants to become something. So it's my role to help it become what it's trying to become as opposed to imposing my vision of what it needs to be on it. It's gonna be something about music. That's what you're talking about. And working with other people. Yeah. Yeah. Like letting other people yeah. Yeah. Which I'm learning to do better. Mhmm.

It took me a while to like, for a long time, I thought I felt a lot of, shame about the fact that I wrote I need I needed other people to write with me, because some of the voices that I was hearing, like, both real and imagined were that, like, doing it by yourself was, like, there was something more admirable to that. You're you're you're you are more, legit, more legitimate if you don't need any help. And, you're certainly more alone if you don't need help. It's very true. So I I've always need like, I've I've needed help. And, in order to and I think I had a couple early on. My first record that was like that really kind of, like, got out there was I made with, Ed Cash and Dave Barnes, who are both Nashville guys. And always dreamt of well, not always, but as soon as I had met Ed at a Young Life camp, in North Carolina, I was like, I wanna, like, work with that guy, you know. And I also saw that he, like, produced Bebo Norman and Caden's Call. These people I wanted to be like. So I got to work with him. And and Dave was, I just met Dave. And Dave was, by by God's weird way, was interning for for Ed. And we're like friends. So I've met Dave, hang out. We made a record together, all three of us, you know. And one of the song that was on that record, was a song that Dave offered me that was his song that, we needed another upbeat uptempo song. We were, like, you know, probably two thirds of the way in, and we're listening, like, we kinda need another up tempo song. He's like, would you wanna record Everything's Right? Mhmm. And I was like, are you serious? Like Give me your song? Yes. I do. Wow. And I, like, I rewrote, like, some verse lyrics, but and then we

we we like Just enough to go to co write. Wrote a different Yeah. I know what you do. Enough. Yeah. I literally I have 20%. Okay. But I also just wanted to feel like it was mine. Yeah. You know, like I needed to. Like, I needed to feel like it like, I I cared and but I had so much shame about that because that song really like, people still like, everything's right with my favorite song of yours. I'm like, your favorite song of mine is one that that Dave wrote. Great. And dude, for a long time, I had so much, like, resent like, bitterness about that. And, like, I I mean, I really it took me a long a while to, like, like, let that go and accept that like, hey, that I mean, what a gift to have that song. And I'd forgotten, like, you don't hear all the other people saying like, Red Meets Blue. That's my favorite song. Or I Will Not Tame Up. That's my favorite. You don't hear that. All you hear are the like hand like the handful Like people said that, but you couldn't hear it. No. Yeah. Yeah. People said that, but I couldn't hear it. It didn't land like Everything's Right, that's my favorite song. And I just like the then the stories that you tell yourself, like, I mean, I'm only as good as, you know, the songs that I write with other people or that, like, Dave writes, you know. And so I had a I had a huge, like, ditch to dig out of, like, to crawl out of that I was just thinking that, like, I was, my my success was somehow, like, connected to and dependent on, like, riding with Dave. Or or, like, what you know, like, I'm never gonna have another song, like, good song if he's not a part of it. So your your

toxic shame infused even your creativity? Like, it came in and it was like Of course. Yeah. Yes. And it what I'm hearing you say is like, that's like operating out of like the scarcity mindset, which I so identify with. There's your mid westernism that shows up. That's where I was Winter's coming, folks. They store up a bunch of stuff. Gotta gotta put everything store. When we reuse napkins apparently. We hold on. Paper napkins. Oh, my grandmother when she died and I'll let you finish your thought after this Becca. We were cleaning out her apartment and she had saved aluminum foil that she would clean and then store, like bags and bags of it. Right? That that that, post depression era mindset that so infested the Midwest and and Northeast kind of stuff. Anyway, go ahead. Our grandparents did that as well. Mama Doc and Papa Doc. Mhmm.

They were our dad's, parents and Papa Doc was a vet. Mama Doc, got a degree from k state in home economics. Oh, yeah. How to be a good wife. Yeah. Yeah. But they would save, styrofoam cups and, like, reuse those for their coffee or like when they went to Burger King and, you know, got some of that or whatever. Wow. And then Papa Doc would reuse his nap his dinner napkin. Oh, yeah. They would be sitting on his spot, like, for days. Paper. Yeah. Disposable. Yeah. And now dad's doing that. You you whispered like it's not on the podcast. Like dad's doing that. I kinda hear it. I know. Dad, stop saying the paper. I kinda whisper because like, isn't that that's right. Right? Is he Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like what? Where did that, why did that start now?

But I, at the same, on the same token, I have been thinking a lot about, like, who have my, like, who my creative, like, champions have been throughout my life. And, I think it's come up more for me as I've been designing my space is how much my grandmother, like, inspired me and, like, nurtured this creative part in me. She, I have several of her things, that are some of my, like, cherished items. Like, I have these two chairs, that were hers that that I've, like, noted. Like, I would like to have those someday and, like, had had a vision of, like, wanting to cover them in green velvet. And it just that idea never left me. And so finally, when I, like, knew I was gonna have my own place, I, like, like, bought the fabric and, like, got them covered. And it, like, felt like this, like, just moment of, like, oh, like, she's gone, but, like, I still have her with me. Mhmm. And she was constantly, like, whenever we'd go to visit for, like, a week in the summer, we would, she would always have, like, a craft for us to do. She would take us to museums and we went to, like, the Butterfly House, like, the Arboretum, like, always, like, you know, experiencing She's an artist. Yeah. She just took me to the baseball card,

baseball card shops and to Footwalker. Yeah. Well, Footwalker means she knew you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Let's stop with that story. Thank you guys so much. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for having us on. Hey. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast. This is Stephen James. If you do want to sign up for the Artist Way class that, Becca's gonna be hosting through Sage Hill beginning in January, love for you to do that. You can go to Sage Hill.co or sagehillcounseling.com, or check out one of our social media feeds and, find information on about it there. We're really excited about, her willingness and graciousness to help facilitate that for us. It's a great chance for you to start in the new year with kind of a creative rebirth and creative exploration, and you don't have to be a person who identifies yourself as an artist to begin to develop and nurture your creativity. It will pay off in all areas of your life. So go check that out. Thanks for listening, and, remember that you can live fully. We're here to help.

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