The Ladder

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey. This is Stephen James, executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Today on the Sage Hill podcast, I have my old friendship, Dodd, the founder of Sage Hill, and we will be talking about, one of his kind of foundational ideas called the ladder. It really is an invitation to move ourselves from performing in order to belong and matter to being as a way of belonging and mattering. If you wanna know more about Sage Hill, go to Sage Hill.co. If you wanna find out more about Chip Dodd, you can visit him on his website, chipdodd.com. Thanks for listening. Hey, Chip. Hello, Stephen James. Welcome back to the Sage Hill podcast. It has been a long, long time, hadn't it? It's good to see. Actually, in the podcast time, it's not been. I was looking back to the podcast, and I think we've only done one podcast since the last time you and I did a podcast. What what do you mean? That's a long, long time. Right? Well, I know. But, like, if people just listen to the podcast, it's not just that whole Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Because somebody somebody I was talking to somebody last week, and

they started listening to all the podcast, and they were talking about so and so, like like, it was very fresh. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's when I was, like, 18. So thanks for thanks for making time to do this today. Yeah. I'm glad to. Now but this podcast is, not gonna be visual. When well, you haven't moved to the visual. It's just audio. We're not doing vlogs or whatever those are called. Dress like this for nothing? You dress yes. Your plaids, clash appropriately. No. No. No. This is a Oh, they look good. A flannel with a moleskin vest. Is your top button button on that flannel? Oh, wow. So you've got a a leather vest on, like a moleskin vest with a flannel shirt with the top button button. Well, and I don't think it's flannel. I think it's You said it was?

Well, I think I don't know what it is. It's a cotton. It's rubber cotton. Is it a broadcloth? Would that be cloth? Brush? No. Oxford the brushed cotton, maybe? Okay. Yeah. But it looks really good. It looks really good. It does look good. That it does look good. I could not tell that was a leather vest, but I'm glad it is. But it it isn't leather. It's, it's Chinese polyester. You know, we're we're breaking the rule of radio. We're doing sight gags on the radio. Oh, I'm I'm the one guilty of it. So Okay. Yeah. David, come on. You're fine. Well, yeah. Well, thanks for being here. Well, I wanted to talk about one of your lectures, that you invented years ago called the Ladder. You actually have a poster of it. Can people still get a poster? The poster is still available?

Know the Ladder? Yeah. Yeah. I think I think possibly, contact Karen Carnes. I'll give you her phone number. Email. Let's see. Email somebody. Resources. Oh, no. No. No. No. I think, yeah. Yeah. Shake your resources. Yeah. You do that. Resources? Okay. Yeah. And it's just it's just really it's a really, I'm thinking of the poster. It's this ladder that's going up and hits the clouds and then comes out the other side of the clouds. And Yes. The reason I wanted to talk to you about this I just shook my head because I can see this. That that that's people say yes. Yes. Yes. So people can imagine a ladder going up from the ground, going through the clouds, and just keep going up. And the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is because, twice last week, someone brought up the metaphor to me about the ladder they're climbing has been leaned up against the wrong building, and then they just leaned it up against the right thing. And when they said that, like, smoke almost came out of my ears because it's like they're just it's another fool's errand. You know? This this and so I thought, man, Chip and I are talking next week. This is awesome. We'll talk about the latter. That's great. So if if we could if you could, like, walk us through the ladder, visually and what it represents and different pieces on it and that kind of stuff, and I'll break in and ask questions. That sounds great. And, you know, a a caveat or,

this is what we're not saying. This is what I'm not saying. This isn't an either or proposition we're talking about. So I want your you know, I want the people who are listening to go please let yourself go through the whole thing because it's a both and. But but the the reward is about adding back on what the latter can give you, but it's where you're starting from that's gonna is the is the purpose of the whole thing. You you gotta start from the right place. Okay? K. But but I want everyone to Which is the top? Start at the top. Start at the top. But I want everyone to yes. Like, start at the top. And it doesn't mean start at the bottom, but it means start start differently. But, there's nothing wrong with performing. We're all in need, and we all have to, and we're all made to perform. So is that Would that be the same as, like, achieve? We're we're all made to produce. We're all made to and it which is taking action action and taking risk and going and doing it. I mean, go do it. Go perform. You're made to perform. But, you know, my son, William, really kinda helped me really see, you know, the beauty of of not thinking a performance as an either or proposition. Because when he was when he was in law school, he realized that he was very gifted at moot court, and and he was capable of arguing both sides of a proposition or a problem. And and they they they give it to you sometimes, like, you find out right before you go up if you're gonna argue the left or the right. Not I don't mean politically, but just in terms of one opinion or another, plaintiff or defendant. And he said, dad, what I found out is I can perform. I'm a performer. And he said, I always thought of that as kinda like that means a as a bad thing. It means, like, a fake or it means, like, pretending or you can sell or something like that. But what it really means is that when called upon you, you are capable. Okay? So you're capable of drawing from that which is within you and bringing it outside of you. K. Hold on. Hold on. Okay. So perform Truly that accurate perform. True perform. Not not being not who you are. Yeah. It means bringing that is which is within you, outside of you so that you're actually able to In a useful way. Yeah. That your presence and your actions match. K. You're the real deal, and you can get it done. Yeah. You're that you're the gamer. Call us gamers. You're the guy that get it done. Yeah. Yeah. So okay. So start out with the the ladder is the vertical. Right? And then there's a flat ground, which is the horizontal. So this this poster is a 90 degree angle, the ladder going up. And for many people, you know and there are two questions on the vertical side of the the poster is how am I doing?

That's the going up clip. If I'm on the ladder, I'm asking the question, how am I doing? How am I doing? And there's nothing wrong if you're a performer by for asking how am I doing because I wanna make sure I do this extremely well because I wanna get everything out of me and produce everything I possibly can. That's an accurate question. How am I doing? Give me feedback. But what I'm talking we're talking about an impaired expression of how am I doing, which is what's my grade? Where do I rank? How much better or worse am I than other people? And it's like motivation to achieve through approval and grades, external validation of worth. Okay? How am I doing external validation of worth? So what happens is if if you're trained to ignore how you're made and you're taught that success comes through proving yourself over and over, and so many men I've worked with, they they're asked they ask a question of themselves and that they've never had anybody validate the accuracy of of the answer is, do I have what it takes? And, a man needs to know that that he has someone in his corner so that when he goes out and find out finds out if he has what it takes, when he comes back to the corner, there's somebody there that says you're okay whether you win or lose. So it's just not whether or not you have what it takes because if you go into the arena itself, it means you do. Yeah. But you need somebody in your corner to help help you with your wounds or help you with your success or whatever afterwards. So okay. So That's really good. Yeah. So to have what it takes means I'm not alone. Will you stay with me? If I win, Will you stay with me if I lose? Will you be with will you be have my back? Are you in my corner? Yes. And so, a man who starts out into the world and doesn't have a place to come back to, more than likely, he's he's raised or trained to climb the ladder of success. And all along the way, he's asking himself, how am I doing? Now what that means is that he he has come into a world that he believes success is about three things. You need to become independent, self sufficient, independent, which means you're the one people go to versus you having to go to someone. You need to become realistic. Hey. This is just business. This is how it works. You know, that life's a crap sandwich. Eat it to starve. And if you're lucky, you're fortunate, you've got plenty of jelly to put on it. I mean, like, it it is what it is. That's a that's a capstone statement. A lot of people say be realistic. Agency is what it is. Deal with it. If you if you can't run with the big boys, get out of the way kind of thing or big girls, get out of the way. So it's really kind of like a survival of the fittest is is who is is who's most realistic, survival of the fittest. This is how life works. These are the rules. Deal with it and get out of the way. And, Stephen, by the way, something that's very important that Oh, independent. Independent and Realistic. Yeah. But What's the third thing? No. No. No. Let let's do this first. I promise we'll get to the third thing. The third thing is is is power.

Okay. Power. Okay. So hold on. We'll go back now to the We'll come back now. What's amazing is the evolutionary biologist through the, you know, the vagal nerve and all this kind of work that's been doing been done, what they're saying is that that human beings have a biological imperative to be connected. And and what they're saying, mammals need herds. Okay? And and I don't agree with it in terms of just being, you know, just evolutionary piece because I think there's a lot more to it. But what's in what's amazing about what they're saying is that that that biological imperative is that we be together, that we connect because it's about survival of the fittest. And what's fascinating is that the the fittest is the person who's most capable of of being gentle. So the greatest strength of the human being is gentleness, not toughness, Because gentleness means available to be leaned on at a time of need. So who whoever is capable of being strongest enough strongest enough to be in somebody to lean on them will draw more people to them because we all hunger to be safe, and we all hunger to be cared about. So survival of the fittest is actually guided by the things that make us most beautifully human rather than toughness. Do you get that?

So you're saying, true survival of the fittest, the most fit is being gentle. We Yes. We you're doing your Chip Dodd thing where you take a phrase that people think they've heard and you're redefining it in a in a better way. I love it. Makes me that's exciting. Yes. So because most people here survive all the fittest, and they think independent, powerful, realistic, stoic. I would even I would say stoic over realistic. It's really, instead of being most available to relationship is the fittest you can be is he who is most capable having power Yeah. Independent and being realistic within the But, you know, as you said, if we're asking that, a lot of us learn very early that in order to belong and matter, right, we've gotta perform. That we're not gonna we're not gonna find acceptance in being vulnerable or needy or wounded or Yeah. You know. So we but we get accolades.

By proving yourself. By prove yeah. By accomplishing and winning and beating somebody else and, And so the ladder Yeah. With the ladder is on the ladder, there's only enough room for one person at at on a rung. So the person below you is the person who's trying to overcome you, and the person above you is somebody's who's in your way. A great example was, the tragedy of independence, power, and being realistic and achievement. Being number one is what will fulfill. And there was a guy there he I treated him years ago. He's a surgeon, orthopedic surgeon. When he was in med school, he was number three in his class. And the number two man committed suicide. And and he said his first thought was good, only one guy in the way. Oh my god. So that that is the latter. That is what the The opposite of gentleness. Yes. How am I doing is like you gotta clear clear the field. Get get everybody out of the way. And he who has the most money, that's how you keep score, or he who has the most power, or who owns the most real estate, or whatever. So it's competition against each other in the name of success. And you can authority. Yeah. Yeah. You can form teams around but here's the tragedy, is that that when you get up through the clouds, what you find out is that the it's just more ladder. You're always going from rung to rung, climbing to a place you'll never get to. And so, you know,

it's somebody with more power Yeah. Who's more independent and cares less than you. Yes. Who's more realistic. Absolutely. And no matter how far you get, there's still more to climb. So it's really it's really the tragedy of seeking immortality as a way to to have full success in life and to to to to make your name spoken everywhere in the world will somehow fulfill your heart. Mhmm. See, that's an external validation of really a lack of internal sense of worth. Yeah. Say that again. An external validation validation. Of a lack of an internal sense of worth. Sense of worth. K. Like, I don't know if I'm loved or not, really. Yeah. Yeah. And and the only way you know you're loved is you're loved because of what you brought from the inside outside, and you're still accepted and cared about. That's how you know your love. Yeah. And so what's on the inside is really what we feel, what we need, what we desire, what we long for, what we hope, and what we dream. And also the mistakes we've made and the joys we've had and the griefs we've experienced, that's on our insides. Yeah. And so if you're independent and realistic and and seek power, you withhold vulnerability. You withhold neediness. You withhold what really makes us connected.

Yep. K. That makes sense? Yeah. So I'm thinking about a performing artist. Like, there's a little bit stark contrast, but the performing artist who goes out and sings for the applause and for the paycheck versus the performing artist who goes out and gets applauded and receives a paycheck, but is really sharing something that's inside of them that they have to get out. Totally different. Yes. Totally different. And the story of Janis Joplin is a great story to to delineate, that difference. How so? Well, Janice Joplin, said, you know, she died of a heroin overdose. Jimmy Jimi Hendrix, died, like, one month later, really of the same problem. But, she said this is a paraphrase quote. But she said, the loneliest she's ever been is after bonding with an audience of 20,000 going backstage and being utterly alone or lonely, and her best friend was was getting high. And yet, she would absolutely pour out her creative energies and and pour out her her juice, so to speak. Everything that she made to be like. I mean, she was an incredible artist, and she brought everything to it that she possibly could. But she she attempted to connect with somebody in something that couldn't connect back with her, which is her audience. So she was trying to get something from the audience and audience couldn't give. But someone who could hold her in her arm could could hold her in their arms and stay with her her whole life in the corner, in the champion in the corner, so to speak, would have been that which would continue to inspire her. Mhmm. But it said, because she did not know how to do even though she talked about feelings all the time, she didn't know how to live with her own. She's saying feelings all the time, but didn't know how to experience her own neediness. Yeah. So, I mean, it's in an astounding see, only a person who's capable of doing feelings, needs, desire, longings, and hope is capable of gentleness because they're secure within, able to be leaned on, and can recognize another person's needs themselves

to to to be available to say, yeah, man. We're all made to connect. It's okay. It it's it's fair to say, and I've heard you say this before, we we all find ourselves on that ladder asking the question, how am I doing? How am I doing? Yes. Yes. And and and the more you were abandoned or the more you were your heart was where you grew up having how God made you, having your anthropology rejected, the more ladder climbing you do, you get your needs met through performing Yeah. Versus versus explaining performance express who you really are. So the second question the first question is how am I doing? Ask in a way that's impaired versus the real question is what am I doing? Right. So it's how am I doing versus what am I doing? And the only way off the ladder, typically, is not climbing down gently over people. Excuse me. Trying to get down. I'm sorry. So sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I was lost. Yeah. Most most of us, a strong wind blows or someone grabs us by the scrap of the neck. We find ourselves on our butt laying on the ground. Yeah. And, you know, and and actually what And we and we asked the question, where am I? Like, what? That is that is so true. Stephen, it you know, I you as you know, I treated,

when I when I I started CPE and three treated doctors, mainly physicians, but all kinds of extremely successful people for twenty something years. And I I had not one person who came to treatment as a volunteer. They they all fell from the ladder, through addiction or depression or loss of family or burns and consequences. Yeah. Yes. And, you know, but he and and two, it's very difficult to climb off the ladder. I remember Sonya when she was a child, she she got up on the high dive and went out to the end of the board. She was, like, in fifth grade and said, this is a bad idea. So she literally turned around, and everybody had to move out of the way while she Oh, I did that. I did that. Yeah.

And you took some you took some grief for it, didn't you? Oh, man. And because there's people when you're a kid, there's people already on the ladder. Like, there's weight in their spot. Yes. You know? Yeah. And, it's like Yeah. Excuse me. I I I don't wanna do this. Yes. And so you probably you got called names and looked at funny. You didn't have the guts. And let's just say you didn't have a crowd that followed you out. Yeah. Well, there there's the there's also the the fake spiritual ladder of, like, I'm not on the ladder. You know? Like Yes. I'm I bought a different ladder than you now. Like, I'm more this. I'm more that. We see that show up in Yeah. That duality and recovery and yeah. Needs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's like I'm I'm beyond needs because,

frankly, I live in heaven while I'm on earth and, you know Yeah. I just don't have I just don't have a lot. Well, I have plenty to offer you. What else do you you know, it's it's Kumbaya. So you fall off the ladder. You you're you've been asking yourself this question. How am I doing? How am I doing? How am I doing? How am I doing? Something happens for you to you. You you find yourself laying down the ground and Your tragedy is very likely the the your beginning of rebirth if you're Yeah. Yeah. It can really be. And, you know, I have seen so many restorations and extraordinary stories that begin in, you know, the frankly, despair or tremendous embarrassment or loss or landing in a place I just don't wanna go back to. So at that point, you know, the question is it's kind of a natural question. It's like, what do I do? Or how do I get out of here? And and and we grow into, like, who can help me? And it's amazing, you know, Stephen, this is cool coolest thing that that that this is the what am I doing world. Okay? What am I doing? Means that you're capable of asking for help. So in other words, give me some feedback to help me see, but I'm also looking in the mirror asking the vulnerable question. Like, what am I doing with my life? What's going on with me? What am I feeling? What am I looking for? What do I want? What do I need? Where's God? Where are my friends? I mean, that's that's an admission of my inborn craving to connect. Right? Yeah. And neurobiology and neuroscience and the spiritual root system is absolutely proven now through neurobiology and neuroscience. Yes. It was it's like, It's phenomenal. I love it. You know? Because, you know, you know, I was out there on a limb in the beginning on intuition. It's it's really kinda cool that, you know, I guess Scientists caught up with your intuition. But kind of shadow about part, I said,

Like like like the third grader. I was right. But but what's astounding is it's like, you know, how you're born? You know, you're you're born crying out, reaching out, and and and and taking in. Now listen to this. This is so cool. This is, like, mind blowing cool. Alright? You ready? You you in in in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says this incredible thing. It's in Matthew seven seven. He's basically says, hey. By the way, when you grow up when you grow up, you don't leave how you were made behind. That cry out turns into something. That reach out tends turns into something, that take in turns to something. He says this, basically, you don't receive because you do not ask. Now and then he turns it into when you grow up, you don't leave behind how you're made. You become capable of asking. And then he says, so you will receive. Seeking, so you will find. If you're asking for something, you're crying out. If you're seeking something, you're reaching out. And then it says, knock and the door will be opened unto you. In other words, life fulfillment, life's, ratification, life's answers, life's solutions are in the vulnerability. Right. Ask, seek, knock, and when you knock, the doors open under you, which means you get fed and you can walk out with doggy bags. In other words, you can go feed. Right? Do you get what I'm saying? You got, yeah, you got more to give away. Yeah. So so the what am I doing and here's the cool part. We were born dependent. K? We were born truthful, and we were born with full presence. And that is made to grow into something, not something we grow out of. And so we were born asking the question first, where are you? Because we were born looking for who was looking for us. Yeah. And so we're born for connection. And so that where are you becomes what do I do with me? How do I live? Show me what to do. Show me where to go. Show me how to process this internal world. So dependence, instead of being something hateful, being truthful instead of being something embarrassing, and being fully present instead of it being a weakness, those are the grounds out of which we grow our strength. Yeah. And the more I have people showing me what to do, how to do it, how to live, the stronger I become, the more capable I become. And capable means having capacity to tolerate pain. Right? I was thinking and the more courageous I become. Right. Yes. And the more able I am to live fully, which is emotional resilience. Yeah. So by me saying what am I doing? I'm getting feedback from others and I'm showing up telling the truth about what's happening inside of me, and I'm being shown how to live. And here's the cool part. K? I've I've Okay. It's okay. We've done a lot of cool parts there, but go ahead. Okay. But this one's so cool. This this to me is, like, just so it it could've saved Janis Joplin's life. You know? And still, she could've been just as as Pamatologist. Passionate, you know, as as she as she was made to be. But if you do dependents well, being being taught and shown how to live through vulnerability, asking for help, seeking and knocking, then dependents becomes capable of standing up and taking risks in pie in spite of what other people's opinions may be. K? My dependence becomes capable of making decisions in spite of people's approval or disapproval. So we but through my dependency, I become independent. And then it's like even I live truthfully, but I do so I I take risks knowing that I may go take this, risk and with this business venture, I may fail

because reality is Or or having children. Or having children. That's a risk. Yeah. Might take a risk, but I'm doing it truthfully within the context of reality. So people who live truthfully, they can live realistically, but life is tragic. God is faithful, but I'm made to live, and I'm gonna do it. Yeah. Truthful. Truthful. So, like, that what am I doing often comes back. I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing. Yes. Right? I'm showing me. Help me. Show me. I need. Yes. And then being fully present, allows a person to become extremely powerful or empowered so that we can live with passion. Okay? The perp the result is we live with passion. Like, I'm willing to be in pain for something that matters more than pain. And look, man, I'm 63 years old. I've been beating a drum for thirty something years with an with an unchanged message, though I've added lots of expressions of it. The message core message is is helping people see who they're made to be so they can do what they're made to do. And we need to be asking the question, what am I doing? Get off the ladder or maybe don't get on it and start asking now so you don't wind up in a place you don't wanna be. So, Yeah. The higher you go, the longer the fall. Right? Yes. I mean Yes. So Yeah. But but if you ask the question, what am I doing? You're gonna live with passion. You're gonna be willing and able to stand alone because you never will be alone, and you're gonna be able to finish strong. Yeah. So what am I doing is the path of equality. What am I doing is, like, you meet people along the way who have stories to share of what it's like to be human with you Yeah. Versus competing against you And telling you their story about how they were so great and they're immortal versus telling you the story about how they got to where they are and what are you looking for yourself. They're sharing versus competing.

That's good. And competition when you said at the beginning, let's just circle back, that, like, competition and performance aren't bad. No. They're fun. They're they're exhilarating. But when I look to get my identity or my worth or my value from the outcome of the competition or performance, then I'm in trouble. Yeah. Like, I've set my I've set myself on a course. For me, a lot of times, I've I've thought, like, the that ladder is really like a hamster wheel. You know? It just goes like, it never ends, goes round and round and round. Yes. You know? It's the ladder. Yeah. It's the ladder. Right? It's the ladder. It and you think you're going up, you're just going around. You're just going around. Yeah. Escalator that never ends kind of thing.

But it's so it I love what you said at the beginning. It's not black or white. Right? It's not it's not good, bad. It's not either one. It's not either one. There there is good and bad, but it it but when I try to get my identity, my worth, my sense of self validation, love, acceptance, belonging, mattering through performance or competition, then it leads me to isolation, leads me to to, having to seek power, but ultimately end up alone as opposed to in community. Yeah. And you know see yeah. And see, climbing the ladder is not a it's not a badness. It's it's just a secondary option because you're made to belong in matter. And, and and You were made to really matter, like, really belong in matter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, adolescence I'm thinking about adolescence. Like, there's this phenomena when somebody hits phenomenon? Phenomena? When somebody hits adolescence, there's an imaginary audience. Like, the a child, a teenager I was not in school. I may still be in it because I was laughing. Sometimes. Sometimes we all are. Right? But, but, middle school or early high schooler is really like, their brain is a like, there's an imagine they're always watching. What are other people gonna think? Like, I they're gonna make fun of me walking across this room or I can't go do that. But we all can remember moments in our adolescence of feeling that way, but there's it's all rooted in shame. Right? That that sense of belonging and mattering is rooted in

Rooted rooted rooted in shame and also rooted in developmental desire for greatness. Right. Development desire to be seen. Yes. And developmental desire to be recognized. And now the conflict at that point too is hopefully that there are teachers, mentors, you know, disciplers and friends who we bond with who say, you know, absolutely you're made for those things. But there's the never being forgotten, immortal like Beowulf. Yeah. Or there's the contributing to something greater than yourself, which is Oh, man. I remember this, story, this moment from high school soccer game where I messed up really big. And the coach put in the substitute, and the substitute did so well that he was on the front page of the local sports section the next day. Exactly. And right? And I felt awful. You know? But what was as I reflect back on that, what helped was two buddies came home with me that night, and they they hung out with me. Like, I I mean, like but that was, like, even in the midst of wanting to achieve and perform and get a scholarship and be the best and be on the front page of the paper and be recognized and celebrated and adored, like, I actually found real friendship in failure.

You know, that's beautiful. What too, Stephen, there's a a a one of this a friend of mine's son, was just, became It sounds like a counselor, doesn't it? I mean, hold on. How do I say this? A friend of mine sucked. Yeah. He he, he was he just got picked to be hall of fame. Just it was a high school hall of fame thing. Yeah. And then there were 10 guys that got picked to be part of this hall of fame. And it was the neatest thing. I I I got to go and hear the the each guy talk. Every single one of them, except one, said, I don't remember the games. I remember who I played with. And and all of them were performers. Yeah. And all of them valued who they got to perform with. So that's I think that's a great example, like, the presence becomes empowerment. Truthfulness becomes also capable of living in loss, realistic. And that, real depending on each other I mean, if you can run, run. If you can hit hit, you can depending on each other, becomes an independent

capacity to win, lose, and go. And then it's not so difficult to go do it again. Like, it's not about I mean, I might lose, but I'm not gonna be alone. Right. And that's how the heart gets involved in a mission, and that's how a mission, even if it fails, it didn't. Let's stop right there. That's really good. Yeah. Let's stop right there. What am I doing versus how am I doing? Yeah. And we wanna be asking the question, what am I doing? Because that leads to all kinds of other questions. Who am I? Where do I need help? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Doing? What am I doing? Change my life. Thanks, Chip. Thanks, Stephen. See you later. Take care. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast. This is Stephen James, the executive director. I hope that was helpful to you and encouraged you. If you want more information about how Sage Hill can help you, reach out to to us at sagehillcounseling.com or Sage Hill.co, or you could find out more about Chip@ship..com.

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