Marriage: A Bicycle Built for Two?

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey. This is Stephen James. I'm so glad you could join us for this episode of the SAGELL podcast. I've got a good friend of mine today on the podcast with me, Kate Prevost, who is a counselor here at SAGELL Counseling Nashville. And, we're talking about marriage. Interestingly, Kate's been married a few years, I think, three three years now. I got to officiate her wedding, co officiate it with a friend of mine a few years ago. And, I've known Kate since she was a little girl, and I've known her husband, Todd, for, you know, a a good a good amount of time now, probably over ten years. And, they have a really sweet marriage. They've got a little baby. And, and so we we kinda talk about marriage from the from the passion that she has for marriages and, her perspective as a counselor, but also from her experience of being, you know, recently married and my experience of being married for, over twenty five years now. So hope you enjoy the podcast and could find some joy and laughter in the gift of marriage.

Hey, Kate. Hey, Stephen. How are you doing today? Doing well. It's been pretty wild over here. Yeah? House. Yeah. What's been going on at the previous house this morning? Well, I mean, we've survived the stomach bug. Ugh. Stomach bug bad. Second COVID vaccination. That's tough. Did you have bad side effects? The second one. Yeah. Yeah. Headache. Yeah. But now you're COVID proof Yeah. For a while. Yeah. It's it's definitely worth it. It's worth both of those struggles were worth going through because, hopefully, I won't have to deal with them for a long time. And then didn't your your significant other have a a shoulder surgery? Yep. My husband has one arm. Again? He just had one arm, and now he's come back with an Yeah. I was thinking this morning of how that could not happen again. The doctor was telling me they put a rope from the front of the shoulder to the back of the there's an actual string in his arm. So I'm thinking, okay. Well, if this string can't break again

Yeah. That would be ideal. That would be ideal. This aging thing, you're starting to see the the cost of aging. Yeah. 40 years old. So y'all got y'all got it going on. Yeah. We've So We're in we're in the struggle. And we're squeezing in this podcast recording in the middle of a baby nap. Exactly. Yeah. So we're kinda hoping that baby doesn't wake up. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. A lot of hope. Oh, it's so fun. We were Heather and I had a little coffee date this morning in front of the fireplace, and her brother had sent her all of our old Christmas letters. So she was reading our old Christmas letters from when, like, the kids were little, and they would say, like, the craziest things. And then, Claire said, why why why one my finger longer? You know? And then Elijah said, where in the Bible is the Christmas song? And Heather said, it's not in the Bible. That's a great question. Because, well, where where's where's the Toy Story three part? So, like, it's like if you actually are re like, read these quotes, like, that makes so much sense. You know? Yeah. And Great question. Because you watch Toy Story three, it should be in the Bible. Like, it's truth. Yeah. You know? It's, we were we were reminiscing about how sweet things were when they were little and just, like, reflecting on our marriage in some some good ways. I think we spent some time reflecting on our marriage in bad ways. We were actually sitting by the fire, like, reminiscing about the past and dreaming about the future. And, so I remember when we would squeeze in things during naps, like, the holy nap time. This child is gonna stay asleep for, like, ten minutes or thirty minutes or an hour.

And they started giving up naps, and it was like, oh, crap. Yeah. Naps are like this little gift that God gives you when they're so little and need so much attention. Do you take naps? I have the last couple weeks. Yeah. I'm a big napper. I love a nap. Naps. Yeah. I I try to keep them to thirty minutes, though, because then the rest of the day is kinda like you gotta wake up all over again. I have a app, then we'll get into our content about marriage. We're gonna talk about marriage today. But I have an app called PowerNap. And you you set it on your phone for, like, a power nap, a recovery nap, which is, like, longer, and then, like, a super nap or something. Oh, okay. Fifteen minute a power nap. So you can reset everything in, like, fifteen minutes. So and it plays, like, this soothing, like, sound. And you put it in your pocket. And then in fifteen minutes, it just kinda vibrates and wakes you up. It just knows that you're asleep because you're still. So I highly recommend the PowerNap app for those people who power nap? Fifteen minute power nap. Yeah. I took one yesterday in my office. No one knows that, but I just closed the door and closed my eyes and power napped it. Felt great. Yeah. It was good thing we have couches in there. Yes. So we are doing this today, our topic on this H. L. Podcast is we talk about marriage. Right? And we wanna talk about, the bicycle, the tandem bicycle, and the unicycle as a as a model of marriage. And we wanna talk about, marriage as a story, and we wanna really talk about marriage as a mystery. That's a lot to accomplish.

So typical of us to just So typical. Put that in twenty minutes. Yeah. So why don't you start? Let let's let's reflect on our marriages and falling in love with our spouses and this metaphor of we fell in love, we hopped on a tandem bicycle. And we thought it was so sweet and so romantic to ride this tandem bike with each other. Did did you experience that with Todd? Well, I was kinda reflecting on that when you were telling me about the bicycle thing, and I was like, we might have started on a unicycle. Like, we started in the struggle. We started separate. Yeah. And then it's like we slowly began to fall in love with each other. Y'all fiercely fought for your independence and tried to date. Yeah. You're not gonna control me. It's like, I'm trying to date you.

Exactly. We were both judging each other, which kept us knowing each other, which kept us from enjoying each other. So you're trying to avoid each other's so you wouldn't know each other, which kept you from enjoying each other. Yeah. So there we were trying to make, like, unicycles romantic. Which they're not. They're like a circus. No. They're like an adventure. They're like Yeah. Yeah. So then then you got over that and you fell in love? Yeah. I think we like, and and I think that has been the case in our marriage. It's like every time our judgment pops up, it's like, we're being independent again. And then we have to go through this thing again of putting our judgments down to really be curious and genuine with one another to love each other again, to, like, really see each other. And I think that did slowly happen for us.

I well, I've been married twenty five years, and I'm still trying to really see Heather not through my narcissistic lens of how she impacts me, but who she really is for her. Yes. And sometimes I get a glimpse, and I'm and I fall in love all over again. Yes. It's just like a moment. Yeah. And then my narcissism kicks back in, and my ego kicks back in. And I think, what about me? How is this relationship serving me? Yes. It's like The Notebook. Like, she comes out of have you ever seen The Notebook? I have. Hold on. Has Alzheimer's, and she comes out of, like, forgetting. And she remembers who he is. And they have this moment, and they dance, and then she's gone again. Yes. But it that does feel like it. That's marriage, isn't it? It really is. Oh. You're like that, and then you have to remember again.

So I have this metaphor of, like, we fall in love, and we get on this tandem bicycle. And it's this beautiful adventure, and it's so sweet. And we're, like, sharing every moment. And, like, and Love pedaling together. Oh, love pedaling together. It's like and we hit some hills, and it's like, oh, cute little challenge. However fast you wanna go is great, honey. Yeah. Yeah. And then someone starts getting tired of having to lead, or someone gets tired of looking at someone's ass all the time. And so we switch places. We cut a new deal. Right? And then we work that out, and then somebody wrecks the bike. We blame the other person for blowing their weight around too much or, you know, We don't like the way they breathe while they're on a bicycle.

Or sleeping. Oh my gosh. Like, if I have to hear about my breathing one more time, which some people call snoring, I just call it breathing. Yeah. Heavy breathing. Heavy, loud, breathing that that doesn't bother me. I don't know why it bothers everybody else so much, but apparently, it does. It does. It does. It's something. Your husband could snore too, by the way. Yeah. I I literally went home the other night, quit breathing on my face. Oh, the joys of cohabitation. And, and so then, like, we have this breakdown moment with the tandem bicycle. You know? And so the so the solution is not to take our bicycles and go home. Like, I'm gonna get back on my own bike. The solution is to cut the bicycle in half and learn to ride a unicycle, which I think is what turns marriage into being masterful is is we but it's a whole new skill of, like, how do I how do I do me, and how do I let you do you, and how can we coordinate with each other. But but unicycles are much more adaptable. They can go in circles in the same spot. You know, like, they could do some they can coordinate and give give each person more freedom and more creativity in a marriage as opposed to being linked on this tandem bicycle.

Yeah. I know a lot of people that would have a lot of feelings about the unicycle thing. Yeah. Yeah. I bought a unicycle a couple years ago because this is when this metaphor came to yeah. Yeah. I just gave it to Goodwill. But I've become well, it's hard. Yeah. It's I watched YouTube That's why people do it at the circus because it's hard. Why clowns do it at the circus because it's hard. And, but it's it it's hard. And it's hard. But it's you have to, like, swing your arms really big. Yeah. You fall you fall off a lot, which is frustrating. Yeah. It's a different deal. Like, the unicycle's a whole different deal, though it looks a lot like a bicycle. You know? And And so that's kind of been my metaphor for, like, the arc of marriage of, like, I show up knowing how to ride a bike. I have to learn how to ride a tandem bike. And then if I'm gonna be successful in marriage over long term, I've gotta learn how to ride my own ride. Like, who's with this other person? You know? And the only metaphor I'd come up was a unicycle. Right? That as I put

Is the reason you got a unicycle because of this analogy? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. This metaphor came to me, and I was like, I need to get a unicycle. Like, I'm really I had this picture of, like, teaching a marriage workshop or something and then come, like, riding in on a unicycle, and I'll just let that be a picture now. Let the let the metaphor be a metaphor. It's just a metaphor. It doesn't have to Beautiful metaphor. It's just a beautiful metaphor. But what and maybe you've experienced this too. Like, working with couples in these different phases, whether it's, like, engagement or newly married or moving into having kids or moving into, like, post diaper age or moving into, like like, latter school age or adulting kids, which we're doing now, which is, it's the it it's the second hardest thing to maybe the first emotionally, but it's the hardest part of parenting I've encountered outside of, like, diapers and no sleep with multiple children. You know? And then there's, like, this other phase that I hear about and talk to people about with, like, being friends with your adult children, you know, as you kinda get old. So there's all these different phases of marriage, but I think learning to manage myself, take care of my own feelings, needs, desires, longings, hope without putting demand on my spouse to fix my life, to mend my life Mhmm. It has been, one of the most freeing and playful and challenging aspects of being married well. Mhmm. You know? You started a little bit ahead of that. You you got married much healthier than I was when I got married. Like, you had done some of your own work. Yeah. I've waited a while. Yeah. Like, you were, like, middle aged when you got married.

Middle age. Oh, you're not quite middle aged, but you weren't a spring chicken. No. And I had and I knew that I had known things because Todd said them out loud that people don't say in their marriage. Like, I mean, they've ever, but, like, at least ten years in. Like, what did he say to you about you? Thing, like, he will say because he's genuine, he will say the things. Yeah. But just, like, you like, part of the struggle is the wife that I have is not the wife that I want. Ugh. Right? Like, that's the thing. Yeah. It's And he was already saying that. Like, hey. I have all these images of what I thought you would be, and you're not them. And so to hold that in such a small, like, year wise of, like, marriage amount of time wise of or dating. That was luckily, I had done a lot of work. And

And the wife that he wants does not exist. Like, he wants to be married to Jesus with a with a superhero cape and breast. A lot of money. And a lot of money. That's fun, baby. Yeah. Definitely some fake boobs, maybe. Yeah. Like, this this fantasy that doesn't exist. Oh, and you I'm I'm assuming Always gentle, kind, like Amy Grant, like, all the time. He didn't marry always gentle and kind. No. Like, I can be super gentle and kind. Yeah. But, like, also, I could be really tough. Yeah. You can be. Yeah. Yeah. The competitor comes out in you, the the division one athlete. Yeah. Which is awesome. That's a great part of you. It is. So you said that he started even with dating, like, you're not what I really thought I was gonna want. Like, my fantasy. You're not my fantasy. Yeah. But there's also a way that I trust that you're exactly what I need. Mhmm.

Yeah. And he was able to say both. Yeah. And if I woulda just stayed in the first part or got caught up about that being about me, like, that that's about me and something that I need to change or just my insecurities, I would have missed out on the gift that he was giving me Mhmm. By telling the truth From the beginning. Hey. What do you think about this idea? I'm gonna I'm gonna say three or four things, and then you, like, respond. I've come to recognize that it might be really difficult for a person like Heather to be married to a person like me. And I've also couldn't recognize it's really difficult for a person like me to be married to a person like Heather. I've also recognized that it's quite wonderful for a person like Heather to be married to a person like me. And it's so such an incredible blessing for a person like me to be married to a person like Heather.

Beth and All that. Beautiful, all of it. All of it. It, like, it just it gets my heart. Yeah. Like, that's all true. And without all of it, it doesn't feel real. Well, sometimes I don't want real. Sometimes I want I want my fantasy. I want my fantasy. I want my piggy blinders. I want Tommy Shelby. No. I don't want Tommy Shelby to be my husband. No. I but I just want something easy and self serving. Yeah. Easy. Easy. So so let's transition now and go and so we talked about the tricycle or the really tricycle is kinda what I really want. I want a tricycle marriage. A tricycle. It just came out in your subconscious. Yeah. But let's so but let's talk about because we're kinda leaning into it of this narrative arc if if we see our if we see marriage as a story. And and, ultimately, it it's a story that leads us to this thing that that you and I call mystery. But but it starts with, like, bliss, and then immediately we enter struggle. Right? Chaos happens, and there's tragedy and heartbreak and disappointment. And it sounds like that happened for you and your dating process.

Happened pretty immediately. Yeah. I think I was so immature because I was 22 when I got married. I was so immature and had so little of myself that I just, I I it took me a while to, like, really even learn how to tell the truth about For sure. About how, like, what a marriage could be. You know? Yeah. Like, I was I was so invested in trying to live the fantasy of what I thought a marriage was supposed to be that I've missed missed out what on what a marriage could be. And that struggle, I think, like, with when you see couples or working with somebody individually as a counselor and they're talking about marriage, like, what are you thinking about as a as a counselor?

Oh, the first thing that comes up with me is, like, you're you are your biggest problem. That's what I'm thinking of. You are your biggest problem in your marriage. So to help them to sort through the mess that's trying to point the finger and and make so many other things their problem Because they could be fighting about, like, the good. So about half the people listening to this podcast just stopped listening to it right now. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to hear. Because I want to make in my marriage that's Stephen's marriage. Because Heather's in a marriage. That's Heather's marriage. Like, there's, like, three marriages going on. There's my marriage. There's her marriage, and there's our marriage. Yeah. But in my marriage, I'm my biggest problem is what you just said.

Yeah. Now I'm thinking that. I'm not saying that to the couple yet. No. No. You're thinking that. I'm taking it personally. I'm taking that very personally right now. So I agree with you, and I'm thinking that too. It's like, how do I how can I help this person or these people come to understand that, they are their biggest problem, not their spouse? Yeah. Because there really is freedom as much as we resist that being the answer. Because I want my spouse to be my savior for my life, like, to rescue me from my life. To fix it. Fix my wounds, to to fix the thing that my parents couldn't do. Make up for where God falls short. Yeah. Because God really under delivers, in my opinion. Yeah. He lets us suffer. He seems to appreciate suffering as a and loss as, like, normal.

Yeah. I mean, I was over the toilet this weekend, and I was like, why? He's just gonna let this happen. He's okay with it. Oh, gosh. And so people come into marriage looking and help marriage counseling, typically. And and they don't sometimes they say it, but they often imply it. If you could make jerkwad over here, asshole over here change, then I'd be happier. And you're sitting there thinking, man, how do I help these people see that their biggest problem in their marriage is them? Yeah. Like, have a moment, like, what you're saying earlier from the notebook. Like, even if it's just a moment in my office where they can see Yeah. That they are they're the problem. If they can hold their feelings about what they can't get and their feelings about what they can get Inside themselves without putting it on their spouse, that there's actually this space that can be present in between the two of them for something to happen.

What can happen? That's the thing. It's like, that's where the mystery begins. Okay. So what you just said, so if if we will let go of our romantic demands that it's my spouse's job to make my life work. Man, our romantic demands. Yeah. Then I can then I can possibly lay claim to there's a log in my eye and a speck of dirt in their eye that my biggest problem is me. And then I can, through my clouded vision, actually get a glimpse of who they really are. Yeah. And appreciate them for the mystery that they are, like, this thing that I'll I can experience but never fully understand. Then I could be happily married. Something's hesitant in in me to say happily married. Then I could be more married. More married. Yeah. I could fullness. There could be a fullness in your marriage.

Heather was so sweet to me this morning. I was like, I asked her on this coffee date. And That's so sweet, by the way. It was I thought it was sweet. Romantic. I thought and she she met me. She said yes. And so I made us I made me some coffee and her some tea, and I started a fire. And we sat there and talked. And she was so present. And I was I was already on, like, okay. What are these 10 things I have to do today? What are the three things I gotta do so I can do the 10 things? She was so sweet to, be with me even though I wasn't there. Yeah. Patience. She's just just talking and remembering and thinking and dreaming. Yeah. Being her. She's being her. And I was

I was riding her unicycle. She was just riding her unicycle. Just really cute in her robe, drinking her tea. You know? It's so cute. It was so sweet. And she was so kind to me to let me not be fully present and not I could feel the blessing of her not judging me for me not being present. Mhmm. You know? But really, letting the moment be the moment and not demanding of me to be. So I could feel the that's really love. Like, she wasn't demanding I be different. Yeah. She's meeting me where I was, and appreciating me. And appreciating her. It was really sweet. And and the, like, contempt for what you couldn't bring didn't cloud what the morning could be. Yeah. Well, I hate contempt. We do talk about contempt. That's a marriage killer. Contempt is the thing and John Dotman's research says that the number one thing that kills relationship is contempt. Yeah. I believe it. And you and I know that contempt is about shame. And so another way of saying contempt kills marriage is my demand that my spouse fix my shame and make me feel better about me is the same that they can't. Oh, the hatred that they can't. Yeah. Yeah. So that leads to this mystery thing. And you taught me something really special about mystery a couple weeks ago that has, it's been it's been a really I didn't know this. I thought I knew a lot of things, but I didn't know this.

Me neither. And it it it has rattled my cage in such a good way. Will you share what it is? Because I think it directly applies to marriage. Like, will you talk Yeah. Will you share this thing about mystery? Yeah. So, was taking a bible study, and they're talking about the Israelites walking through the desert and the manna coming down that God would give to the Israelites every day. And the manna, the word in Hebrew actually means mystery. So the Israelites were actually eating mystery. They knew where it was from. They knew it was from the hand of God, But they what it means what the actual Hebrew means is what is it? So so for people that might not know what you just said, let's talk about. It. So

That's fair. So that, like, the Hebrews, the Jewish nation had been in slavery by by Egypt, and they were slaves. And they had they had worked their freedom out. They cut a deal. Let my people free. Yeah. So thank you. Is it let my people go? Sure. Let but I think it probably was let my people free. I love that. Thank you. And so they they got freedom, but they ended up in the desert. They ended up wandering in the desert. Them to the desert. And then they complained as humans are apt to do. They got their freedom, and they complained about it. Because they thought they were going to the promised land. Well, they were, But it just it wasn't on their timetable. It's a Yeah. So there was this real spirit this is so much about marriage. Right? It's like, I thought it was gonna be one way. I got this thing I wanted, and now I have to unlearn all my expectations. Mhmm. And in my complaint, like, they complained, and they wanted some water. So they found some water. God gave them water. And they wanted some food. They don't wanna have to, like, work hard for their food. And so God said, great. Every morning you wake up, the dew will fall, and there'll be this these magic wafers, like magic bread, on all the grass, and you just eat it. That was called manna. But you and you're in this bible study is you're trying to understand the bible through a non Western lens. Yeah. Right? Like, really understand an eastern lens, like, where it was written. So taking taking America out of the bible and reading the bible for the Bible, which is really hard to do. Mhmm. Impossible. I would love to do a podcast about it's podcast about that. But Yeah. Maybe we will. But but I think we'll then that the other half that already turned us off, the will turn the food that listed will then turn us off. Yeah. Let's not talk about that yet. It's so so they were eating this thing called What Is It?

What Is It? So God sustained the Jews as they were wandering through the desert on mystery. The thing they fed them on was mystery. Mhmm. And their curiosity. So every day had to they had to wake up and be curious about what in the world is this? Yeah. Like, what do we do now? What what what do we do now? Will this really feed me today? Is this it? Is this it? I want a turkey. I want some meat, And you're giving me a magic wafer. Yeah. You made a dude. Save me? God. Is that not marriage? And they can't, like, we can't go back. We can try to go back. In slavery. Go back to Egypt. Yeah. Well, I don't I mean, so many people now have been doing this work for twenty something years now. I've encountered so many people who have this fantasy. If I could just marry somebody different You know, then I wouldn't have my problems. Right. And there are some marriages that that sadly end and and actually need to end, sadly. But it doesn't change the person's problems with their own problem. Mhmm. Right? And in their next relationship, they have their own problems still.

Yeah. And they're attracted to the same type of person that creates the same kind of problem. No one wants to hear that. Because you just took away the fan yeah. If I if I was if I was married to somebody different, then I'd be happier, and then I wouldn't have my problems. Dang. So there you are. Like, you just go back to Egypt and be a slave again. Be a slave to my own problems again. Or Or Live in the mystery, hoping for the promised land, wondering, being curious about what is this? What's gonna happen? Is this today? What is the stomach bug for me? What is this? What is this man with one arm who probably hadn't showered in a couple of days walking through my house about? Like, this is it? This is your big plan for me, God? It's like this?

Yeah. Like, is this is this the enemy? That's what I find myself wondering. Like, is someone trying to take me down? Well, let you know, It's a Wonderful Life when, main character, which one of name? George? No. George. George was George? George? George. Right? What's his last name? Hatch. No. That was Mary Hatch. Married. Oh my gosh. I'm so mad at this. Wife. Right? That was his wife. But it was George and Mary. I'm not sure it was George. Well, anyway, he comes home, and he says, why do we have to have all these kids? Mary? Mary was her name. Mary. Mary was her name. Zuzu was the daughter. Right? And then he and then he had the the angel, Clarence. Clarence. And and then but I forget his name. That's not the point. The point is he came home and one night, and his worst day, he's having this terrible day, and his wife, like, did you get the Merry Christmas wreath? He's like, yeah. I got the Merry Christmas wreath. He's like, why do we have to have all these kids? His daughter's like, you know, daddy, help me with this word, and let me play this song for you. They're just so happy and excited kids. Being kids. And he's like, I had this fantasy that if he could build skyscrapers and all this stuff, his life would be fuller. And what he found out was that being loved and being known and the struggles of life is what made his life full. And that was a really wonderful life. George.

Really wonderful life after all. Other people's life around him. Well You know the fun part about right now? You and I literally cannot remember this person's last name. And there are people in their car It's like yelling at it. Screaming screaming the name. And we're gonna get blah blah. We're gonna get text and emails in a in a week or so when this comes out. Like, it was this how did you not know this thing? I could think George Clooney, but it wasn't George Clooney. That's the name that keeps going to me. George Clooney. But isn't he good looking, George Clooney? George Clooney. And he's still good looking. Yeah. He's he's had a lot of work done. He's had a lot of yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Hey. I'm fine. He had a really good foundation to start with. You know? He did. He had a nice palette. Yeah. If they were to remake It's a Wonderful Life, George Clooney would be a really good lead.

He what? So, you've got a marriage workshop coming up. I do. And so you've got what's the plan for this marriage workshop? Like, it's not it's not like a long term marriage workshop. It's not like an event. It's like a process. Right? Right. Because there's six meetings. Okay. They'll happen once a month on Sundays from one to five. And that's gonna be in person? It's gonna be in person. But we'll you'll find a way to make that COVID safe and COVID friendly? Keep our distance. So for six months, once a month, you're having couples meet here in Nashville. Yeah. We'll meet together. They'll be teaching, and then there'll be time separate with just your couple or your spouse. And, because that's a whole other workshop. It's your couple marriage workshop.

That's different. We don't support that. That's actually chill. I think group time. So they'll come and they'll be you'll teach, and you'll be talking about marriage. And how long is it on a Sunday? It's four hours. So it'll be one to five. So that's, like, once a month, deeply invest in your relationship. A big chunk of that is, like, scripted one on one time with your spouse, like, conversations and things you're gonna have in a supportive environment. That's what an awesome gift to give to your marriage. Yeah. And the fact that it's over time to give you space to actually, like Work on these things. Curious about what is what is going on, and how does this how does this take root in your marriage, and how does this show up? Man,

that's all I think I might could Heather and I do it? Yeah. Actually, you can. Okay. I might talk to Heather about, hey. Will you do this thing with me and Kate? Well, I'm not teaching. Kate's teaching it. But, like, can we do Kate's marriage workshop? Yes. Marriage marriage experience? I think it's an experience. Yeah. It'll be an experience. Very experiential. What are you calling it? The marriage workshop. Mystery of marriage. The mystery of marriage experience. That sounds so much better than the marriage workshop. Okay. The mystery of marriage experience. A six mystery of marriage. Experience the mystery of marriage experience with George Clooney. That starts with dollars off if you remember George's last name. When does that start? Starts March. The first Sunday of March.

And it's okay. First Sunday of March. And does it meet, like, the first Sunday? Is that kinda the month. So the first Sunday of the month will meet. And people can find out more on the Satchel website, satchel.co, satchelcounseling.com. And that's really cool. How much does it cost? It's $1,600 per couple. Okay. So you divide that out by four or six. Right. And it's it's a few $100 a month for this so it's cheaper than marriage counseling. That's awesome. And it's probably more fun because they get to laugh and Be with other couples. Yeah. Be with other couples with yeah. And we've got filters and COVID filters and mask and all that stuff, so we will make it as COVID friendly as possible and protective and because we don't want a super spreader event at CHL counseling.

No. Not good for promo. Well, I know, love, you'll be waking up soon. So, Kate, thank you for spending time doing this this morning. Yes. Thanks for having me. I hope you had a good day. It's I've I've act I'm actually leaving with even more appreciation for my wife and for my marriage. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Man, that was fun. Thank you for listening to the Sage Hill podcast. If you want to know more about Kate's marriage workshop, Marriage Mystery Experience, which sounds like a bad album title, you can go to Sage Hill.co or sagehillcounseling.com and find out more and register, or you can email Kate at kateprivost@sagehillcounseling.com. That's coming up this March and will take place, over six months. That sounds like a really rich experience. If you if you need help, in your marriage or helping you be you in your marriage individually, please reach out to Sage Hill Counseling. We're glad. We're here to help. We've got offices in Nashville and Murfreesboro, and we have connections with counselors all over the country that we're glad to refer you to. So thanks for listening, and be well and keep heart.

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