Finding Heart Through Tough Times

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey, everybody. This is Stephen James, executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Got a great friend on the podcast today, Stephanie Bessent, who runs a, a coaching practice in Kansas City or, Lawrence, Kansas, actually, where she meets with women and couples and men and and helps them live fully and has kind of taken the spiritual root system and, done a lot of training with us here at Sage Hill and has, kind of opened her own little outpost of care. Specifically, there's a lot of help with women who've experienced infidelity, and, felt betrayal. And so we talk about that a little bit today. And, also, she paints this beautiful picture of what of how to hope, how to live in hope. So I hope you enjoy the podcast. If you wanna find out more about Stephanie, you can go to b-scent.com and, find out more about what she's doing. So enjoy the podcast. Hey, Stephanie.

Hi, Stephen. How are you doing? I'm doing alright. How are you? Oh, I'm so excited to be doing this, podcast with you. This is, it's it's fun to have, a friend and colleague that I don't see get to see every day. So I get to see you and record this with you, and we get to connect. And so that's fun for me. I enjoy it. I, like, I am absolutely thrilled to be seeing you through Zoom and interacting with you in this level and do some of the things that you've taught me how to do Yeah. To be able to share about it. Do you hate Zoom as much as I do, or are you okay with it? You know, it has its place. It has its place in the sense where I I can't stand Zoom. I'd much rather be in your office with you doing this live. And I also know that I can't be there. I can't I can't be there Yeah. And so there's a place for it.

Wow. You're much more tolerant and inclusive than I am. That's good. I wanted I want you to on I wanted you on the Sage Hill podcast for a couple of reasons. One, I've I've known you for how long have we known each other now? About nine years. About nine years. Okay. I've known you so let's just call it ten. Let's say about ten years. Almost a decade. Let's just put it this way. I've known you I've known of you for a while. I didn't actually get to meet you. Okay. And I was I was scared. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm I'm much softer and nicer than people think, though. Isn't that true? I would absolutely agree with that. Yeah. I have this blind spot because I think I'm just like, I know I can be ragey and anxious and scared, and my expectations are very high. Like, I know that. But that people perceive me as, like, hard to deal with, I'm this giant blind spot around because I think I'm just a swell guy.

Well and I don't think it was about you. I was getting your perspective from somebody else that had their own things going on. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's good. So we've known each other about ten years. In a minute, I'm gonna ask you. So kind of I wanna you to introduce yourself. Well, I'm gonna introduce you, but I want you to introduce yourself more. And I wanna talk about the work you do professionally and and how you work with women, specifically women who've experienced infidelity and how you've developed an expertise in helping them navigate healing and recovery and their own heart and stuff. And then I wanna end the podcast with you kind of, like, what's the big hope that you that you have for people? So, you know, I've gotten to know you over the last several years, like, most deeply in you going through Sage Hill training and being a part of our our training process where we train people helpers, professional people helpers.

And when you started going through it, you were running a dental practice, weren't you? Yeah. I was managing a dental office. I've been in a in the in the dental field, virtually was born into it because my dad was a dentist. And then I because of life situations and circumstances, I was thrust into I was an office manager of a dental office and had been for, fifteen years. And then now you're not. Now you have a nonprofit, like, coaching, counseling esque, like, life change practice that you do where you you work with people one on one, I guess, as couples too and different different I you have to tell me what you do specifically. Tell them, like but you help people, like, regain their heart, be themselves,

live fully in life. Right? Yeah. Absolutely. I you know, when I started this journey, like, nine years ago, it so altered everything for me. It taught me how to connect with my heart. And then and that sounds really weird for people who aren't familiar with this. I just knew I was missing something. And I also felt like life was speeding up, and I was getting more demanding and wanting people to show up a certain way, and it wasn't working. And I left when I after I was introduced this and had been in it a while, and I was already had a life coaching certification. I knew and I had said to, actually, to Chip that this is what I wanted to do the rest of my life. Mhmm. That's before you guys had trainings, and that's before there was, like, a podcast or a blog or a it was really coming to reunion and, transcribing your guys' talks.

Yeah. You know, it's kinda where things begin. Are you yeah. So when you say reunion, you mean the CPE reunions? CPE reunions. Yeah. So you got you got introduced to this not professionally first. You got kinda I like this I was we're getting ready for this call, and I said you kinda got dragged into this. I did. I did. I got dragged into it, and I viewed it as the other person had a problem. Okay. And he had a problem. If he got better, life would be good. And this other person was Tony, your husband. Yes. Yeah. So if Tony could get better, your life would be good. Uh-huh. And what I learned and, thankfully, was willing was that when he went, I didn't know, but I was going to be getting weekly help myself. And I was willing to go I was willing to go all in. You know, it's like, I knew that we had one shot of getting help is how I looked at it. The one shot of getting of making this work. And a part of who I am, I do do things all in, and so I went all in. And I'm so thankful. And I'm so glad that during that period of time that Sage Hill and was able to help me kindly and pretty quickly look at some of my own stuff.

Yeah. So long story short, your husband chose to go treatment. Uh-huh. Like, chose chose to get help for a problem. And you found out you had to do weekly calls with Miriam and Phil and Chip and, like, you like, the part of his treatment was you getting some help. Yes. And I didn't have the I did not have the wherewithal at the time. You know, it's like pretend every I lived in the world to pretend everything's okay. I don't even know if Miriam knows. The first call that she and I had, I was in bed sick, and I didn't tell her I was sick. I didn't tell her I was in bed. I didn't tell her anything. I just knew I needed to show up for a phone call and pretend everything was okay.

So do you so ten years ago, you were living pretend everything is okay, control everything, make everybody perform the right way. Okay. And be terrified and not have words for it. And be scared all the time and not did you know you were scared? I didn't know I was scared. Nobody and, definitely, nobody else knew I was scared. Yeah. Yeah. So it would have been worse for it. It was just, like, disconnected from your own heart. Like I I I realize that now. Like, the most the most traumatic event had happened in our life or in my life is the way that I saw it. And all I knew was something needed to be done. Yeah. That was about it. And And if you say go all in, I'll go all in. Yep. Yeah. So It's the athlete in you. Yes. That's like yeah. Yeah, you're also, like, a world class racquetball player.

Yeah. I I played professional racquetball for nine years. Not many people can say that. No. That I mean, that's it's true. I mean, it's so hard. It's gosh, Stephen. You know? Yes. I was a professional racquetball player for nine years. I was a junior Olympic coach. I was on the, you know, national board. I was commissioner for the, you know, women's professional association for a while. But, you know, it kind of a lot of like, a lot of things. Like, I go in and I keep digging and I enjoy it. You know? And at the time and at the time, different than this, at that time, I was living in a place where my acceptance was based upon how well I was doing. So I better show up at the next thing and do really well, you know, in order to be accepted by whatever group of people.

And even if I'm not doing well, pretend like I'm doing well. Uh-huh. And I lie to myself about how well I'm doing. Yes. And keep that image up. And so tragedy happened, and I bring that same image into the tragedy that happened, and everything's going okay. Okay. So how did you get from being on a call with the with your husband's treatment center and pretending like you are fine. Because, no spouse is fine when their spouse goes to treatment. Right? Or when their spouse enters a 12 step program, like, there's a consistent thing that it's like, you know, if you'll if you'll just get fixed, I'll be better. Like, you're the problem, asshole. And there's some truth in that. Like, if he gets healthier, then the marriage will probably get better.

Possibly. Possibly. That's not the whole truth. You know, but if I look at like, there becomes a point in time that a spouse needs to look at their own stuff. Otherwise, if there's any problem, even without treatment, you know, the the the outward focus keeps things distorted. Did you ever think what's wrong with me that I'd be married to some buffoon like this? I thought That's a subtle question. I what I thought what what I thought was, man, you gotta sleep in the bed that you made. Wow. That's tough. And and so you're gonna figure out how to do this. If you have nails in your cereal bowl, you just gotta chew. And I probably would. You probably would. Right? Yeah. So how did you get from pretending like being sick in bed, being sick in the head, sick in bed, pretending like you weren't sick, talking to your husband's treatment center's family counselor, to being a leader of women who helped them navigate, like, the stormy waters of I just found out my husband's having an affair, or I just found out my husband's a sex addict, or I just found out that my husband doesn't want doesn't wanna be married to me anymore, or I just found out like, how did you get there?

You know, I I think a portion of it for me like, there was a part of it when it started making more sense, because I ended up coming later that year for three weeks, the three week women's thing, where I looked at my own stuff. And when it really clicked and made sense with me, we were doing some stuff. Phil was doing some some psychodrama stuff with us. You know? And he told me if I continued on the road that I was on, my kids would know me as competent, but they'd never know my heart. Oh, gosh. Never untruth. Yes. And he played like, we played that whole thing out, and I could see myself. And it was so scary Yeah. To see how disconnected I was and how I, in some regards, was doing great. Like, everybody thought I was doing everybody that I that I portrayed myself to the world thought I was doing great. And there was something in me that was like, this is not working. And I think, you know, when there became a point in time different points of time that people were able to, like, slowly hold up a mirror in front of me, you know, kindly to show me what what I was like, that I was like, I see how that's not working. And so, you know, in my own recovery of my story to just you know, it started off just being with other women that were kind of struggling with the same thing, sharing the truth of where I was, sharing the truth of how scary life is, not just in marriage, you know, but just life. And then it was like, oh, this is how relationships intended to be, the vulnerability, the showing up in the fear, the hurt, and the sadness to show up in different things. And then all of a sudden, it was like, oh, I'm a little bit further down the path. And and it's like and there's people that aren't as far along in the path. So you share experience, strength, and hope with them. Or I share, like, hey. This is what it was like for me. And all of a sudden, they don't feel so alone, and they're nodding their head. And then, you know, I just continued on down the path a little further, and, thankfully, Sage Hill did training to to people who weren't counselors or therapists. And somewhere along the way, I had gotten this life coaching certification years ago, and I just kept showing up because, had understanding, that I also realized that this wasn't just about, you know, affairs or betrayal. Like, people have got woundedness and brokenness all around. And so it's just like, hey. Where did tragedy happen in your life? Mhmm. And let's talk about that. And, like, let's go back and, like, see where you left yourself and, you know, how you needed to be seen then and different feelings and talk about that. And let's connect. And, like, let's keep going on the journey and see where it leads.

It's like, let's embrace I don't know where this is going, but my experience has been it's going somewhere good. So if you want if you want someone to go with you, I'll go with you. Yeah. That's awesome. It's well and the thing is is, like, one of the best things that you taught me, Stephen you know, keep in mind, I was a certified life coach and a certified life coach. Life coaching takes, here's your goal. You are really I mean, reinforces you're really based upon how well you're doing at your goal. Right. And you told me to go towards the scent and the taste of what my heart is drawn to, what God has called me to. Yeah. I remember that. Going. And doors will be open which did not exist. And I was like, oh, that makes a ton of sense. Let's just do that. Let's I'll just keep moving that. The unseen signs. Yeah. Follow the steps. Keep moving that direction and see what happens. Yeah. And that has allowed me to tell that to other people.

That's faithfulness. Like, you've been faithful to yourself and to so we're early on, like, when the wheels are coming off and you're still trying to act like they're not coming off, did you think, like, if I just have a better wife, then my husband will not have to be not have to be an addict? Did you ever think that? Period of time that I had to, that I I needed to learn that this wasn't about me. Like It is addiction, not about you. It was not about me. That there was not, you know, that this wasn't about me. It wasn't about me, shaming myself because, you know, I was naggy or I was controlling or I was judgmental. If I had only done this, if I had only done fill in the blank, then we wouldn't be here. And for me to recognize that was how scared I was and how much I wanted to control outcome, Like, it feels way better if somebody would give me an equation to work and say Yeah. Well, here's how you be a a good Christian mom and a good Christian wife. You do these things, and you'll have a perfect marriage and a perfect 31 woman. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And I worked my rear off to do that, and it didn't work. Yeah. You know? And and when I got to the point where I was like, oh, well, let's just be let's let's look at the fact that you don't have control of the outcome and have a have a willingness to be in the process and a willingness to surrender. And it's like, I don't know what the future holds. But I know that for today like, it's like today and today. Today in the beginning was like, today, I know I'm married. I don't have control over tomorrow. And I also trusted that if I was supposed to take a different route, that God would let me know that. But for today, I was staying.

You know? How did you like, for a lot of us, when the when the when life happened when tragedy happens or our our hard work stops paying off or our best thinking, right, shows to be crazy, or, the person we thought that was gonna always be there for us isn't there for us, or the our kid gets the diagnosis or the thing that we were afraid that they were gonna get, right, or the thing happens that we've gotten control of. A lot of us, when when tragedy happens, either turn towards hating ourselves more or hating the other person more. Like, we go in our in shame, we turn towards contempt. Right? I have contempt for myself or contempt for another person or contempt for God. You talk about, like, in the midst of this, like, God you didn't have contempt for God. Oh, I did at one point. How'd you oh, you did? You did?

Yeah. Yeah. Like Oh, good. Because I was like, dang. Like, Stephanie's got it all together. I was no. I became there be there was a period of time because I I had a deep Christian faith walking into this, and I do now, but there is a period of time that I was, I became apathetic toward well, I I was mad at god, and then I kinda stiff armed him. And then I became, like, the, teenage girl that was like, turn my back. You're not there. You know? And Yeah. It started changing one one when I raged at him, like, you know, turned and faced him and raged at him. And then I started talking about my loneliness with him. Like, really turning to god is like, I I miss you. Like, I miss our relationship. And it's like and I need you know, I go back to where we began. It's like, I need to know you're here again. Like, I know that like and that's like, goes into a whole different realm, but I needed to work through that too. And contempt for myself and contempt for Tony and contempt for other people. Yeah. Like, that's all been a process. It's not like, okay. We just did this, this, and this, and everything was all better. No. We we are almost exactly at nine years of when I discovery happened. And I know two days ago, I sent Tony a message, and it's like, I'm so thankful that where we are today is not where we were nine years ago. We are better today than we have ever been. I am so thankful that, and I know that without this, we would not be there.

And So it'll it'll yeah. Go ahead. And I'm also sad that that's part of our story. So you're you're in a place you'd never thought you could be with your husband. Like, you couldn't even envision where y'all are today. It wasn't even part of your repertoire of dreams. Absolutely. And the price of admission was something you didn't wanna pay. Yeah. Like, he's like and and it doesn't always work for people. Like, there's a lot of people who've gone through tragedy and have earnestly tried, like, to walk the path that you're walking, and their life doesn't get much better. So it's not like a proverb. They're like, if you do if you do a, you do b, then you get c. And but without doing what you're doing, there's no chance that life gets better.

There's no chance that life gets better without doing it. And I'd also say that there's more life to be had regardless of whether that relationship works. Like, I think that one of the things that breaks my heart about some some people is, like, they are, like, either this works or my life's over. And it's and they're outward focused on their spouse that if they get better, my life will get better. And it's like, no. Plea please don't stop. Please don't Yeah. Please keep So if my kid can get better, then I'll get better. Yes. Please stay in the process. And, yes, and there's a place where you've got you're gonna have to grieve your guts out that it didn't work out the way you wanted it to. But stay in because there's gonna be beauty. Mhmm. There's gonna be good things to come if you stay in. But if you resign out of life, there's nothing good that's gonna come.

So when so you're in Lawrence, Kansas. Right? Yes. Which is outside of Kansas City? It's about forty five minutes west of Kansas City. Yes. Okay. Is that the next closest town, like, the biggest town? It's in between yeah. It's in between Topeka and Kansas City. You can go either way. You go to Topeka. And for a Tennessee boy, that's like living between Nashville and Memphis. Like, I like, I've been to Kansas City, but I've not really been to Kansas City. Like so I've never been to Lawrence. Is it like Nashville? What's it like? What's Lawrence like? Do you know this is gonna be just a a kind of lame answer? I mean, it's it's a university university town, small smallish, you know, bedroom community type feeling to it. But I would say it's it's it's just like a lot of places where if you do depth of relationship with people that you're you can be known and have heart and show up in. It's not my favorite place. It really isn't.

You know? But Who's your favorite place? Temperature wise, it would be Mexico. Mexico. Okay. If I could take the people that I love and I like to do relationship with, I'd like to go, down down to Mexico. Like, on the coast? More like, Playa Del Carmen area. Okay. I don't know Mexico. I know I know Mexico less less well than I know Kansas. Huge. Reason about you said something really wise. You said, look. Wherever you are, like, if you dig in and look for heart, there are people there to find, to do heart with, to do life with. They might not be in the you didn't say this. I'm gonna add this. They might not be in the places you wanna go, but they're there. Yeah. You know? Yeah. They might not be in the comfortable, shiny places or the well the well groomed places or the,

It and be willing to be surprised. You know? Like So when a woman call sorry. I gotta interrupt you. I wanna ask you this question. I'm gonna interrupt you. When a woman calls you, how how do people find you? They just, like, hear about you, like like, through the through the food chain of, like like, asking, I need help. Yeah. Sometimes. You know? And and and I'm working with all kinds of people now, Stephen. Like, so this ends up being a a small a small, amount of people that I work with or the ladies that we're talking about. But people find me through connection. I just really I mean, it just really is a bit of a trust journey. I just keep showing up, and people keep showing up, and I keep doing what I'm doing. I didn't know where this was gonna go.

And and you and you what do you do? Explain again what so people call you and they're they're need help. Yeah. So people call me and they need help. And, generally, the first conversation I have with them is just kind of exploring where where they are. I tell them a little bit about what I do, and then we kinda go like, hey. Do we have a fit here where you think that I can be a help to you? And, and I think that you're a fit that I can I can help you? You know? And then let's sit down, you know, let's sit down and meet. I prefer meeting with people on a weekly basis. You know? And since I I I am a not not for profit organization, I see all kinds of people, and there's a sliding fee scale. You know? And and and it's working. You know? I I know I'm acting a little surprised because I just I know. I show up and I do it.

Yeah. You show up, like so this feel your feelings, tell the truth, trust the process. Like, that's like a Sage Hill thing. Yes. That ship coin ship coin this phrase. And so you just told the whole story of, like, look. Almost nine years ago to the day, I wasn't feeling my feelings. I wasn't telling the truth. I didn't trust no damn process. I trusted I trusted my thinking, my willpower, my control. You know? And then I, found out my husband I wasn't controlling him as much as I thought I was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah? And your life got out of control. Yeah. And you have slowly, over the last nine years, moved from trying to control what's not controllable, life, learning to feel your feelings about it, tell your true tell the truth about it to yourself, others, and even God, like, raging at God at times and turning your back on God and turn your like, just living out loud with other people. And that process has brought you to just showing up every day. And if somebody calls you, you want to help, you're like, hey. I'm here. Yeah. And and you don't have to run a dental practice anymore.

Oh my gosh. And I there's not one day that I look back and go, gosh. I really wish I was at that dental practice. Yeah. No. And the thing is, it's like and it's not like I'm sitting by the phone waiting for it to ring either. You know? I'm I'm seeing people as like, you know, Phil and I just got done with a workshop. Yeah. We were asked, when are you gonna do another one? Phil and I kinda looked at each other. It's like, when are we doing another one? Okay. Let's do another one. Yeah. You know? Because what what I do know is everybody has a story and everybody has brokenness. And it's like, hey. Let's step into vulnerability. Let's step into feel your feelings. Tell the truth. Trust the process. Mhmm. Like, there's more to life. Let's do this. You know? And if you if somebody's got a willingness to look at their their story, and it's like, oh, here's redemption over here.

Here's how you can make meaning of the different things that happen in your life, and you got more life to come yet. So let's let's go. God. That's so hopeful. Talk about that for just a second. Like, there's more you said a while ago. There's more life to come, and it's gonna be beautiful. Yeah. Like like, are you sure? Yeah. Like, I I believe that, and it's so scary. And it sucks too. Right? Because we know I also know it's like, you know, the other Sage Hill thing that they talk about is, like, you know, is, like, in feeling your feelings, telling the truth, and trusting the process is, like, you know, life is tragic and god is faithful. You know? And we're gonna live life from one to 10.

Yeah. Which means god is doing something. Doesn't mean god is gentle. But it's like but it's like in all of those feelings, we're gonna celebrate really well, and we're gonna grieve really well. And, like So I was on I was on a hike this morning with a friend, and this, owl flew across our path and just through the trees, like, probably 15 feet ahead front of us and landed on this branch. And it turned back and looked at us over its shoulder. And it was this feeling of, like, it's giving us permission to walk in his woods. Right? So regard. Yeah. Yeah. It was so beautiful. Like, it was like that's what to me, that's probably, wish I even had I have more feelings about it now than I did walking with my friend. But it was like, that's kind of the it's the ordinary beauty of, like, having your heart and living life out loud with people and yourself as you get to see that.

Yes. Am am I in life? Like, life is found in the journey. Like, if you're in if you're present and you're in the journey, then you're experiencing life. Otherwise, the other options to me is, like, resignation of heart, avoidance of pain, can try to control things, you know, to be okay. Yeah. It's like, no. No. No. No. Like, good things are gonna happen, and I don't even wanna do good or bad. It's like hard things are gonna happen. And beautiful things happen. Things are gonna happen. And, like, you're gonna like, we're gonna experience them all those. And we can do this together too, the beauty of it. We're gonna do this in, like, relationship and community, and it's gonna be really, really sucky painful at times, and we're gonna celebrate really well at times too. But you gotta be in it. If not, like, you know, here's your other option.

Stay numb. Stay numb. Try and control things, and that doesn't work. Get all ragey. And Well, I think if you put your kids in the right school, it does work. I'm just joking. I'm sarcastic. Hey, Stephanie. Thank you thank you so much. If someone wanted to connect with you, I assume you do Zoom calls and that kind of stuff too. Somebody who heard this podcast wanted to connect with you. How do they find out about you? Yeah. So the easiest way to find me as my website is b-sent.com. K. Would be the easiest way to to track me down and got phone number and and that email address to connect if they want to. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. I miss seeing you. I cannot wait. It's I'm planning a little bit of a maybe a road trip adventure again this summer, so I might be coming back to Kansas. And I will leave time this time to stop and say hi. I would leave. Bad last summer. I I was I didn't leave time for that. So,

I would absolutely love that. And so then you can say that you've been in the journey in large Kansas. In large Kansas. I did go to a Kansas City Royals game last year, and it was like watching a baseball game on the surface of the sun. Like, I thought Nashville weather was humid and hot. I don't know how y'all do it up there and have your cold winters too. So, good luck with that. You just kinda keep go like, I don't have any that's one of those other things I don't have control over, Stephen. So this will come out after the Super Bowl, this podcast. But are I'm assuming you're cheering for the Chiefs this weekend. What's your prediction? What's the score? I don't even have a score prediction. I have I'm my Come on. This is this is so lame, Stephen. Like, even though I was a professional athlete, like, I it's like, I'm gonna watch the game. I'm gonna enjoy the game. I absolutely want the Chiefs to win. But you know what? I'm gonna have fun. I'm gonna be with people regardless, and so it's okay whatever the outcome is. That's good. Well, I want the Chiefs to win because I can't I'm gonna predict

thirty four thirty four thirty one Chiefs, and Tom Brady gets a concussion and never plays football again. I can hope. So we'll see if I'm right, but I'm I want Kansas City to win because I just think it's fun for Tom Brady to lose. So that that's not even really kind, but that's where I am today. Well, I'm glad that that you're rolling with the Chiefs. Alright. I'll talk to you soon, Stephanie. Be well. Alright. Alright. Take care, Stephen. Thank you. Hey, guys. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast. I I love Stephanie. She's such a brave, clear, loving, wise, passionate woman, and I hope you found that encouraging. If if you wanna reach out to her, I encourage you to. If you need help, Seychell's here. We're here to help. That's our motto. So keep heart. Thanks for listening.

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