The Role of Trauma in Shaping Our Lives

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey, Kate. Hey, Stephen. How you doing? Good. Oh, I'm I'm so glad that you are doing the Satchel podcast again. I'm glad to be back on. What are you glad about? I am glad, really, just to chat with you. It's fun. Thank you. Me too. I like I like talking to people that I know and trust and that know and trust me. It feels good. It feels safe. It feels, like I'm free to be playful. And because I know I know where to joke with you, and I won't accidentally hurt your feelings too often.

Yes. You know the landmines. Yeah. But there's always new ones. There's always new and some of those some of the landmines become more sensitive based on mood or fatigue or different things. You seem like you know a lot about landmines. Well, yeah. I have my yes. I do. And I may I may have a few of my own, like, that I might have some blind spots around still. You know? And maybe maybe we'll get into that later. Maybe not. Because that's not this podcast is not about my land my personal landmines and triggers. Yeah. I guess that is what what the sense of spots are, the blind spots. Yeah. That's where we go we go wild. Or the things I know about that I try to hide. Mhmm. Someone, like, pokes their finger on them. And some people are uniquely gifted at just finding those things.

I think that person might be you. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. I've learned to poke them more tenderly, but I can't poke them. I'm a witness. And sometimes I used to I used to think I was tickling when really I was just poking wounds. We're playing. We're playing. I was with this guy this weekend. I went to on a guy's trip with some friends this past weekend. And, there's a new guy I hadn't met before, and he had brother. He had a brother growing up. And so he thought playing he, like, he would poke me really hard. I have bruises on my side where he would poke me, and he thought that was fun. What? This weekend from That's weekend. Poked you. Yeah. He poked me. I got bruises. So,

Yeah. People with brothers, they're always tough. Oh, my poor sister. So this podcast that we're doing is about is about trauma. Right? And specifically, you and I wanna talk about sexual trauma, but I think a lot of the stuff we're gonna talk about applies to other forms of trauma too. But a little bit of our expertise is in the field of sexual trauma healing and and that kind of stuff. So that's kinda how we think about it. And so kind of doing the call before the call, we came up with an outline and, like so let me go through the outline, then we'll start back at the top just so people know what they're listening for. So we're gonna talk about what is trauma. K. Because trauma is like a big popular word now, and it's used everywhere. I had a friend who was talking about his p a his PTSD in a joking way, and he was told by the people he was in front of that he was, mental health shaming people because because it's such a familiar word. And he was and he has PTSD, and he was being triggered. He goes, oh, there's my PTSD, and then he got attacked because his his trauma triggered their trauma. And he not really not supposed to joke about PTSD anymore. Like, that's a new thing.

Yeah. I mean, who's who's poking? Maybe I'm poking a bruise. Or poking his own bruise or making trying to minimize his own bruise or maybe just saying that he's not defined by his trauma anymore. So let's talk about trauma and how people let trauma define them, and why Dwight ends up defining this. Let's talk about sexual trauma specifically. And then what does trauma cost us? Part of that is what do we do with it. Right? And then how does it show up in our lives later? And then what do we need to do about it? So that's, like, a lot we're gonna cover here. Yeah. There we go again. And we're still not gonna touch everything there is to touch around trauma. Right? So to start, how did you like, as a counselor, how did you kinda get drawn towards this work with people as opposed to, like, just depression and anxiety or addiction or that kind of conceptualizing your work being more trauma focused work?

I think the way I started to see humans was that something got ruptured. Something something had happened. Something got ruptured. And as a human, we lost meaning. We lost ourselves. And so I started to view humans in that way. And so the more I got into that and the more I got into how that shows up in the body, I think the more that I wanted to step into trauma and really get to know it and understand it. Because you're like a certified yoga instructor too. Yeah. And so even something I'll probably never do, Like, just become a certified yoga instructor. Yeah. That that training taught me a lot about the body and how everything is held and where it's held. And they were talking about trauma, and they didn't even know they were talking about trauma. Right. Yeah. So I'll say this, and then we'll start talking about trauma more. This is a good good preamble. So much, I think, of Western culture, Western thinking has divided the body, the soul, the spirit, the mind. Like, we think about those as separate things. Right? And when you start getting into the the realm of trauma with people, you start realizing how interconnected all those pieces are. And that something that may harm the body may really crush the spirit, right, or damage a heart or mar a soul. Right? Those are real like, or or something that could be not physically damaging, could be emotionally and spiritually, like, life wrecking for. And the echoes of that rupture, that that thing that goes off could echo for a lifetime. You know? As Chip Dodd, you know, we've heard him say, sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will crush my heart, and it'll keep bleeding forever. You know? Like, that that could be true too. So when when we start defining trauma, Kate, like, what what would you say trauma is?

I think the best way that I narrow it down to one sentence, because I think that's the nature of trauma, is that it shatters and shreds and has shrapnel everywhere and can be really confusing as to where it starts and ends. Mhmm. And so I think the best way to define it would be that something has happened that you can't create words or meaning around. And then there's so much more to that. But Yeah. So that's that is the like, for people listening, and you hear this word around trauma, the definition of trauma, like the psychological professional definition of trauma is an inability to make meaning of an event. Like, it overwhelms my emotional, spiritual, physical, cognitive ability to understand something or fit it into into into some kind of structure. Right? So does awe. Right? So Yeah. Like, so there's a way, awe, a w e. Like, there's a way that trauma, like, comes right alongside or or hijacks a part of us that's made to worship. Right? And, be overwhelmed by goodness. Trauma is an overwhelmness of something not good, something powerful or humiliating or scary or, like, some negative experience that overwhelms us. But it there's a way I understand it that comes right inside of, because awe is an overwhelming experience. Like, there are things that I don't have words for that are so good that the only way I could begin to describe them is, like, I could feel them again in my body. And so not everything we don't make meaning of is trauma. Some of it is is stuff that's

beautiful. But And so often, they're so in so many stories, not all the time, they're so intertwined Mhmm. Of so close to the the delight that we were made for touches on the actual pain and darkness of what has happened. So it's an inability to make meaning. And then sometimes people talk about a big t trauma and little t trauma. I I wanna Being an only child, little t trauma, I would almost consider that big t, but that that's what they say. Oh, yeah. They always minimize. So when people talk about that, like, what is what do you think it is that we need to minimize or categorize trauma into, like, big t and little t? Yeah. What is that? Shame. I think it's shame. I think it's a Control. Control, a way to kinda say, like because when I hear little t, it's like, I shouldn't be this upset about it, but yet I am. And then there's people who've been through, like, horrific things and are because we sometimes it's the little things that bother us. Yeah. Right? Or a small thing. And we don't understand how that small thing is usually connected to a bigger thing, so we shame the small thing because we don't wanna look at the bigger thing. When we never get to the big thing. We never get to the big thing. Yeah. Because we all know also, we know people who've been through something really, really bad, and they don't seem that affected by it, and that happens too. That's true. Not everybody who goes through war has PTSD. You know? Not every woman who is raped or every man who is sexually abused has PTSD. Mhmm. A lot of people who go through those experiences do have PTSD. Right? So I think there's when people experience trauma or an inability to make sense of or understand or feel whole, I loved I loved your word, not, like, shattered and shredded. Right? Like, the shrapnel of life hits them, and they feel like holes have been punched in them. They wanna minimize it, you know, oftentimes.

And then there's this giant hole separating everything within them, and then it shows up in your body. Yeah. We're not because we're not supposed to talk about it. We don't know how to talk about it. We're not supposed to feel about it. We don't know how to feel about it. We don't have support for it, and so we we ignore it, but we can't ignore it. Right. Our body is so loving to us that it'll be like arthritis, heartworm, bone, intestinal problems, migraines. Erectile dysfunction, vaginal pain during intercourse. Yes. I mean, they're, and not all erectile dysfunction is sexual trauma and not all vaginal pain during intercourse is sexual trauma. But often, we know we know that that is. Right? Like, we know Yeah. So let so let's talk about categories of sexual trauma then. So so what there's a broad range of sexual trauma. So, I guess, shape or shape, like, rape, and, like, ritualistic sexual abuse, like, that would probably be, like, the most severe categories,

I would imagine. Definitely the most violent. Yeah. Violent. Okay. So there's violence. So sexual violence. Yeah. Good correction. Thanks for correcting me. And then and then let's move through, like, what other other categories that you are, then we can kinda sort them out. Because I think there's a Yeah. There's the verbal the verbal no touch. And there's, like, looking and leering. I was in a grocery store yesterday or a couple days ago with Heather, and we walked to the store. And I watched this man look at this younger woman in yoga pants, so whatever. She's half naked in the store. And that Most people are half naked. Right. And so she's not her fault. And this guy looked at her in such a way that it you could feel the scariness of it, and he didn't hide it. Right. Right? He wasn't like he didn't have a sense of shame. He had a sense of, like, I'm going to look at you, and you are safe in this space. A predatory look. You know? It scared me. Like, it like, I kinda moved Heather to the side and kinda walked in a different way, like like a bodyguard for a second. You know? And Yeah. And so that doesn't that has even no touch, no violence, but yet there's a a look that connotates threat. Mhmm. And then there's, like, touching.

Yeah. Touching, groping. Then there's just the, like, cat calls that probably most women have experienced. Or the locker room where a boy is shamed for his body by an older boy or a coach. Right? That's sexual trauma. Absolutely. So let's work on a definition of sexual trauma out loud, from different types of trauma that people are identifying to. So it's a it's a, an act against the body or the sexuality, the gender of another person that typically induces shame and or fear, a sense of humiliation, where the person doing the act gets some sense of satisfaction from or pleasure or or, like, amelioration of their own shame for just a second. Yeah. That's what I was thinking. They're placing their shame. It's like a power dynamic of you're gonna take my shame whether you like it or not. Yeah. So there's a non mutuality

around that. Mhmm. So there's one continuum we're talking about around, like, physical contact, physical penetration, physical touching beneath close or above close, and then there's, like, verbal, and then there's, like, visual, but all of them connotate, a crossing of personal boundary. An attempt to take something. Like, leaving porn out, Oh, yeah. For kids to see. Yeah. On purpose. Yeah. Yeah. And what are other sexual joking, you know, where someone in authority or power, you know, uses sexual joking in the presence of another person. So that that's the continuum. So we've got, like, sexual harassment would be one version, leering, inappropriate language, rough course language, physical touching, inappropriate touching, taking physical liberties with somebody, all the way to, like, forcing someone to have sex, or even ritualistically abusing somebody through sexual activity, right, over and over again.

And this is around I I think what separates those two continuums is people I know and people I don't know. And so now there's this other continuum called people I know and people I don't know. Right? And so it could be really scary to have somebody I don't know look at me, say something to me, do something to me, take advantage of me, harm me. You know? That part doesn't take much creativity. Oh, good word. And then there's another like, for somebody who I do know that says they're safe, for them to harm me, relationally, specifically sexually, it does take more creativity. Tell me about the word creativity there. Like, that word surprised me, and it's a thousand percent right. Like, talk about that. Like, the creativity it takes for a person I'm in a relationship with to sexually traumatize me or emotionally traumatize me. Like, tell me about that.

Well, I was thinking the way that the sexual trauma takes place is through someone creating a whole thing that didn't necessarily exist. Like, first, they see first, they see you. You're weak. You're maybe vulnerable. You maybe aren't gonna talk, and they may they create this whole thing with you. They, yeah, they they see that, like, you're in need. Right? So that yeah. You're vulnerable and you're in need. You're in need of something specific that they're gonna give you. But that the but if they give it to you, it's gonna cost you something. It's a price you have to pay. So you're left feeling like it's your fault. You will play a part. And Yeah. Yeah, the creativity of that kind of work. And that's the difference, I think. You and I have talked about this so much. Like, that's the difference between, like, sexual violence, like a rape, where it doesn't actually take hardly any participation of the victim. Mhmm. Right? He or she is is has no power. Like, sexual rape is mostly about power. Mhmm. You know? Whereas sexual abuse always requires the participation of the victim against the victim's own will. And and the damage of those could be similar, but they also I mean, you and I both know sometimes, people who are sexually abused and groomed suddenly over a long period of time, the long term damage of that of them feeling like it's their fault is much different than a woman or a man who was raped, who they know that it wasn't their fault. They know something was done wrong to them.

Yes. And actually hating the good thing that's that's gonna heal that or will ever ever heal them in their future. Say more about that. The the creativity of the groomer is to find what we as they actually know what we as humans most long for. Connection, delight, constant. Favor. Favor. Yes. Encouragement, someone to name something that they see in us, and they're usually so good at providing that. And so the hatred that that's what it cost me to give that person something that I didn't wanna give him or her. So I got so many thoughts right now, both personally and professionally. Like, my head is full of thoughts of, like, taking a breath and and, like, beginning to think through, like, the cost of sexual trauma is always contempt for self. Hatred of my own need, hatred of my own like, I'm made to be delighted in, created to be delighted in, and my need for delight and adoration, it cost me something. You know? It it requires me to give up something of myself in order to please this other person. And so shame becomes something that cost me, like, self contempt, shame. I hate my neediness, hate my vulnerability. It cost me trust because often when when we receive sexual trauma, we say something to ourselves, I will never again. I will never blank again. I will never want again. I will never need again. I will never let that happen again. The vows. The vow. We start making vows. So trust, it it takes away our freedom. It costs us our freedom. Ironically, a lot of the freedom we take away is we take it away from ourselves. Like, it's a self imposed damage.

That's the thing. We will have the power from now on. We're gonna take it from us because no one else is gonna take it from us again. Oh, that's, that's so sad and so brilliant. Like Fucks. So I felt so powerless in my trauma that I make a vow on some level to never feel that way again. I'm gonna have the power over destroying myself now. Yes. So I'm gonna I'm gonna not eat. I'm gonna cut. I'm gonna overeat. I'm gonna overexercise. I'm gonna perform. I'm gonna you often people tend to find their in light of sexual trauma, they tend to find their worth now somewhere else or they tend to devalue themselves so much that they're worth less. So freedom, trust, shame, relationship, like, the echoes of this shrapnel, this rupture, like, start affecting everything.

Everything. Body you talk about body stuff, like arthritis. Tell me how arthritis could sometimes be trauma. Yeah. I mean, I I would say I always ask the question when stuff shows up. It's like if your body had words, what would it be saying? And so that's how I make meaning of arthritis. I wish I knew all the scientific stuff around what causes that, but I know some people who squeeze so tight even when they're sleeping that I mean, it's like they're it's just aching. Oh, yeah. I clench my jaw. You know? And I noticed I'm talking to people. I raise my shoulders sometimes. I have to continue to drop my shoulders. You know, I know a young woman who, she's now not a young woman. She's now, like, a middle aged person. But she when she was a young woman, she started getting, noticed for her body as she became a woman. Right? And so she started walking in such a way that, like, hunched her over. Yeah. You know? And so now she has, like, almost it's not scoliosis, but you would think But shame. Yeah. It's a shame. Like, the burden of shame on her shoulders, as a way to try to protect herself and hide herself. Yes. You know? Yeah.

Like, that's her body keeps it that way. Yeah. It's like it it deforms us. Our in our shame, it's deforms how we show up. So how so the let's talk about some ways it shows up for us later. Like, there's obvious, like, PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder, right, where I experience any of us a way to think this is for people who are listening. If sometimes you act you react to something bigger than the actual event, you have trauma. Right? So whether it be a noise or a phrase or, a request, did you overreact or you over I'm thinking of a young woman or a guy ask her out on a day very normally. Hey. I'll I like you. I'd like to get to know you better. Would you like to go out on a day, like, take you to dinner? And the the woman went off on them. Like, she went off. Right? And she came in to see me because she knew something was wrong. You know? It's not like she had repressed memories. She just didn't connect the dot between her earlier sexual trauma in high school to the the reenactment of that trauma now at 25 years old. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And there was something about the young man who's asking her out that reminded her of her abuser. And as we got into that, it it really I mean, so it showed up for her that way later. In parenting, I notice parents who've experienced sexual trauma or any trauma really, but whatever the category of trauma, say sexual trauma, they will either overinform or underinform their child or o or be overly progressive or permissive or super restrictive and controlling around a certain topic, you know, as an attempt to not let this happen to their child. And so that's a way we show around the vows of, like,

if if you don't do any healing work, you're gonna those vows are gonna have so much power, like, in your life that you're not gonna be able to parent or whatever you're doing, work, be in relationship, in a way that's true. You're just gonna be working to not do something. Yeah. And and so that's never gonna like you're saying, it's like, I'm gonna just keep talking to my kid the with the anxious way, and then there's the avoidant way of, like, I'm not gonna do anything. Yeah. And then talk about a little bit, about how, like, it might show up in marriage later. Yeah. I mean, it's been so helpful in my own marriage to know, hey. This is a big reaction. And then later to be able to go back and say, oh, this is this is what was going on there. Yeah. It doesn't mean Todd was was not wrong in those moments Right. That you had a big reaction to. Yeah. Like, we're not victims. We're both not victims. Yeah. To take responsibility and and to help understand, like, okay. This is this is what's going on here. Mhmm. Because we're making meaning. We're putting words to it, and so we're not creating more trauma in our marriage.

So now it's opened the door to, like, the way out. And so trauma shows up physically. It shows up in disease. It shows up in psychology. It shows up in spirituality. It it shows up in us putting on a false self so we can protect the true self. So it shows up in our marriages, in our parenting, in our friendships. And you said that unless we deal with it, it will continue to deal with us. So how does somebody deal with it? Yeah. Like, if we're pushing against something so much that things gonna own us and Richard Rohr has this quote that has, like, it it keeps showing up in my life, and I'll never stop saying it to myself. But everything belongs. If everything if it's okay for everything to belong, then we can we can be present within our bodies. And so I think the way out is letting everything belong in a way of naming it, but also taking ownership and responsibility of, this is me. This is my life. I'm doing great things sometimes. I'm doing not great things sometimes. And, this has happened to me, and this has cost me something. And and this is how I'm showing up.

Let's slow way down and talk about the responsibility of a victim to take responsibility for themselves. Because I'm imagining somebody heard you say, and you didn't say it. But somebody heard you say that I have to make it my fault, that I knew it was my fault. And, so let let's slow way down because you and I both know through our own experience and our own training, and we also, like, believe deeply because we've seen it work that when a victim begins to take responsibility for themselves, they actually begin to make meaning of the trauma. That when they notice that this thing happened to me and it's affected me and the person that harmed me can't heal me. Like, punishing them, killing them, getting them to say I'm sorry, like, vengeance won't fix it, and them apologizing won't fix it, That there's some I'm now responsible for this damage that's in me, and it's my job to make it meaningful, make it stand for something, to make it worthwhile of something other than self protection and contempt and self hatred and other or other centered contempt. Right? Let's let's talk a little bit about that. Yeah. I think that's too

you reminded me of how complicated. I'm gonna talk about sexual drama because that's what I do, but that's why sexual abuse is so complicated is because I took place I took part in this. Now I was groomed and there was a power dynamic of someone had power over me, but so many people who I've worked with have such a hard time with that part. Yeah. I took part in this. And I turned my own heart against itself. Yes. And I my cycle. Yes. And I it was wise at the time. I made the best decision for me at the time. And now, today, as an adult who wants to be healed, I, at the time, need to take responsibility and take the power back for myself.

The I was talking with a guy recently, and he was, he said something like, it's about his relationship with his wife and children. And he said, I I I know I'm supposed to feel more connected to them. And so I act like I'm connected, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not connected. Like, I'd know that if they died, I would be sad, but not sad the way a husband and father is supposed to be sad. Mhmm. And then he and I I said, wow, man. Thanks for saying that. That's really brave to say. Really honest. And then he said, I I I don't have any memories before five years old, which is pretty you know, he had a parent abandon him when he was four, three or four. You know? And he said, I think I switched it I flipped a switch when my parent left So that I I I wouldn't have to feel that way again. And I don't even remember them leaving, but I heard I was pretty upset for about a year. That's what he said. This guy's doing all this work. It's like I'm just sitting there nodding like this. He's doing he's brilliant. Like, he's figuring it all out. And he's open to figure he's, like, really open to it. And he said because how do I turn the switch back on? You know? But he's that's question. That's a great question, isn't it? Yes. Because it's kinda rusted in place. The switch is rusted in place at this point. Like Yes. Like, how do I oil it? How do I loosen it? How do I rewire it? You know? But this guy was really wounded and hurt and scared, and he looks in the eyes of his children and realizes there's something in him missing. You know? And to survive his trauma, he had to turn something off.

Yeah. And I think he probably went against Sunbelt to tell the truth. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's a little bit desperate right now. Yeah. He's in a good place. He's sick and tired of being sick and tired. You know? And So there so there is a like, you talk taking your power back. Another word for it is taking responsibility. My my favorite thinker of the last couple years, I've gotten deep into his writings, is a guy named Viktor Frankl, and he wrote a book called Man's Search for Meaning. He did a bunch of lectures and talks, but he's noted for being a Holocaust survivor. And what what he never sees himself as is a victim of persecution. He sees himself as a great humans a great human spirit who endured a great torture and felt responsible to make his life meaningful on the other side. Yeah. You know? That that, and he he says he quotes in one of his books, he quotes, a Jewish rabbi, Heba Habal, who says, life is not something that happens to us. It is the opportunity for something that we basically, it's implying that we make it something. We make it meaningful. Right? Yeah. And so if trauma robs us of meaning, the healing of it is to begin to take responsibility for it and make it meaningful. Yes. Like, what does this mean to me? You know, at Saint Joe, we talk about the beginning of to do that is to feel your feelings and tell the truth and trust the process. Like that like, just naming what you feel about something begins to make it more meaningful than not naming it. Yeah. And naming that it happened and that it mattered. And Yeah. Saying I'm afraid. I was I'm afraid of you. I'm afraid with you or I'm scared or I'm hurt or yeah. This happened to me. Man. So when people start that process, they start telling the truth about about what happened, and what they feel about it, things start to change.

Yeah. There's a lot of unwinding to do. What what do you mean? All begins. Like, that's the beginning. Yeah. That didn't fix it. Yeah. It can be really overwhelming to just name it. Yeah. It's like, now what? Now what? Yeah. I still have these feelings, and I still have this way I see the world, and I still have a reflex to my neediness. You know? Or I'm still addicted to this substance or behavior. Yeah. I'm so used to being my, like, false self. I'm so used to this protective shell and acting out of it. I don't know how to get back to my true noble self that I that was created as, like, my pure self. But you and I, you know, both have generally have had sexual trauma experiences, so no doubt that we, end up doing that work with people. Right? I'll speak for myself now. I just realized I just spoke for you. That was probably not great. But I'm okay with it. Yeah. I was I was being pretty vague, for both our sakes. Yes. Right? I think some of the ways I've made it meaningful is becoming a parent, is getting married, is building a family, is loving my family, is but also is, like, becoming a therapist, doing a lot of, you know, sexual abuse recovery work with people. Like, that feels meaningful to me because I can talk about it from my, I know about it from an inside perspective.

Yeah. And I'm angry. I'm angry about it. Yeah. And I and I believe in healing because I've received healing from it. Yeah. I have hope around it. Think one of the things so what do you think about this? This is gonna be kinda in that responsibility realm. Like, it could make people mad. One of the things, a trauma survivor, whether it's sexual trauma or a mugging or, losing a job or a marriage falling apart or a parent leaving or a natural disaster, like, whatever the trauma comes, coach yelling at you, is how do I not let like, how do I no longer define my life based on that event? How have I let that event define me? That you told that that oppositional energy, that pushing off of something, resisting this thing, not letting it belong to my story. Like, those things that we let be the center of our world, everything revolves around. Yeah. Because we have to avoid them or,

yeah, or be anxious around them. But so that's hard. That's the unraveling. Right? It's like the the unknotting, the denouement, the rest of the story. It's like, oh, great. So you've named this thing you've never named or you've you've counted it as disruptive or unsettling or the echo of this rupture. You could see how it's the the shrapnel has shredded your life, you know. And you still are making it the center of your universe. It's your identity. Your identity is this thing. So will you talk about dreaming a new dream and how scary that is for people to give up their right to be hurt? Yeah. I mean, I think so often, it you need to go off of somebody's belief that the dream is even out there for you in in dreaming a new dream. I think there's a lot of ways to heal, but therapy as one with someone who's gone through it and knows the other side is so important. Because when you're in it, it it can be this dark swirl. And you really need someone on the outside to help you name and stand with you and and be kind to you and patient, because this is when the forces of shame show up even more around yourself, against yourself. And so dreaming a new dream, I guess, would be hoping that someone could sit with you in that, because so much of the trauma is that you were alone and that you had no one to talk about it with or no one to value it with you, no one to help you name, and, really validate your feelings around it.

Invalidate your more than your feelings. Like, at Sage Hill, we're big about feelings. We love feelings, and feelings are just feelings. The reason is like, they're just feelings. They're not end all, be all, not the center of the world or, you know but they're such a vital part of the human experience that survivors and most victims are survivors. They shut off the most tender parts of themselves in order to survive. Right? And so even laying claim to their story, believing in the hope of another person, like, somebody else says, not I think this can be good. I think you can come back from this. I've been there before. I've seen others do it. And they're like, I don't believe you, but I'll sit here. Well, okay. At some point, you've gotta start believing for yourself. But right now Yeah. You know, do you believe that I believe it? You know? And can we believe it together? And then, hopefully, one day, can you believe something bigger for yourself than I I believe? You know? I think a lot of people who go through healing and counseling, at some point, see themselves becoming a counselor. Like, oh, I'll be gonna be a counselor now. It's like, that's great. Why don't you wait about five hot minutes before you enter into this calling, you know, that, is more work than fun. We we you and I both know a lot of people who go to graduate school, try counseling out for a couple years, then quit. Yeah. That is it's slow

work. It's slow work. Yeah. So to find somebody who can dream that can believe on your behalf when you can't believe, to begin to let go of your right to hold on to your woundedness, your shame as your identity, to hold that grudge, to begin to forgive the person that harmed you. Right? Which sounds but never forget that you were harmed. Like, beginning like, forgive the person that harmed you, it doesn't mean to make light of it or doesn't mean that they were doing the best they can, and it doesn't mean that well, they were wounded too. Right? Because there's a lot you know, one of the myths I hate, another little side, is that sexual trauma people end up becoming sexual traumatizers. That's not true. You know? Often, people who are predators or or, like, were people who were preyed upon. But by far, most of people who were sexual trauma victims or survivors don't become sexual per perpetrators or predators. You know? They hate themselves too much. They would never want to do that to somebody. They're too busy hating themselves. Right. Right? Reenacting their own abuse over and over again. Space for that. And so, like, beginning to forgive yourself.

And I think that was big what you just said of reenacting their own abuse, of being willing to stop the cycles that you're so used to running in, that are so comfortable for you, for you to receive something good, which is gonna be really uncomfortable. So let's talk about ways people get help then. And I think we've described the problem, like and so therapy is a way people get help. Right? Talk about EMDR for a second. What is what is people heard this word like PTSD and EMDR. Like, why do people have these letters? What's the letters? Yeah. EMDR is so a memory a traumatic memory gets stuck in the brain, and it it doesn't go to the lower part of the brain where it gets processed. So it gets stuck in this one part of the brain. So anything that tastes like it, smells like it, looks like a shadow of this memory, boom, there you are in your PTSD. Your body has all the same reactions of I'm right back here. I'm right back to this memory when you're not. And so what EMDR does, it just it it, ignites both sides of your brain while bringing up that memory. And it actually research has showed that it moves that memory back to the back part of the brain where it's processed, and it's no longer disturbing

your present experience. EDR means eye movement desensitization reprocessing. Yes. Which means nothing to anybody. It means it's just a way to, like, these really powerful memories that get stuck in the limbic brain that that, filter what we see and think. Like, it it keeps us blind to what's really going on, and we only start we see things in this anytime something resembles, you know, not just visually, but emotionally or it smells or it sounds like a traumatic event, our brain says, trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma. You're in danger. You're in danger. And EMDR is a is a way of, stimulating the body through bilateral touching, left, right, left, right, left, right, or auditory bing bing bing bing or eye movement, left, right, left, right. And it's just a way to stimulate both sides of the body so that that memory gets, like, decompressed, and it slides back to the occipital lobe or wherever it goes back to the back of the brain and stored in a better spot. It's stored in the garage, not the front door where memory is broken. Yeah. Is hey. Is is EMDR shock therapy where people get shocked?

No. That was the thing a long time ago. People ask me that. So Oh, they do? Yeah. Yeah. So if I'm gonna get shocked, it's like, no. No. You're gonna get shocked. They do. There are there is a, vibration, option. I used to call them vibrators. That wasn't what you were calling them. It's like, I told somebody you hold this vibrator, and they're like, I've been sexually traumatized. It's like, no. No. No. It's like a little like, your phone vibrates. And and I'm like, there it is. The memory. It's up in the middle. I think there it is. Pulse it's a pulsar. Pulses. That's bilateral. It's like left, right, left, right. And it can be really helpful for people. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or or brain spotting, which is, like, really slow neurofeedback, can be really, really helpful for people.

And It really, like, heals your brain. Yeah. Neurofeedback is another also can can do that. And, not a but, that's all really, really good. Right? Like somatic body work, like yoga, like trauma and form yoga work. Right? Yep. Anything that gets you in your body. Yeah. And paying attention to yourself. Yeah. And that doesn't necessarily help people make meaning. Mhmm. They still have to do some work around how they think and feel in their life and their true identity in their life. Right? Mhmm. And you and I both know lots of therapists that anytime somebody has a feeling, they try to scrub it out of them with EMDR. Yeah. There's a lot of EMDR, fix quick fixes. Tell me about that. You did air quotes. So what does that mean?

Well, I mean, me doing I I'm also I do EMDR. And it it's not necessarily a quick fix, if there's because EMDR will go try to get to the root memory. And if we don't go there or if we don't find that, or though there's so many defenses up that we can't even do the MDR, there are things that get in the way of that too. Yeah. Yeah. There are. Just like there are in therapy. Yes. Talk talk therapy. Talk therapy. Yeah. So oftentimes in, like, talk therapy, we need to add EMDR. And oftentimes in EMDR, we need to stop EMDR and do really good talk therapy. And we need to go exercise or we need to go draw or we need to go, so I guess I would end this with, like like, there is an end to trauma. Mhmm. Like, you can work through, not all of it, but a big portion of the stuff that holds you back. But it's slow work, for a lot of people. And trauma is normal. It's normative. It's not it's not unique. It's not special. It's not like everybody everybody everybody experiences trauma. Mhmm. Everybody. And so, like, once we realize that everybody experiences trauma, but not everybody has, the opportunity or or the courage or the resources or the resilience to deal with it, right, and to make meaning of it. Like, that really becomes the invitation.

Yeah. I mean, there's so many questions of, like, why would I ever wanna go into that? Yeah. You don't have to. Not until it's so bad doing what you're doing that you wanna change, do you do you need to do anything about it? Like, no one's making you do anything about it. If you were sexually abused when you're 13 or, you know, you had a coach rage at you for the size of your genitalia or if you had a a a parent that would always walk into your room when you were changing clothes, like and you know that bothers you and you know it affects you, but the effects aren't bad enough, don't do anything about it. You know? Wait till it bothers you more. You're you're free not to change. It's okay. There's no shoulds. And why not? Why not do something about it? I feel like I've talked more in this podcast than I've talked in a podcast in a long time.

What do you think that's about, Stephen? I well, I was sitting there going, like, why am I talking so much about this? Well, I'm usually the one interviewing the person and letting them talk, and I might say a couple of wiser or wise wise ass remarks. Like, I don't, you know but, this I think What about sexual trauma makes you talk more? That's good. I think I have found so much freedom and healing and hope and meaning and passion, that I want other people to know the freedom that I have found and know that it's out there, and and to let go of their excuse that they can't change. Mhmm. You know? And to really embrace their hope that and their longing within themselves that life really can be rich and full and meaningful and that their greatest wounds and shame really can be used as their greatest gifts. You know? It but there's a process to it. And so I guess I've been in this work now. I started my own healing journey in 1998. You know? So that's twenty something years. Right?

Long time. Right? So twenty two years. Twenty twenty two twenty three years now. About this time, twenty three years ago. So and when I began it, I didn't even wouldn't wouldn't be able to identify a sexual trauma as part of my story, though it was a big part of my story. Mhmm. And I couldn't tell the feeling from a hole in the wall. Right? Like, I did I would do anything I could do not to have them. So if you're if you were talking human ears, your brain would almost be developed. 23 year old male. Almost mature. Like, almost done with puberty. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty nice. Like, you know, I've been doing this work a long time. I think I've helped a lot of people. I think I've harmed some people. I think I've not helped a few people. And I feel like, you know, I'm more passionate and free in myself, about myself and about my life, about how God's made me and my purpose in the world, and I'm more at ease in my own skin than I've ever been. Yeah.

I mean, being the shorter amount of a witness to you, I would I would agree with that. There's a I'll I'm gonna practice taking it as a compliment, Kate. A what? That's good. Is there anything you wanna say that I've not said? No. I agree. I agree. I think I'm also very passionate about this work because I've seen the cost of how it twists the truth, and I have so much anger around that for people to be free, to be able to tell their truth, and for shame to quit, ruling people's lives and keeping them from so much goodness. So, yeah, I I have a lot of passion and anger around this subject. Thanks, Kate. Thanks, Stephen. Alright. Have a good night. You too. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.