That Sounds Fun with Annie F. Downs

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey, friends. This is Stephen James with Sage Hill. I'm really excited to have on the podcast today, my work neighbor, Annie Downs. Her office is right next door to Sage Hill Nashville. Annie is a best selling author, like, New York Times best selling author, like, her like, a real best selling author. And, she's written a bunch of books. Her most recent book, which we talk the most about, is That Sounds Fun, which is a book about play and delight and joy and what it means to be a full hearted person in the world. It's a great conversation Annie and I had. She gets really vulnerable and honest, and she's a joy to be with. So I hope you enjoy it. If there's anything you need, if there's any way we can help you, please reach out to St. Joe. We're here to help.

Hey, Annie. Hi, Stephen. Thanks for having me. Oh, wow. This is, it's kinda weird. Like, I'm having a little weird out of body experience. Tell me more. Well, when we're neighbors Yes. That's right. We're like work neighbors. Yes. Like, our buildings are right next to each other. We don't see like most neighbors in the twenty first century, we don't see each other. We don't see each other. We saw each other last year once. And I feel like I'm I'm in your place. So our the Sage Old Podcast listeners are going, wow. They've got new microphones. It's like, no. Annie just was really nice to let us use her studio. Yeah. We said, you wanna walk over here? I'll walk over there. You said, I'll walk over here. So we're in the that sounds fun studio. What do you call it? Is that what you call it? Podcast studio. Yeah. Okay. The podcast studio. Yeah. And you've been in this office for how long?

September '19. Okay. So a year and a half. Yeah. Does it feel like home? It's beautiful. It does. Thank you. Yeah. It does. You know what's really funny, Stephen? This is just my experience with God, is when I came into this office to visit it, I had one employee Whenever a prophet says, this is just my experience with God, people need to show up and listen. Oh my God. Well, if I'm a prophet, I'm not sure sure I wanna carry that mantle, but maybe. I walked in here and it's five rooms and it was me and one employee, and Jenna. And Jenna and I walked through here and we both were like, this is the one we're supposed to get. And I kept saying to the Lord, this office doesn't make sense. There's two of us and there's five offices. And I knew I needed one for the studio, and this was the only one, the room we're in was the only room that was carpeted. And so it made tons of sense. And and then I wanted an office. And then there was three empty places. And I was like, I can't imagine what this is about. But I knew his lean his lean on me and what it sounds like when God invites me to something and instructs me towards something. And I was like, well, this is it. And would you know, a year later, a pandemic year later, there's nine of us. And we fill up, we double every office. And I could have never So you had like a COVID outbreak here? Yeah. We literally had an outbreak of some sort. Yeah. It's wild. And so now, had we picked a different option, one of the other offices we looked at that fit that fit the company I knew, we couldn't have grown the thing that God has intended for us to grow. And so it has been a life lesson for me watching this place fill up because in the true sense of the movie, if you build it, they will come. I mean, it was very much like the Lord was like, this if you will have a whole list of things. Kevin Costner. Yeah. That's right. That's right. What's the name of that movie? Not a league of the drones. Field of Dreams. Field of Dreams. Field of Dreams. Is a Sorry. Totally different movie. Two baseball movies, though. Same sport, same sport. Yeah. So it's a different place. One's about fathers and sons. That's true. Totally different. Very different, very different. Same sport. And I do like being next to y'all. It is, it feels like some of our neighbors, including you, have I'm a big believer that places feel a thing Yeah. And feel like a place. Yeah. And so when we have a gym near us. We have healthy people all around us. We have y'all. We have a Botox center. We have a Botox center. Yeah. You have a Botox center. I'm not. You I keep thinking about it. And so it just feels like, yeah, this was a healthy spot for us. And we're here for a while. I mean, we have a pretty long lease. Yeah. So do we. Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna be neighbors for a good time. We work hard for a while. Uh-huh.

So I wanna talk about your new book. That sounds fun. I want to talk about you. Okay. I want to talk about whatever else do you want to talk about. Yeah. I probably want to talk about me too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would love for it. So let's talk about your new book. That sounds fun. Okay. Alright. I've got some hard questions. Oh, I'm ready. Barbara Walters right now. Journalism. No. Not really. I noticed four themes, and I want you to tell me if I if I was right. I'm sure you are. So the the the general theme of the book is like, hey, guys. You gotta learn how to have fun again. And that's a big important part of life is like, learning posture and play and Yeah. And amateur, you call amateur and that kind of stuff. So I recognize the theme of permission Yeah. The theme of invitation Yep. The theme of encouragement Yeah. And the theme of warning. Oh, tell me more about the warning thing. Right? Well, you kinda there's a place that really caught me because I've not read the whole book. I really confessed that. I'm I'm great with that. You and I have done a lot of these interviews, and what's annoying to me is when the person that's interviewing you pretends they've read your book Uh-huh. And they've not really read your book. So do you They've read their press release or the press packet, which I threw away. Sorry to your questions. No offense, no offense.

I kinda like when people, well, when I'm interviewing and I haven't had time to read the whole book, I don't pretend I've read it, but I certainly don't pretend I haven't. So I kinda come in the middle. So I I I've read through it a few times, so I've not read it. Thank you. No. That's very good. But those themes jump out. Yeah. Tell me about the warning thing. The warning is you talk about, like, fun's not easy. Yeah. Like, there's a there's a pace where it's like there's a cost for fun. Yeah. And sometimes fun is hard. Mhmm. And I I was I wanna get to that. Let's start with that. Yeah. We'll work backwards. How I have the story somewhere underlined in there, but how did you know that?

Well, I think we always assume that the fun things are easy, and they're and that those things are synonymous, and it's just not true. Sometimes it's very easy to grieve. Right? I mean, it hurts, but it's very easy to do. Sometimes it's harder to not grieve than to grieve. That's right. And so I think the misdefinition, that's not a word, that fun gets is people assume fun is not important and that it's easy. And I would say fun is incredibly important in your emotional life and your spiritual life. It's fundamental. Yeah. Oh, why have I never done that before? That's yours for free. Gee whiz, that's brilliant. Why have I never done that before? It is fundamental, and I think sometimes it can be really challenging. And what I've learned now that the book's out, a handful of people have read it, and I'm joking, not jokingly, but I'm kind of like tongue in cheek doing fun coaching on Instagram once a week or so. What is fun coaching? It is, where I literally just say, what do you, how do you, how can I help you with your fun? And they give me the answers, and I answer their questions. So I get hundreds of questions Okay. About what And and so often That's so sad. It's That's it. Oh. So often, this is so hard for people, and they have no idea. They they don't know where to start. They don't know how to do it. They don't know they don't remember having fun. They don't think fun is they'd say, I know you say fun matters, but how can I ever find time for that? Yeah. When the world is as it is right now, why would I ever prioritize fun? I mean, it is hard for people. It is hard. There are some personalities that it's harder for than others. Like? Like Enneagram Ones, people who identify as ones. They're never fun. Right. Fours, they like Holocaust documentaries. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's some of of us, the more aggressive Let's watch a sad movie that night last night. What are you? I can't remember.

Are you also a seven like me? I'm an eight with a seven one. Okay. You're a seven with an eight wing. Yeah. I'll just wrote that down. I was like, eight seven seven eight. That's yeah. I asked the same question myself. Am I a seven eight or am I eight seven? But I and so those of us with more aggressive stances, fun is a little bit more natural and adventure is a little more natural. This is wide sweeping generalizations, but but who says to me on Instagram repeatedly that they are struggling with fun as once? They say, I'm an Enneagram one. I can't it blew my mind that I'm not hearing from twos. I'm not hearing from the For the uninitiated, a one is what? A one is a perfectionist. So they're the ones who are very concerned with things being done right, and that is such a benefit to our culture, to my life,

to Bridges. Yeah, yeah, to all the things we rely on. We want ones behind the scenes making sure those things are done right, or in the front of the scenes making sure they're done right. But fun has apparently been very hard to them, and I didn't know. I just didn't know, Stephen. I mean, I knew when I wrote the book and it resonated so quickly with so many people that it mattered. I didn't know how hard it was. Yeah. But you I mean, you saw that I knew. I guess more than I had realized, I did. Yeah. There's, in a world that is tragic, to let your guard down, and to enter a space of openness, a space of possibility, a space of incompetence, right, where you're actually free. That's right. Like, there's a huge risk in that. I jokingly say to people a lot, go if you're not married yet, go on a date to an amusement park.

Because what happens is that What happens if you're married and go on a date to do something? Yeah. Well, you can, but you already know each other really well. But the vulnerability piece of sitting beside someone that you're not in committed relationship with Yeah. And having to scream. Yeah, yeah. And let go and be free. Or try to act cool. Yes, yes. So even that, analogy, if you take that into your life, what would it be like to go on a first date at an amusement park? That level of vulnerability and what that invites other people to is what you're going for. Heather says riding in a car with me is like being on a rollercoaster. So all the people in your family have experienced what's fly. I love it. I think it's fun. You're having a great time. That's exactly right. So you're right. The thing that people forget about fun is it requires a real vulnerability, that you're gonna laugh, that you're gonna mess up, that you're gonna fall down, that this may not go as well as you thought it would. That's why being an amateur matters. Give yourself permission to have fun and to

mess up and to not everything you're good at now, you did once for the first time. Mhmm. Like, everything you're good at now, you used to know. Yeah. When I did a in my former life, I did a lot of work with professional athletes, like Yeah. Psychological trauma work and Oh, wow. And, I dabble in that now, but it's not like a major piece of what I do. And one of the things we always did, almost always did, was like they didn't have hobbies. They didn't have an interest outside of like life or death job. Yep. And to be successful in professional sports, like there's an obsessive nature to perfectionism that keeps peep talent gets you to the game, but like obsession, keeps you in the game. Yeah. Right? And then the obsession keeps you from from achieving in the game because they've lost the ability to let go and just be Mhmm. And learn and grow and adapt. And and so one of the tricks I always found with people and what's actually intriguing about your book is is, like you gotta find a hobby. Yeah. Like you gotta find something that interests your heart more than the thing you're giving your heart to. Yes. Right? Because it's gonna feed you and feed you back and grow you.

It's what we see about pastors who fail and fall away and and fall apart. I thought that's part like, job requirement of a pastor is to to fail at the altar. Yeah. Right. Do you know, and the other day I heard a story of a Or therapist. Right. Right. I heard a story of a pastor that's in my life historically, and I got all these texts that he that just with his name. Did you hear? Did you hear? And I was like, I get out and I call my mom, and I'm like, Mom, did he die? And she was like, No, he had an affair. And I was like, Oh. Well, I am more shocked by death Yeah. Than I am, which happens to actually all of us Yeah. Yeah. Than I am shocked by a pastor having an affair in 2021. I mean, like, welcome to today. But so many of our pastor friends, so many leaders are, in the way you explained it for professional athletes, we are obsessed. I, the reason my job, the reason we added so many employees, I'm obsessed. Yeah. I am all in on this game. Talent got me here, and obsession is keeping me going, right? If you don't have hobbies for whether you're leading a family or a church or a company,

if you don't Or just yourself. Or just yourself. Yeah, leading your Which is the hardest thing to actually lead yourself in. Oh, that's a 100%. I am my worst own employee. Really? And my worst so house. How did your last job review go? I am not, yeah, not great. Not great. But without hobbies, we don't have a thing that we practice and try that we're not professional at, and we don't have a thing that takes us away from our job and our achieving. Even one of my friends who works here, the other day we were all sitting around eating lunch, and she said, I just can't get this off my brain. And we were like, What are you talking about? And she said, My tennis match yesterday. I wanted to win, and we didn't win. And another girl said, I think you need a hobby that you can't win at. And we were so Sounds like it's tennis. Whoops, yeah. Yeah, that's right. She found it. So hobbies, having these things in your life, I mean, I'm sure therapeutically, I would love to actually hear you say therapeutically why hobbies matter, but non therapeutically, what I have seen is that you need that separation so that you can finish the race you're on. Yeah. Yeah. The

we're made for rest as much as we are for work. Like, we need rest. We need play. We need, to be in a space. I mean, the fun thing about play is it's the suspension of fear and it's the suspension of shame. Like, I have to set these things aside in order to enter into a space where things are possible. Yes. And and so to learn in a world where performance, production, achievement, accomplishment, security, reputation, persona is so important. Like a curated Instagram feed, like all that stuff. Right? It's so important to, like, enter into a space where none of that matters and I'm just fumbling and falling, you know. And, that's, like, that's so important. Right? And so genuine and so humble and reveals, exposes, I think, so much of who we really are Mhmm. And who we need, you know, in our lives. And so that's why I think there's something you wrote this book not very heavy. I think about these things very heavily a lot. So it's fun for me to, like, flip through it over the last few days and kind of go, oh, like, yeah, fun is fun. Yeah. Fun's not such a burden. Like, fun stuff. And I like being tricky like that. I like people, I like writing

at the top level of the ocean, and when people jump in, it's up to them how far they sink. But I like that there's options. Oh, yeah, you got the options. Because the whole book, the reality is this whole book is about shame. Yes. And it's about how do you not let shame win. Yeah. Because I think that's probably maybe that's true for everyone. You can tell me, Stephen. I don't know. But when I'm sitting in my counseling appointments and when I'm looking over my story, my story is about not letting shame win. And so is that true for everybody? Is it everybody saying not letting shame win? No. Okay. I think, those of us who've chosen some level of responsibility or burden everybody struggle well, let me go back. Everybody struggles with shame. Mhmm. Some people are dealing with, like, don't let fear win. Don't let loneliness win. Don't let you know? I think those of us who have chosen to be in public or chosen to wear a mantle of responsibility or leadership, there's something intimate that we have with, performance Mhmm. And responsibility. And most of us were initiated into adulthood earlier than other people. Ah. And so, like, the idea of, like, how am I doing was a life saving question. How am I doing? How am I doing? How am I doing? And like we're looking around in the outside world and the minute somebody looks at us and smiles, we're like, I must be doing okay. Oh my gosh. Right? Literally. Yeah. And so what saved our lives ends up being actually the the problem with us. Mhmm. You know? And, so not everybody that's not everybody's deal, but I think it's you and I's deal. Yeah. Yeah. It's my deal. I mean, I didn't realize how much shame

spoke into everything for me until I started plucking it out of places. It's just like when you're, you probably don't do this, but when you pluck your eyebrows, as soon as you start going after something I might have plucked a brow or two. Sure, so you know, so we all know. But anytime Mine art is crafted as yours, but there's been the plucking. Yeah. There's been some removal. Yes. When you start in one place, you end up plucking anywhere. You know? Like, it's why you can't keep tweezers in your car or you'll have no eyebrows. Right? Wow. No, I've not had that problem. Yes. So, but that happens with me with shame, is that if I as I start going after it in some areas, it reveals itself. Look, it's over here too. It's over here too. And I go, oh, man. Okay. Well, I'll go get it over there. I'll go get it over there. And it it's exhausting, but it's also freeing because once it's gone, it's gone. So you you probably know this, but it's worth me saying. I probably know. The well, I don't know if you don't or not. Shame is, like, really important

because shame is the feeling that regulates human attachment. So it's important to have shame? You gotta have shame. Alright. Well, then I win at that if that's a competition. Just the psychological definition of a person without shame is a psychopath. Oh, Oh, sure. Because it's what keeps me from being a psychopath. Right. It's like allows me to read other people. It allows me to read myself. It allows me to read kind of the world and see how I fit in. And if the greatest human needs to belong or matter, a person without shame is very, very dangerous. Okay. So it's good that there's some in me. It's so powerful. Is it okay that I pluck it out? Because I do that's I I remove it to stop it, to not let it stop me from being a snake.

Powerful that it's often we often overuse it to, like, drive us or control us instead of just listening to what it has to say. Yeah. And, the kind of internal metaphor I use is there's, like, this dinner table of this stuff. Like, in the movie Inside Out Uh-huh. Yeah. Of course. It's like shame's got something to say. Mhmm. But it has a, like, a very narrow perspective on the whole world. Yeah. Absolutely. Learn how to listen to it appropriately. Yeah. Or to hold it with compassion. Mhmm. And not let it drive the car around all the time. Right? That I think that's the wisdom. Yeah. You know? Because then I'll be my my the trick, which you just talked about is, like, my shame becomes obsessed with my shame. Oh, sure. Right? It's a very narcissistic

stance. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, yeah. Like, we're all, like, we're all weird, and we're all goofy. Yeah. And thank goodness we're all wearing clothes because without shame, we wouldn't be. Yeah. You're right. You're right. And that I mean, that was the goal with that sounds fun is when people read it, that is their, what you said, the permission and the invitation. I want, because that is, that's, I write books because it's what I want people to say to me. And I want people to give me permission and invite me. And so I write books because I wrote That Sounds Fun because I want to give everyone else the thing I want. Yeah. I want to give them invitation and permission. Just be you. Don't listen to the shame. Just be you because that's what I want. Yeah.

So you're you're tearing up right now. Yeah. I just feel it. I've never I've never even thought that until I'm saying it to you. Yeah. I write books to encourage myself. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I'm just like, man, I need to hear this. Yeah. And I don't even know how much I need to hear it till I write it down. Right. Have you ever, like, gone back and read one of your books and went, like, I said that? Like yeah. I don't read that. Recognize that. Yes. I had to read the audiobook. My first two books are for teen girls. That's how I started. And we never had audiobooks for them. And so I had to go back and read the audiobooks a year ago. Yeah. A little more than a year ago because I actually was sick right at the start of COVID, not with COVID. Well, maybe with COVID. But it was before we knew blah blah blah. I couldn't stop coughing. Interesting. Right? So I couldn't finish the audio book. Yeah. So I remember when it was, it was the winter of 'twenty, I read both of those. And there were multiple places where I was like, Oh, I wouldn't say it like that now. I wouldn't say it. But I have to honor 26 year old Annie writing the best book she could write. Absolutely. And so, but yes, I mean, when I go back and read them, I was like, I would not have said it just like that. I would, you know. But they're yearbooks in some ways, right? They're memory keepers in some ways. And so to go back and change a book you've written is to go back and rewrite your own history, and that's not fair. Yeah. And so the problem is on a bookshelf at a bookstore, the consumer doesn't know the growth. That was twenty years ago or ten years ago. Right. And so that's that's okay. They they can look at the print date, and they can see. And I still think they're valuable. I just think that they, there's growth between book to book. We'd hope so. Right? If there's not, you need more shame. Right? Yeah. Or less.

So let my so let me go to this. I have three questions. And I want you to answer them with one word. Oh, great. That'll be super easy. And then we'll go back Okay. And then you can unpack them. Right? So where have you been? Where are you now? Uh-huh. And where are you going? Okay. Where have I been? Where have I been? Hopeful. Where are you now? Tired. Where are you going? I don't know. That's three words. Sorry to tell you. I don't know if it's one word. That's all I know. I don't know. I don't know. I'll take a break. Take care. Yeah. I love it. I love it. So unpack that. Like, where have you been? Yeah. I've been hopeful. I mean, I I think I'm here because I knew I could be here. And I think I'm here because I hoped that life would turn out like this in this part of my life. And There are people right now hating you for saying that. Yeah, why? Because you just said that life can turn out the way you hope, and there are people, I think it's Well, that's also why I said in this part of my life. In this part of my life, right? Yeah. It's not my whole life. It's not your whole life. It's in my professional life. Yeah. But I mean, I think a lot of us in our professional careers can go, when I started this, I hoped I'd be the president. When I started this, I hoped I'd get a raise. When I started this, I hoped I'd be an assistant principal. And they are. Because if you continue at a career, you most likely move up in the career. And so that's what I mean by that. I was hopeful, not about Instagram followers or any of that stuff, but as far as growing a company, this is what I hoped. I couldn't have pictured this, of course. You know, I was I think if you had gotten 10 offices, those would be filled. I think it was small. Maybe. Clearly you needed it. Well, let's see. Yeah. But, you know, when I was starting to dream about this career, podcasts weren't a thing. So I couldn't have even dreamed this, which is, I love reminding teenagers of that, and especially young people listening to God and making life choices about where they're supposed to go next. I'm like, don't ask for the big picture. There's technology you don't even know yet. Yeah. So so with what you know about God and what you know about yourself and what you know about what the world needs, what's your next right mix? So hope

is the most painful thing in the universe. Oh, I without question. Right? Yes. Yeah. No question. I mean, you you're speaking to a woman who's 40 and not married and who and who's building this thing by myself and who will continue to hope that that's part of my story. Yeah. And it is like, and when you hope that I mean, I've written eight books and seven of them didn't hit New York Times bestseller list, and I felt every one of those. Yeah. And so, so yeah, I think Is that your metric that they hit New York Times Best Seller List? It was, yeah. Yeah. I mean, because that's kind of, in our world of publishing, there's very few awards. And I like awards, and I like, shoot. Like, my shame just sort of like Right. Like, I've never hit New York. Do you care, though? If you don't care, I do. Apparently right now I do. Yeah. Yeah, because, like, I mean, I watched the final four basketball games in the championship.

I don't care. So a terrible game that was. I felt sad for Like not having a dog in the hunt. Yeah. Like, I don't I don't care about being a dog. It's like, what a bad game. Yeah. Yeah. And so because I don't care, I have no feelings about it. So I hope that if you don't care about any of your times, you continue to have no feelings about it. But to me, it was the metric of this is where I want I want to have something I started calling all my friends that were Baylor fans, like, about about five minutes into the first first half. Like, no one would act just kept calling. Yeah. And then they all called back at the first commercial break. Oh, yeah. And I was they're like, what do you need? I was like, I'm just bothering you. I was doing the opposite. I was texting two of my friends, and I was waiting until the commercials to be like, I have another question. Just real quick. I know it's a commercial. I have it on. So answer my question. That's good. So hope was it. Yeah. Yeah. I was hopeful about this job. I've been hope I I have lived a very hope filled life. I really like hope. I believe in hope. It's like you can't help it. Yeah. Well, I remember one try one time trying to not hope and just going like, you know what? Let's just live. Let's not Trying to keep in diarrhea. Right. And it just felt like death. Yeah. It just felt like I was like, oh, this is when things go wrong in my life is I mean, things have gone wrong a lot in my life, but as far as like the path going wrong, as far as like, oh, this is a dark forest that I actually don't have to enter. There's plenty of dark forests that are for our good and are very painful. There are dark forests we choose for ourselves, I think. Great. We're a great person. Yes. I stood at a crossroads, and I thought that dark forest is if I keep talking like this and thinking like this. And I thought it was gonna feel less painful to not hope, and it is actually worse. So I'm just gonna get back on the hope train and and publicly want something I don't have. Yeah. And that and it's really strange, Stephen, because Oh, gosh. The things people wanna say to you. Yeah. And and the things that the shame people feel about publicly wanting. Oh, yeah. And the way they

put that, reflect that onto my public wanting. Reject it, yeah. Yeah. And where I go like, the thing you're feeling has nothing to do with me. The contempt they have for your hope is the contempt they carry for their own. Like a great story they're afraid of or Yeah. A disappointment they've not processed or it's so much about call. I've just been doing some writing about calling lately. Yeah. Like, one of the ideas I've been playing with is, like, calling is like stepping into your father's shoes when you're little. Like Yeah. It's like you're playing and then trying to run-in them. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's, like, so clumsy and goofy. It never works out. Yeah. It never works out. That's exactly right. That's part of the process. Yeah. That's right. You have to. You have to. You have to. Those are the dark forests that we're made for. Yes. That's right. Not putting on the shoes is the dark force we create. Yes. Right? And then because the things we have to do to numb our hearts against hope, like, end up killing us. Yes. That's right. It's so It was depression or anxiety or addiction or workaholism or something that Yes.

That takes us away from who we're made to be. Yes. Exactly. It feels it is it was so dark. Yeah. That's exactly right. Dangerous book. Maybe. We'll see. Because you're fading the flames of of childhoodness, of play Yeah. Of hope, of delight. These are all, like, very vulnerable, vulnerable feelings. But people don't know. So it's not quite dangerous yet, but on on, like, month three when they're doing their hobby and something falls apart and they feel suddenly very exposed and vulnerable and they're mad at me, that's when they realize like, oh, this wasn't like a joke. This wasn't like just like an easy, fun book. But that's why I like that the cover's light and beautiful. Matt Raymond did an incredible job. It sits at Target. People grab it because they think it's pretty. And I want that. I want it to go home into lives that we're not expecting an encounter with Jesus or an encounter with themselves, an encounter with hope, and they're ashamed to have an encounter with hope and see what happens in their lives. Is that what you're tired from? Yeah, I'm tired. You want me to tell you what I'm tired from? I told my staff this this morning, a couple of the girls we were sitting in there. I'm tired of being nervous about big things happening. Since we launched the book, we keep having these moments that are awesome. Like what? Like Good Morning America. Oh, just, yeah, what else? Or interviewing Jennifer Garner. And so, but hear me say, I have not sat In my heart just sat. And a book launch and a tour announcement, and I hope this is coming across well. I have sat in are people going to like me Yeah. In an extreme measure Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For a lot of days in a row. Yeah. And that is not how I live. Uh-uh.

That's what you've chosen to walk into. Yeah. And so this season What's the break you're gonna take? I have two weeks off in July? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I know. Your friend, my counselor, Jennifer, the other week, she was like, you're not walking out of this room until we put some vacation days on. So we've taken two days off flat in the last couple of weeks. The whole company shut down on a Friday. I said mental health day. I gave them two weeks warning. Everybody's not working next Friday. I don't care. Yeah. Rest. I don't care what you have. You have two weeks to sort it out. But there but I I just have felt like so it it's not like, oh, these huge opportunities, and, oh, I'm nervous. It's been like Yeah. The opportunity to be massively rejected

keep is happening on a daily basis. Also, and to it, tell me if I'm right, like, the the opportunity to, like, live into in the influence, you know, you're called to have right now. Right? That's there's something tiring about that. Like Yeah. Having I could imagine. You're you're very humble, like, approachable, down to earth, and part of that's your brand and your persona, but most of that's who you really are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. Which is good. That's good to have a brand that's closer to who you really are. Yeah. That's right. It's easier to pull off. I mean right? Yeah. Only tell lies you can keep. Yes. Yeah. And, like, to it would be easier to step in and act like you have it all together than to step in and be yourself because you have to keep being yourself. Yeah. Right? And a lot of these things, these opportunities you're getting are they are once in a lifetime opportunities, and you know if you beat them up, you won't get them again. Yes. You know? Yes. And I feel that I need you to know I feel that every day if you screw this up, if you screw this up. And I'm like, I can't. That may may or may not be true, but that's true what it feels like. Yes. And listen to this. And if you do well, guess what's gonna happen? More. You're gonna get them again. I know. Oh, gosh. Oh, sweet Annie.

I know. And it sounds like I I hope hope this It doesn't sound like you're complaining to me. Okay. I hope not. And I hope this isn't just a Oh, poor Annie. She's got a New York Times bestseller. That's right. I don't want it to sound that way. I want because I don't feel that. I am beyond grateful, and I I have more than I deserve. I've I Like, even even listen to this. Listen to our conversation. Like, I ask you where have you been, where you are, where you're going. You sound tired. You're being really vulnerable. But because we know, like, if you're if you're actually fulfilling what you're made to do, you're gonna get tired. Yeah. And it doesn't sound like you're complaining because I can see your face. It's like you're, like, being real and sincere. But the fear of, like, of of the judgment that comes around vulnerability Yeah. Around, play, around happiness, around fulfillment. It's like if I'm if I'm if I'm honest about, like, life, you know, then the shoulds, I should be happy. Oh, man. Right? Right? It's like I should be great. I should just yeah. She didn't say she's not happy. She didn't say she's not grateful.

She just said she's tired this week. That's right. That's all she said. As I'm hearing myself, I'm going like, I wanna express that I'm afraid of being rejected, but I don't wanna express it because I don't wanna be rejected. Right. That's literally how I feel. Like, I can't tell Stephen and all these people listening that I'm afraid of being rejected because they'll reject me for having fears around an opportunity that's really cool, like interview Jennifer Garner. Yeah. She was lovely. Oh, that's cute. She's everything you want her to be. Her brand matches her. Yeah. I am afraid of, I am tired of being nervous that I You think she liked you? I think she thought I was fine. I think she thought, she didn't, like, DM me immediately. Like, hey, let's be buddies. Yeah, sadly. It did not go that way. It still didn't seem You wanna come out of the yacht this weekend? Yeah, she was on three of my friends' pods. We all had her the same day. We all interviewed her the same day. And I listened to the other two, and I was like, ugh, she liked them more, she loved me. But she also knew who they were, and I was an actual stranger to her. She could not have been lovelier. But that's why I feel tired, Stephen, is I feel, I am constantly managing my own emotions around fear of rejection right now. And I gotta lead all these people. Yeah. And they're going, what do we do next? Yeah. And I mean, we just had, like, a where they were trying to sort something out, and I was like, well, here's the answer. And they were both like, no. Yeah. We know how to do this. We don't need you to do that. And I was like, oh, right. You don't need me to do that. I'm just trying to get everything fixed because I'm scared.

Yeah. Thanks for saying that. Well It just sounds like you're more than just tired. It sounds like you're scared. Yeah. Yeah. I do feel scared. Yeah. But I think the management of fear and the management of worry is exhausting. Mhmm. And so the feeling I know best is that I'm tired. The underly as you're saying, the underlying of it is I'm tired of managing my fear. I'm tired of being brave for a minute. I need to just not be brave for, like, ten minutes, please. Yeah. Oh, gosh. That sounds so doesn't that just sound so bougie? I don't mean for it to. Yeah. A tissue on my own podcast table. Sorry. Yeah. How does that like, what what do you Like, like, I don't know. I just I don't like the way that sounds, but you're right. I'm tired of having I'm tired of being brave. Like, every every like, I'm picturing, like, Wonder Woman. Like the like the cool Wonder Woman, not the not the pinup Wonder Woman. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The first Wonder Woman movie that came out recently. Right? Like like, there's a every soldier, every hero, like, has to come home from the battlefield. They can't stay on the front all the time. Yeah. Right? And that thing in you that says, like, man, I I I'm tired of being so brave for just a minute. Like, I don't wanna quit being brave. That's right. I think there's some real honesty around that because the what we'd want to see or want to believe is, like, it's easy to be brave. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's not. It's not. It takes practice.

It takes commitment. It takes support, like encouragement. I was gonna say and remember, who do I go home to to leave the battlefield? Nobody. Clearly not a cavapoo. Yeah, not a cavapoo. That was allergic. Yeah. Yeah, right. And so there's that of like, I have wonderful friends. I have great relationships. I am my own resting place. Yeah. God is my resting place is the right answer. But when it comes to other humans, when I go home, it's me. Yeah. And and that's okay. And that's Yeah. It's We can It's okay, and it's not okay. Yeah. It's okay, and it's not okay. And it's tiring. People normally cry when you do your podcast? No. But they normally cry when they talk to me. Yeah. That is true. You're, like, very used to this. This is an actual accidental

counseling session. Sorry. I think it's just two people having a conversation. And I I think it's, I think it's a real honor. Like, you're being really honest. And I think people can I can tell you're being honest? It feels good. It feels like I'm, like, relaxing. Yeah. It's helping me name things for myself. You know, that I think one of the the pieces of, that we have to learn as a human is we've got to, like, go do something before we're ready to do it. That's like being brave. Always. Yes. My passion is bigger than my fear. I'm gonna step into it. And Heather, got some bees last year. Mhmm. Right? That was really brave of her because talk Enneagram six, like, common good. She's got 40,000 creatures to care for. Right? And there's a pretty good chance your first beehive didn't make it. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. That's brutal. And so in her attempt to care for them well, she let she wanted to make sure they had enough honey Yeah. To get through the winter, which means she left a box or two too many out there, and the bees couldn't manage it. And Oh, wow. Wax moths got in. And the bees left, died. Something happened. Yeah. Right? Like, it was super brave of her. It was more brave was for her to say, I wanna get another beehive. Oh, wow. Right? This is little acts of bravery. Yes. Right? Yes. But I I reflect on how often I have to be brave. Like, how how I mean, if if we like, little acts of bravery beget big acts of bravery beget, like, I need a break. I need a minute, like, just to not be brave. Yeah. You know? I was with, Brad Barnes. You know? Yeah. Right. Hi, Brad. Yeah. And he took me to play golf at this, like, real bougie golf course. Yeah. I felt like it was special. Yeah. It's fun to have successful friends. Yeah. That's right. And we're we're, because I got into golf over COVID. So I'm like a one one year golfer. Oh my gosh. That's so cool. It's my play. Yeah. I'm kind of obsessed about it. Well done. It's good. It's challenging. I'll never be good at it. I see it. Guy to take you. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's really good. Yeah. Fortunately, he had a bad day that day, so he's very nice for bread. But we're standing over this hole, and it was a long way off. And and there's water. And, he said he said, you can do that. I was like, no. I can't do that. And there's this big fat green space over here called the fairway Uh-huh. Which I have trouble hitting that. But this other thing, like, 235 yards away, there's no way I'm gonna hit that thing. Yeah. And he encouraged me to be brave. Yeah. And I crushed it. Yeah. Really. And it was like this, but even like that little act of bravery Yes. Like, that has stayed with me for, like, several days now. Yeah. You know, the camaraderie being with Brad, his kindness to encourage me, and then my act of stepping into it, and then it paying off. Yes. Right? Yes. I won't forget the payoff. Right. Right. And it's like, that haunts me. Yeah. You know? It's like, oh, no. I gotta I'm gonna get to be brave. I'm gonna get to be brave again. Yeah. And I now have been brave. Yeah. And so I think you've been brave for years. Mhmm. Thank you. And you're getting tired. And so, like, take a weekend. Yeah.

I know. I do take weekends, but I do need I mean, that is what I'm looking forward to in July is two two weeks. Do you know where you're going? I'm disconnected. Yeah. I'm just gonna go to the beach. Yeah. Is that good for you, the beach? I think so. I, everywhere is good. New York is great for me because it's so loud. Oh, wow. I feel like when I'm at the beach or when I'm in the mountains, I'm the loudest thing there, and so I still have to tone myself down a little bit, or become the quieter version of myself that exists. Yeah. When I'm in New York, I can I'm I'm it is louder than me every time. And it's busy and close and it is all my favorite things. And so but, yeah, I feel like I I mean, what happened is I who would I talk to? Oh, John Eldridge was on my show. And we finished the interview or we're in the interview and he says, if you could write yourself a prescription to help you heal from the pandemic, what would you do? What prescription would you write yourself? And I went home that night after work and I sat on my couch. I've asked to sit on my couch for three hours thinking. I think TV was on, but I wasn't. I don't remember anything. I just remember thinking, what prescription would I write? And I called Jennifer, my counselor, or texted her, and I was like, I I have to go on to the beach. Like, I'm here it is. I made the I made the reservation. I I just need to not lead anybody besides myself for a little bit. I need to not create for a little bit. Yeah. I need to not

Think about that. Like, my identity is in leadership and creation, and I'm gonna step outside of that for a little bit. Yeah. Like, that's brave. Yeah. Well, it feels great to think about it. But I'm gonna do a couple days in May as well of just going to a wedding, and I'm taking an extra Friday, but Okay. Or Thursday, Friday. But, yeah, I I I appreciate the language you're giving me of, like, probably what makes me so tired is that I'm scared, and I just keep getting to do the brave thing. I said to a friend this morning, like, she was talking she runs a business as well, and we were talking about it. And and I said, the gift of being 40 and not 20 doing this is 20 year old Annie would have picked one. Either be brave and put your head down and be fine Yeah. Or be scared and run away. 40 year old Annie goes, I am brave and scared. Yeah. What does 60 year old Annie say? I don't think she's scared of anything. Maybe she is. It feels like Oh, no. See, that's that's not true. You're gonna still be scared of things at 60. Yeah. Maybe you're right. You're right. Because she was like Annie say say back to you, like, hey. I remember you at 40 and Yeah. I I think she'd say, this is if I'm listening to myself, I think she would say, you know this is exactly what you wanna do. Like, of course it's scary, but you know it's exactly what you wanna do. I mean, I wrote I need you to know in January of this year, I wrote a piece of paper. A friend of mine said, Tell me who you wanna be in ten years. And so I listed out four things I wanna be in ten years. One of them, New York Times bestseller. And one of them, I wanna be a friend and an influencer to mainstream culture. I just really, I want Jimmy Fallon to know who I am, not so he knows who I am, but because I want, when he thinks about, who can I ask this question to? I wonder if I could call Annie. And then he's just like, hey, I read this thing in the Bible, or I just have this question about life, or I wanna be that for some mainstream culture things, because I think when you can influence culture, culture influence people. I wrote all that in January, and this friend of mine, this pastor in Scotland says, Send me the list. Those are the best pastors there. Right. He's like, Send me the list. So I email him the list, and he says, Okay, we're gonna start praying that God gives you in six months what you thought you weren't gonna have in ten years. Oh, wow. And I was like, you're crazy. You know, like, that's hilarious. And then the book hit New York Times, and then all of a sudden all these Hollywood people are coming on the podcast.

You got a great publicist. Yeah. Yeah. The Lord. Yeah. But so I so as you talk to me about 60 year old Annie, I even think about January Annie. And January Annie looking at April Annie and going, you literally made a list of who you wanted to be and this was on it. Mhmm. Doesn't mean it doesn't it doesn't mean I have to ignore the fear or pretend like it's not scary. It doesn't mean I just have to be brave. It's just a good reminder to me as we're sitting here to go like, man Did you know it was gonna require this much bravery? No. Yeah. Right. You don't even But to actually get what you want requires more bravery than not getting it. I mean, isn't that true for everyone who's gotten married or had kids or who has moved to a new city or gotten a new job? I mean, it always takes more than you think it's gonna take. And so I'm I'm realizing that as we're here and and thinking through the exhaustion I feel is doing the thing that I'm longing to do with my life. Yeah. And so good. Yeah. Let's just also have breaks in places where we're not at war. Yeah. You know? But I also don't wanna be King David who's home when he should be out.

Time of year when men go to war. Right. I'm home on a couch watching a naked woman take a bath. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And I could be him too in a very different circumstance because I'm not a king. And And you're not a king. Yeah. Among all, that's the start of the differences. But yes, I want to toe that line really well of I'm at war when I'm supposed to be at war. I'm at home when I'm supposed to be at home. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I wanna learn. So I hope 60 year old Annie says, you got better at that. I'm still getting better at that. But you keep you got better at that. Yeah. So a while ago, I I called you a prophet, and you're like, I've got a prophet. Well, let me tell you what I think about prophet. Like, a prophet is a person that, speaks into culture Mhmm. And invites people to return back to who they're made to be. Oh, then I definitely am. Absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely. That's what I wanna be. Yeah. That's I I want to Prophetess. Yeah. I'll take it. Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely wanna be that. I want Like Old Testament, like, hey, y'all. You're off. Yeah. Need to come back home. That's right. And I just I I don't care. I mean, you know this about me, but I just don't care at all that, like, I don't ever wanna be in an Instagram picture with Jimmy Fallon or be you know, like, I I I'm not going after being we see that sometimes, that there's a Christian pastor or someone who gets in with and makes a mainstream culture culture and starts out as a prophet and ends up a, problem. And and so I just wanna be this behind the scenes voice that they go, man, I talked to Jennifer Garner. Man, I talked to her one time, and then I just read her book. And I wonder if I wonder if she'd get lunch with me next time I'm in Nashville. I want that kind of influence. She comes to Nashville? I don't know. That's why I'm just speaking it. Just making it happen. So You're like, where do we go? No. Well, two two more things.

So, Atlanta United or Nashville FC? That's hard for me, but I'm gonna go Nashville f Nashville FC. SC. Nashville SC. Nashville SC. It's so hard. Sorry. I'll send my Invisalign in. I know. Me too. No. I said it wrong too. Nashville SC. Yes. Okay. How are the Braves gonna do this year? Well, I mean, I've got my Braves shirt on. I know this. Yeah. I'm they're not starting out great. They didn't have a good run with the Phillies. I think the Phillies are going to be formidable this year. Yeah. I think that's gonna be a continuation of a problem we've had for decades. I I think we've got all the players in place. Can they be cohesive by July and by August? I hope so. Yeah. I think this is a time of year where we watch and see who's fun to watch. And I mean Panda. The oh. Oh. Right? I just yeah. I just can't get enough of them. And so all of them. And so I think we have a real shot. I'd like for us to win the World Series. Also, can we talk about it being called the World Series when no other countries compete? Well, they can't compete with us. Oh, okay. Quote that, everybody. Put that on your social media.

Of course, we have it. We have not won a a World Baseball Classic ever. No. Right. Right. Right. But we win the World Series every year. So, yeah, I'd love to see it go hard. There's no narcissism at its best. That's right. It's not like the World Cup where actually everybody can win. Right. That's right. And we suck in that. That's right. Did you see The US didn't even make the Olympics? Again. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think, the fourth Olympics we've not made. I feel like it's 2002 or something. We actually have some of the most talented players at What's the what happened? They need you. Can you get up there? Well, it's yeah. It's I'm not their solution. But the solution is is actually us getting on an international schedule. So all the other players in the world are on the same schedule Yes. Except, MLS players. Mhmm. And, so we're never fit in tournament time because we're just getting into season or we're just coming out of season, and that's when the other breaks. Problem. But because we're owned by, NFL owners Uh-huh. They're never that it's gonna be hard for them to,

compete with their own pocketbooks. Yes. And so there's it's just all about it's about the money. I mean, really So So they don't care about us going to the World Cup because we're all going to MLS games now. Yeah. And so as more of our players go to Europe and play in Europe, we'll have a better chance because they'll be on the same schedule Yeah. As the rest of the world. Yeah. That's the best that's the best. Young guys to Europe. That's good. Europe keeps sending their best old guys to us. Fine. I'll pay to see all the old guys. CDG, of course, I wanted to see him play in person. So yeah. That's fun. That's, I think I think that's all I had. Do you have any questions for me? Twice. Yeah. So that was a surprise for me, and I learned a lot today. You're you are you're very gifted at what God's brought you to do on this planet. So I'm thankful. Trying to figure to know God's people and their story. That's what I call it. That's really good. Well, thank thank you for helping me tie those things together too. Yeah. It was fun. Thanks, Hayden. Appreciate it.

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