Relationship is Healing: Finding Support and Change in Therapy

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey. This is Stephen James with Sage Hill. So glad you're listening to this version of the Sage Hill podcast. We've got Phil Herndon and Alex Deary from Sage Hill Murfreesboro. Our partners out there are doing this podcast this week. They're such great guys. They always have a good bit of humor and a good bit of wisdom to offer. I I hope you enjoy it. And remember, Sage Hill's here here to help. If there's anything you need, please reach out to us. Hey, everybody. This is Phil Herndon with Sage Hill Counseling here in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. I am joined today by my partner, my friend, colleague, Alex Derry. Hey, Alex.

Hey, Phil. So, Alex and I are partners here at Sage Hill business. I we're also, like, you know, partners in joining in the work together here with our community, and we're just frankly having a great time serving Murfreesboro and surrounding area and doing it together. And Alex talks to me about business, and I pretend like I know what he's talking about. And I nod really well, and Alex is like the guru with the numbers. And and, he says stuff about business, and I go, that's great, Alex. And then we go on, start our community. So I'm so grateful for you, and, we get to do it together. So so topic today, we've I know on the Sage Hill podcast, we've covered some specific territories through the years, like anxiety and depression and COVID and isolation and and, so so helpful. The the Sage Hill team that have done those are just really great little podcast. So today, we wanted to cover a little bit of a more general territory. Alex, like, I guess you could kind of entitle this, what does really good therapy look like? Good healthy therapy look like. So Yeah. Kinda settled on that. Like, you know, lots of people are seeking therapy these days and because we you know, 2020 was rough. And in some ways, what it did, Alex, it just kinda kind of exposed what's always been going on, you know, high levels of anxiety. Yeah. For sure. Things addictively to make ourselves okay with how much fear we've all had. And so,

come on just Well, in the trauma the trauma of 2020. You know? It's like everybody's hurting in some way. You know? Yeah. This this thing is just licked in the curtain of how much hurt there's been. Yeah. So, you know, we think about therapy. We we use that word a lot, Alex, like being therapeutic and going to therapy. The the word therapeutic is a Latin word. It means curing or healing. It's actually from a Greek root that means to treat or to cure. And there's kind of a cool relationship with the word theropon, with the theropon, which means attendant. I thought it was really cool. Like, good therapy is attending to the hearts of people. And, well, you and I, of course, we talk about that every day. The whole Sage Hill team does. We every day Sure. Our conversations are around, hey. How can we be therapeutic? How can we attend to people well? And so as you and I talked about this, you you used this phrase I want you to talk about. You you said, yeah, man. That's like the territory, the support change continuum. So that's a big phrase, but, like, if you would just kind of vamp around on that for a little bit. Support change continuum in therapy.

Well, I think, like, if you think about the goal of therapy and you think of this continuum where on one side is, a place of support and then on the other side is a place of change. And these are really two, kinda ends of the spectrum of what therapy can look like. And, yeah. So just thinking about, well, what makes good therapy? Well, you think of these two kind of considerations that people are coming in probably looking for something somewhere on that continuum. You know, whether they're coming for to therapy for a place, just to be cared about or heard or, not alone anymore or they're coming into therapy because they want their life to be completely different and they wanna be challenged and have a, an outside perspective. And I think, as therapists, we often find ourselves leaning towards one part of that spectrum as well. Like, we either tend towards wanting to just offer care or wanting to just offer change, you know, which often comes in the form of maybe being more confrontive. But it's just a really important, I think, consideration. And, honestly, I think, something to be aware of as somebody coming into therapy, to be aware of, like, what is it I'm looking for, from the therapist that I'm seeing? You know, and, yeah, I don't know.

What are you thinking about that, Phil? Yeah, man. I think that that's such a great thing. Like, if you're listening to the podcast and you're considering, like, you're thinking someone's told you or you woke up one morning and went, man, I need some help. I'm I'm Yeah. I'm depressed or anxious. Right? I just can't stop drinking or pornography or whatever it is. Like, what a great question for people to know to ask. Like, okay. As it stands right now, do I need someone to really just listen to me, unpack this stuff, or do I need someone to kinda show up in this with me and confront me and challenge me about some things? Yeah. Obviously, the process involves both and Yeah. You know, grasp Well, it has to be both.

Yeah. Yeah. It has to be both. Like, you know, if you get just one of those, it's it's not helpful. Do you know? Like, if you come to therapy and you, only get cared about, you know, like, someone sits and likes you all day and smiles at you and cries with you. And and that that actually is so, so valuable. Like, I'm not not to diminish the power of just sitting with somebody and and caring and loving them because that that honestly is probably the biggest ingredient in change. But if it if there is no confrontation ever, if there is no feedback ever, then I think that it's not effective. I don't is that is that too strong to say? You know? So yeah. So that you have to have both. I I kinda jumped in and interrupted you. It can't just be one or the other, you know, of just support, just change.

Yeah. Reminds me so much of, you know, Dan Allender's work. He he talks about four characteristics of love, and one of them Yeah. The lighting and the presence of the other, which would be the support. Right? And then there's willing to stand in the way of the other. Willing to hurt but not harm the other. That that's that Oh, gotcha. Part. Right? Like, so so great therapy, and it's such a fluid process. I've been doing it for years. You've been doing it for years. I've been a lot of therapy through the years. You've had Yes. Years. Right? Yeah. It's so important to know that I'm gonna be sitting with someone. Like, if you're listening to this podcast and you're considering therapy know you need to do it. Like, what a you I think you so beautifully outlined it, Alex. Like, I I I do I do want someone to empathize with my lot in life. I do want someone to cry with me and laugh with me. Yeah. And then I also need that person, that therapist to courageously step into my story with me and say, hey. We need to talk about this. This is Yeah. You may feel hurt when I say this to you, but you need to hear this.

Yeah. I I mean, I remember in my own kind of recovery story and journey, like and I saw a a number of, a few different therapists through that process that there was one particular therapist that changed my life so much because of his ability to do both parts of that spectrum. Mhmm. That that I I can recall stories where I felt like this person said the hardest, maybe meanest thing that I've ever heard someone say to me. Yeah. And then right at the end of that, with tears in his eyes, he just sat with me. Do you know? And it was like that marrying of somebody that was willing to struggle and push, but also care. That changed my life. Truthfully changed my life. You know? And the therapy before that really was the other side of the spectrum. I had somebody that just sat and listened and let me talk and, you know, never really pushed me. Mhmm. You know?

And that is so if you look at that, you know, let's kinda help us segue into, you know, we just created some bullet points in the we're gonna talk about four things in particular. You know, there are probably 4,000 things that go into really, like, effective healthy therapy, but that's a great segue into, you know, what you just described. That's what healthy parents do. Healthy parents support and love and cry with, and they step in and say, hey. This is harmful. This is where this has to stop. This is this is where you're messing up. This is what I'm angry at you about. This is what I fear you're gonna move more into, which I guess, is kind of a segue for us thinking about that support change continuum. Like, one of the bullet points underneath that to be looking for in therapy is, like, going going into therapy and working with someone who has the courage to to talk about and really emotionally process your family of origin story. Like, we come from somewhere, and that's real tender territory. You know, we're really protective of our families, and those are the people that raise in. It's so scary sometimes. It feels like such betrayal to start talking about where I come from, but I really need I needed you're not talking about this a lot, just on a personal level. I needed some to walk into that territory with me courageously, kindly, and firmly to walk me in the territories I didn't wanna walk into and then to walk with me on that support side as I talked about those painful things.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. You know? And I think I think that is such a delicate area of our stories to walk because and and I see this all day with with the clients I sit with so often, especially in early stages of therapy, we're walking with people in territory that they spent most of their life, either not thinking about or, or honestly thinking that was really good. You're not it's like avoiding or being blind to maybe some of the realities that they've lived in. And it's such a delicate area where it's it's not helpful to tell somebody, hey. You're blind. Do you know? It confront of. Right? You push change, you know, so to speak, take a leg off from under them, from the table and just watch it fall. You know? Like, that's not helpful. Do you know? And it it's not helpful either to just say, you know, a group be agreeable. Do you know? So, again, we're looking at that continuum. We're walking into this really delicate, hard part of our story. You know?

Yeah. It reminds me so much kind of in a as a second point. So under this umbrella of support change continuum, you know, crying with me and confronting me, so to speak. Yeah. Whole idea about, okay. I'm gonna need to talk through really and surely process through feelings and experiences and trauma and and great things. So in order to do that, as you as you've really beautifully described, Alex, that requires the kinda, I guess, kinda the second bullet point of safety. Like, I need emotional to do what you've been describing. I need safety, and safety just simply means I need to recognize that the person my therapist sitting across from me is highly invested in my welfare. Yeah. That he or she cares about me and as they walk with me, as my therapist walks with me through my story, am I safe? My therapist may say things to me I feel angry about or hurt about or I may feel shame or guilt, but do I have an ongoing recognition that my therapist is looking out for my welfare?

I think of it, that's so important, safety. And it it's so easily, misdefined as having no feelings. You know? Like, culturally, like, if you say anything that someone has feelings about, it's like, oh, well, that person's not safe. Yeah. And and we say this so much, and I'm sure you've said this too, like, in group therapy where there's so many feelings often happening that, like, safety really means that you can have all of your feelings, and you can share all of your feelings out loud, and you won't be made to pay for it. You won't be abandoned for it, and you won't be harmed for it. You know? That truthfully is safe to be you and to share all of you. That is a I would love to bottle that and see it. That's so well said. Like, it's exactly right. Like, I can do that kind of all rep goes in the territory of our need for security, you know, and the need for security. He says, I can struggle out loud with you. And you said so beautifully, I will not reject you. I will not punish you. I will not abandon you. Yeah. While you talk about the mash up of family of origin trauma and other types of trauma. What's needed in therapy. Like, hey. Hey, Alex. Hey, Phil. Hey hey, whomever. You know? This is my story, and can I really get sloppy with this thing? And will you firmly, truthfully, and kindly, graciously walk me through this? And can I kinda be a mess? Yeah. Sure. Can I not do it right? And can I not even do it well? And can I be irritable? And can I be scared? And can I do these things with you, and will you firmly, wisely guide me through those days even if you have to kinda take my shoulders and turn them in a different direction for me to see something? Yeah.

Yeah. And, man, that that changes people because that's not what we got often growing up. Do you know? It's like if I tell the truth, if I if I confront you, if I have feelings, like like us in our childhoods, you know, it's like we're either a problem or we get, someone's disappointed in us, which means that they've got no time for us now. You know? Right? Again, punished, rejected, or abandoned. You know, like, golly. So powerful. Yeah. I mean, you know, again, listeners to to the podcast, if you're in therapy now or you're considering or anything else, like, if you if you just prepared for for therapy by looking at and thinking about and writing about those three things, where did I experience punishment for having feelings? Where did I experience abandonment? You know, where did I experience rejection? Like, where was I shamed for being a human? Like, what a great what a great gift to your therapist for you to already be looking at those things and paying attention to what you feel about those things as you enter the process with with a therapist. So Yeah. That so we've we've under this umbrella of support, change, continuum, you know, we've really hit on something fam with the courage to walk in my family of origin story and and and the need for safety and security. And just really kinda one more territory that I wanna talk about that's you know, I'm grateful. There's been more talk about this lately. And this is the word attachment. Like, you know, Johann Hari did this really great TED talk, and it was probably the greatest title in the history of TED talks. It's everything you thought you knew about addiction is wrong.

And he was like That's a hook. I'm like, what? Like, tell me. I wanna know. Oh, it's so great. He's got, like, you know, 20 gazillion views, but his whole point in the talk is Yeah. And he starts out by saying, like, I'm old enough to remember that you're not old to remember. I'll I'm old enough to remember Vietnam. Like Yeah. There was this whole thing where, man, these guys in Vietnam, they're they're on heroin and opium. And, gosh, man, when this war is over, these guys come home, we're gonna have people laying in the streets Yeah. Out on heroin. Like, it didn't happen. And so he's Yeah. His theory his his talk was all around okay. So addiction is not just about taking drugs and hooking us in a reward center and okay. So now I'm hooked forever. It's like, there's gotta be more to this. And so as I won't run the talk, but the whole talk is around no. The We need to do a podcast about this.

That's that'd be a great thing to talk about. Hey. Stay tuned, everybody. Yeah. No. I really would be. Sorry. Yeah. But Yeah. So, you know, his his his bottom line was the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is attachment. Yeah. Addiction. And so, like, we come into therapy, we take that paradigm, take that filter, and say, hey. The opposite of trauma is not good ways to manage my trauma. The opposite of trauma is attachment. It is coming into my therapist office and being attached in in that support change continuum. Am I attached? Yeah. Meaning, does he or she, my therapist, you know, does she show up with me in all of this with her own story? Not not the therapy being about the therapist's story, but does my therapist have a grasp on her story, on his story that has enabled them to show up with me and mine.

I I remember, when I was first starting as a therapist, and I was sitting down with Stephen James. And, part of my story is I spent my whole life not wanting to feel pain. Do you know? And and I remember Stephen, kinda looking at me slightly concerned. He's like, is this guy gonna make it? Does he have what it takes? Like, now he didn't say that then, but, he's later since told me that. I am a little surprised. Didn't say it then, honestly. Well, maybe he did, golly, you know, knowing him. But, I didn't I don't remember that part. But what I remember is, and this honestly is part of my own fears. Like, golly, like like, I've gotta be willing to face as a therapist, I've gotta be willing to face my own pain and my own story in order to actually sit with other people in theirs. Do you know? And so so much of and I think that's so much of what makes good therapy is sitting with the therapist who isn't just trying to fix you. Right? That but but because if they're trying to fix you, that's that's that's evidence of their unwillingness just to be with you. Yeah. Do you do you know what I mean? Mhmm. And that that the more of their own story that they're willing to face and walk through in their own personal recovery, the more they have to offer and the more capacity, they have to be with the people they're with. Yeah. And that was true for me.

Gosh. Me too. I'm just thinking back on, among my first of my many orres into, getting therapy, going to a therapist Yeah. It was fairly early on in in my formal my formal 12 step recovery. I remember going to to my therapist, and, I was talking about something. And Yeah. You know, family of origin story, I suspect. I don't really remember, but I remember looking up. I was looking down so full of toxic shame. Like, I I literally did not look her in the face. I was looking down and I looked up. I was telling a story, I'm sure, about missing trauma. And when I looked up, she was just looking at me with tears in her eyes. Yeah. Wow. I've never had this experience, and I was I'm I'm gonna say, you know, 28 or so years old. And yeah, I remember thinking like and I don't remember any of the words, but the message was, no, Phil. I I'm attached to you. I care about you, and this story is affecting me. Forget the things on the wall. Forget the initials behind the name. In my humanness, I'm listening to your story, and we are attached emotionally. I'm in this story with you. And when you leave here, this is going to have affected me too. Like, god, I'm I'm remembering your story. So that attachment piece and, again, we kinda go circle back to family of origin story. Like, in my story, my my addictions, of which I have many, my my anxiety, depression, my unhealthy relationship patterns, all of those things can be traced back to ultimately unattacked being unattached emotionally. So Yeah. When I began when I recognized that in in in her her name is Nica. When I, recognized that in Nica, it was you you said earlier on about your experience. It was life changing for me. Like, oh, I didn't say these words then, but I'll look back and go, oh, that was attachment.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, when you think of, like, kids, right, and what kids need in a parent, it's like that. I can have all of my feelings. I can be all of me. I can be too much, and you're not going to leave me. You're not gonna abandon me. You're not gonna make me pay for it. Do you know obviously, there's appropriate boundaries, right, containment and such, but that is that's that grounds back to safety that creates the ability for attachment. You know? Yeah. It really does. You know, we all these kind of bullet points we've covered so far today, you know, they all they all, in some ways, under the umbrella support change idea, in some ways, they all kind of end up in the same well of attachment. You know, it's like Yeah. Where I've heard many people Chip used to say this a lot in in treatment with our guys. I'm like, hey, guys. We are impaired in relationship, and we are repaired in relationship. Oh, yeah. Bridge between the two, secure attachment. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Back to will this person listen and cry with me, laugh with me, talk with me, and will they confront me? Will they support me, and will they walk with me in painful change? And my ability to trust, my ability to walk in week after week is gonna have a whole lot to do with am I experiencing emotional attachment. And then that's one thing said. That's one thing you and I do, you know, with our with our staff here is, like, many and, you know, we we've got community in about, you know, a half hour. And, like, one of the things we we do as we gather as a team is, like, we make sure that it's not just a, okay. We do check-in, blah blah blah. But, like, that check-in is sometimes forty five minutes and sometimes twenty, but it's it's designed around making sure people know if you're walking in here with something that we could call impairment. If you're walking in here with you're carrying something, this is the place to talk about that without being fixed or punished or rejected or abandoned. Even as a staff team, you know, we say to you, we're we're looking at these people that we sit in the staff meeting to say, what's going on inside that therapist has a whole lot to do with what happens in those sessions. Yeah. Make sure we're paying attention to how attached we are to self and that we are to others and that we are the god of our understanding.

Love, attachment, it's relationship. That's what heals people. Yeah. It really does. Relationship relationship heal people. That's a really good place to wrap up. You know? I Yeah. You know, normally speaking, like, I'm sitting at home, and I'm thinking about, hey. I I think I need some therapy. My friends are telling me I need some help. I'm like, I'm gonna yeah. Okay. Relationship is healing, and love is expressed in the context of relationship. And I know I need support, and I know I need change. And what is my experience with being rejected, punished, or abandoned, you know, for having feelings? What a great, like, starter kit to begin the therapy process. So Yeah. It's a great place to end. So anything anything on your mind and heart around, you know, healthy therapy that that you need pressing up against your breastbone that you wanna say before we wrap up.

I think that's it. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Hey, Alex. Thanks, man. Love doing this with you. So good to do with you, Phil. Alright. I'll see you soon. Yeah. Hey. Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.