Finding Hope in Beauty

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey. This is Stephen James. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast. Got a great friend on today's podcast. Her name is Maggie Anthony. And if you listened to the podcast a few weeks ago with Dane Anthony, who's Maggie's husband, this will help you get a little bit better picture of who they are. But Maggie is a friend, of over twenty five years. She's a woman of wisdom. It has a lot to offer and just a general conversation today. So grateful that that she agreed to do this. You're gonna hear us talk about, one of her equations in life is that beauty equals hope and how we encounter and embody the holy in in life, and that there's a simple, essential way of living that we each need to discern for ourself and the responsibility we each have to make the world beautiful. So I hope you enjoy it. And, if you need anything that we can help with, please let us know. We're here to help.

Hey, Maggie. Hi, Stephen. How you doing? Good. Thank you for coming into my office today to do this HO podcast. Yeah. I've been looking forward to it. What have you been looking forward to? I've not been looking forward to being with you. Oh. Because we never get to talk. Yeah. I always have to share you with everybody. Now you're sharing me with whoever might be listening. That's right. Which y'all are welcome. This is just Maggie. Your husband Dane was on a podcast a few weeks ago Yeah. Where we did one on poetry. Yeah. Did you hear that? I did. You talked about me and then What did we say? What did I say? You said, we're gonna have Maggie in a few weeks and you went and something like, she's a little unpredictable.

Yeah. I see. That's a good word. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say I would not use the word predictable to to find Dane. I would say steady. Steady. Consistent. Yep. Like, trustworthy. And I would not say untrustworthy or inconsistent, but, like, spontaneous, adventurous. Whimsical in a good way, not in a flighty way. I like that. Like, I would say that's you. Thank you. I like that. I've known you since nineteen ninety six, seven. The first time I met you was you were was it at the some book events? No. First time we met was at your house after an evening in December. It was the first time we met your house in Bellevue. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You don't remember me. I don't. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Heather and I would have been married but a minute. Wow. And she was interning at Daystar. Wow. And after evening December, like, all the staff came over to To our house. To our house. Yeah. Yeah. And because you and Heather shared an office. That's right. It's Stacy Brzenka too. Was she in the same Were all y'all in the same hole? It's a clot it was a closet. Y'all shared a closet. Yeah. So that was, like, 96 or 97. Stephen. And our relationship has had many iterations Mhmm. Since then. One of the things I've admired about you over the last, what's that, twenty five years, which is a long time ago Mhmm. Is, like, both from afar and up close, watching you continue to evolve and mature and pivot and expand and shrink and trust, like, who you are, like, in all of that, you know. And I want to know how you do that.

Thank you for the compliment. Yeah. That's an amazing question. How do I do that? And you're good at living out loud. I am definitely good at living out loud. Yeah. You know where you are with me. Uh-huh. I'm pretty forthright. Sometimes, maybe to a fault, but definitely People said that about me too. Yeah. I don't know why. I don't know either. I think I'm so gentle and How do I do that? I you know, Stephen, I think that there's I've asked myself that question a number of times just because of what I've been through in my life. And I've been through a lot. And I've been through a lot that's just I could've chosen I could've chosen to go crazy. I could've chosen to be bitter. But there's just something in me that at my very core that has always known that there was more. Mhmm. And the first thing that comes to my mind, I'm living in Tucson with my parents. I'm probably

six years old. Oh, wow. And This is before this Tucson was like a small town at that point. Tucson was small. Yeah. Super small. And, we had this backyard that, behind it, there was our backyard had this big brick wall and there was this gate that opened up to this empty field behind us. And it's the desert. You know, there's nothing there. Like the it's not a field like we think of in Tennessee. Right? It's a desert. It's a desert. Yeah. It's a desert. And, I remember going out there as a little girl because I was so sad. I was a very sad little girl. I had a very sad growing up. And I'm six, seven years old. I'm little. Sitting out there and there is this colony of prairie dogs. And it was my first encounter with the holy. Because the prairie dogs spoke to me and I spoke to them. And I remember going in the house and telling my family, I had a conversation with the prairie dogs and they're like, oh, she's crazy blah blah blah, you know, whole thing. But that has always stayed with me. What did you say and what did the prairie dog say? I don't remember. I just know they spoke to me. And it's in it's my first encounter with the holy. Yeah. And the holy spoke to me in that moment through these prairie dogs. And I think that's just been at the core of of my life where I've known no matter how obscure, no matter how people don't listen, you feel a little off, you're not alone. And that and that's the first thing that comes to mind when when you ask me that is how have I done that? I don't know how I've done it other than that deep knowing

that I'm not alone. Like, I'm known and I'm not alone. Yeah. Don't know what it looks like. I just know it's scarce. Which are kinda sweet. Right? Which are kinda sweet. Yeah. And a little obnoxious. Like, they overrun things. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But not in the desert. That's where they, I guess, belong. Yeah. That was the they're they're there to do. So I I really don't know how to answer that. I do remember specific instances throughout my journey and really difficult times encountering a moment encountering a moment where I was on the precipice. Yeah. And and looking into the chasm. Yeah. And know and I knowing that I had I had a choice to make. Like, I can go in there Mhmm. Or I can believe I'm not alone. Mhmm. And I always chose to go, to step away.

So it's so encouraging. Thank you. Like, that's so encouraging. Why? In what way? In the same it's encouraging in the same way it's offensive. Mhmm. Because it's encouraging because it says that we always have a choice to play in our own freedom, in our own healing, in our own participation. Like, we, no matter how hard our life gets, and I don't know if you're story to know it's been harder than most people that I know's story. We always have a choice to choose life. Yeah. To choose hope and possibility Becoming, belonging, like that Right. That kind of thing. Not even knowing where it's gonna come from. Right. So that's like so hopeful, and at the same time, it's kind of offensive because, I can imagine, that someone hearing that and saying, well, you said I should be happy or you said I should, you know, wait for God to speak to me or you said I should, like, I could hear somebody, you know, you don't understand my story. Right. Right? How dare you. Right. You know,

I could speak into that. Okay. I could say that I chose life, but I didn't tell you how messy it was after I chose it. There's no shoulds in our household. We don't should. And I'm not saying I was happy. All sorts of things going on. Biker gangs. Biker gangs. Yeah. Like Yeah. Like that. Like, not not many people know about biker gangs, but I know two people and all the thousands of people I know. I know two people that know about biker gangs. It's you and it's John Whitfield. Those are the only two people I know actually. Who's John Whitfield? The shark. Oh, but I the shark. You've heard of the shark? I've heard of the shark. Yeah. Yeah. So, he had a he and I had to get there sometime and Yeah. Chatted. Motorcyclewild.com. Yeah. Shout out to John Whitfield.

Yeah. So I chose life, but it doesn't mean I was happy. No. Happy had nothing to do with it. Yeah. It's just I chose not to die. Yeah. I yeah. It's not either or, you know, you you step away from it. It's still messy. There's still a lot to What am I to go through? Heroes and mentors, Viktor Frankl. I don't know him. It's not like he's a mentor like I know him, but, and he says the greatest freedom a human has is the freedom to choose our attitude in any given situation. Mhmm. Right? Which isn't about being happy. It's like by attitude, it's a bad German translation. It's like our freedom to interpret and make meaning of what's going on. Like to choose life. Right. You know? Right. When everything seems hopeless and like, like, the he was in concentration camps. Like, everything seems hopeless and beyond life and death is always inviting you to step into giving up. Exactly. He said, we can choose to find meaning in that Mhmm. And purpose Mhmm. In that. And I think it gets easier the older you are.

Really? I do. I really do because there's life experience. Okay. And I mean, I have enough history in my life now. I'm 70. Yeah. I turned 70 this last year. And so I have a lot of history that I can go back to and say, okay. Alright. Here it comes again. Here it comes again. And you know what? We're gonna be okay. I know how to do this. Yeah. Know how to do this. Okay, trauma. Here you go. Okay. Okay, old friend. Here we go again. But you know what? You don't you don't have me this time. Let's not leave this. I'm gonna add a different part and tell me how they go together. Okay. Your trade is like interior design work. Is that how you describe it? Like, how because that's because I don't even hesitate saying that. It's not quite that. I know. I I have struggled. People pay you money to do what? People pay me money to come and help them

in their homes. Mostly renovations. I mostly work on old homes. So how I like to say is that I get to come alongside people and help them through the process. The difficult arduous process, scary process of renovation and find themselves in the process. It's such a spiritual act for me. Yeah. And it feels like 80% of it is therapy. Yeah. And 20% of it is really creativity. So I I interact with architects. I interact with contractors. I interact between husbands and wives. Yeah. And did that for Heather or not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, ended up with a beautiful Yeah. Process Yeah. In the end, product in the end. So So you mediate creation. Like, these things are these these renovations, these buildings, these things are coming into life Right. And people have ideas about what they're supposed to be Right. And and how what they want them to be, and, what budgets allow them to be, and you mediate those processes. Yes. I think that's great. So that they're meaningful, and that they're beautiful. Yeah. You have the ability to the reason I wanna talk about that Mhmm. Was like you have this ability to look at the abyss, look at emptiness, or look at, what could be and then like kind of bring it out in there and find, like, old things to put in or Mhmm. Let's put this color on this wall because that represents this. Right. Right? It's like you don't just pick colors because they're in, name of what's a magazine that people look at that are support? I'll just say Southern Livings, but that's, like, not cool anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, whatever the the woman from Waco.

yeah. Chip and Joy. Chip and Joanna. Yeah. Right. Chip and Joy. You know, like, Chip and Joy the games. Right. Their magazine. You're not picking colors because it's in their magazine. Like, you'll you'll listen to someone. I didn't know they had a magazine. Yeah. I love that. Love that. You're too cool to know they have a magazine. But, like you'll listen to someone tell their story Absolutely. And hear about what they want and you'll go, oh, it needs to be this shade of purple or red or blue or white because you're wanting this and this is what that said in your story, this is what it means and so let's paint your baby's room this color. Right. And, like, people cry and are, like, have have a story to live into. It's so true. So one of the one of the things that I always do on a project is I we always create a narrative. What is the narrative? Mhmm. What do you want your your home to be? Mhmm. What do you how do you want experiences as a family? What how do you want people to walk in when they feel what do you wanna convey? So if somebody said, I want

everyone to think my home is pretty, that's not a client you would probably work with. I would probably say, I'm sorry I'm booked for the next fifty years. Love that. I love that. Because it has to have meaning. So in my strengths, my number one strength is strategy. Okay. So I I see the big picture. Yeah. And I see how it all connects. I can wade through the obstacles meaning for me. Yeah. So there's there's plenty of projects that have come to me that are on paper really amazing. Yeah. But it doesn't it doesn't connect. So when I'm with a client, the first thing we do is I'll meet them on neutral territory and not meet in their home because it's distracting to be in the home and to get to know each other to make sure that we work because we're in relationship for a year. And I'm in the most intimate spaces of people's homes. Yeah. And so it's gotta work for the both of us. You're in the middle of their marriages. I'm in the middle of I'm in their underwear drawers. You're in their underwear drawers. Yeah.

Yes. I mean, I remember you talking with us about, like, how we go to the bathroom, essentially. Yeah. Like, what do you want like Heather had these little cabinets built in our bathroom. Right. It's like, oh, like that's really personal like It is. How do we use the bathroom actually informs my life. Mhmm. You know? Mhmm. Yeah. That's so so you you mediate beauty and you mediate meaning in people's lives. Connect, being six, looking into the wilderness of the Mhmm. Of nothingness, of the desert, of Mhmm. What seems like life and being Mhmm. Spoken to by prairie dogs. How does that inform what you do now? I think it it what comes Or who you are now. Yeah. Yeah. What comes to my mind is this phrase that I that I use and that is beauty equals hope. And I think from a very young age, I had this awareness that if I could bring beauty into my life, whether it was reading a book or, another another story I had to tell when I was little. I don't know how old I was. Maybe seven, eight, something like that. And, my parents used to go out to dinner with these fancy friends all the time. But they would never leave me with a babysitter. I don't know why. They always took me. Cheap. I guess. And it was They took you on the fancy dinners. Always. And it you dressed up. Yeah. I mean, you really dressed up when you went out. And so I remember this one particular time specifically where these people showed up and it was one of those Cadillacs that had the gigantor Yeah. Yeah. Fins on the back, you know. And we jumped in the car and we went to this restaurant and there is this ritual that when you used to go out to dinner and that was the waiter or waitress would come and take the order, the cocktail order. Yeah. Cocktail. It was always a cocktail order. Right? And everybody ordered their cocktails. And I would order my Shirley Temple. That was my cocktail. Yeah. And then as soon as that happened, I would go to the bathroom because I wanted to see what the bathroom was like. Fancy bathrooms. Because it was if it was a pretty bathroom, I knew that we were probably gonna have a good meal. So to me, that kind of ties the two together because there is this somewhere along that somewhere along that that time of my life, there was this awareness, and I believe it was through the holy giving me beauty to nurture me, to fill me, to touch me, to give me hope. And that's one of the parts of what I do that's so spiritual to me is that to be able to work into the in the intimacy of people's homes and create beauty for them is one of the few places in this earth that we can kinda control. Right? So if you can accomplish this sense of beauty for people in their home, it it does give us hope. It gives us a a momentary reality. What a responsibility because life's hard and Life's really hard. And so to

It's really hard. Like not stepping into the abyss and, like, not stepping into crazy like, not stepping into the entitlement of suffering, like, not, like Mhmm. You know. And I'm really aware too that this is this is I'm a luxury. This isn't, you know Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is like this is not a blanket statement for people to purchase anything. No. Not at all. It's like, don't go hire someone who could redo your house. No. No. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking because I'm about to make that bridge, I think. It's like we all have a responsibility, I believe, that because life is so difficult, we have a responsibility to sow the seeds of beauty. Mhmm. How we do that, which is really sowing the seeds of hope, but I think beauty is hope. I think you're right. Like, I think that whatever is beautiful and praiseworthy and just and merciful, like think on these things because there's Exactly. Like meditate on that stuff. And so, like for you, it literally is like mediating creation of beauty. For me, it's, creating meaningful meaningful spaces for people to tell stories, tell their story. Whether it's a fire pit or a counseling practice or a leadership workshop, like what I'm doing is creating space for people to tell their story and encounter other stories and maybe be swept up in the story that's really meaningful. Right? That's what I that's my beauty. That's my art. Yeah. And I and I say what we do is exactly the same.

It looks different. Yeah. It has, you know, a different lens to it, but it's basically the same heart matter. It's getting to that place to be able to really touch people's lives. And hopefully, through the environment that you've created to be able to create space to love and hurt and heal, but feel safe somewhat. I I think we're all responsible for that. And I think we're either in that work. Mhmm. Even if we're an accountant, we're in that work. Absolutely. Yep. I agree. In our own unique gift, in our own unique passion and calling and purpose. We're either in the middle, neutral, or we're working against it. Mhmm. Like, and that's what I think evil is, is trying to come against beauty. Yeah. Trying to come against hope. Trying to, like, to pull the foundations out from it. Mhmm. And I think that's, you know but that middle ground, man, I want more people to be on our team than just trying to survive, keep their life intact. Like, how do they because I found, like, a lot of the work I've done with people over the last twenty something years has been until the last few years, like, almost a compulsion. Mhmm. Like, I was trying to work it was it's good. I think it is holy in ways, and it's also, like, compulsive. Like, I can't not do it. Right? I feel like a an anxiety to be good in the world, you know. And a lot of that comes from my story as a reaction against my story. As I have faced that more and more and grieved that more and more, as you said, I've gotten older, you know, it's like I've got some more perspective. It's like it's almost like instead of I have to, I get to. Yeah. And I get to participate. Right. I get to create meaning and beauty in places. I get to, if I don't, it's gonna be okay. Yeah. Like, I think love wins. I think Absolutely. You know. Absolutely. You know. They always feel like it, but I'm pretty sure today Dan and I talk a a lot about this and and we use the word embodiment.

K. It's an embodiment of who we are. Yeah. You know, it's like it's like getting to that point in life. I so connect with what you just said. Yeah. Because it's like, for for so long it felt outside of me. I I I felt right. Yeah. I knew I was on the right track. But there's some some moment in life where it altered for me where it was like, no. This is really truly who I am. And it shifted instead of it being outside me. I allowed it allowed what was inside to come out and trust and trusted it. I had so much fear and shame in doing what I do for so many years because I don't have a degree. Yeah. I don't have I don't do CAD. I mean, all those things. But that was my own voices. That was my old voice is speaking to me. And somewhere along the line, it shifted for me where I started believing it. There's this there's this moment that happens for me when I meet someone new. And I'm about we've gone through the whole interview process and we've decided, yeah, this is what we're gonna do. And there's that first moment that I go over the threshold into their home. And there's this nano second of, what am I doing here? I don't know what I'm doing. Am I gonna totally mess this thing up? And I take a minute and I breathe, and I just go, just just be with me now and, you know, body me now wholly and help me to be what these people need me to be. Nothing more and nothing less. And I walk in and I breathe into it and it's like, here we go. Yeah. But there's kind of that little moment. I love that. I think it's really healthy. I think it's called humility. It's really good because I I think it's I'm not God. I need to be a little scared Yeah. In some of these situations. Yeah.

Fear is the beginning of wisdom. Right? Like it it's like, woah. Yeah. And it's like you're doing it. I love the word holy, like like you're on holy ground. Yeah. Because it's what you're doing is an act a sacred act of offering yourself. Right? Yeah. That's very sacred. And so if you're not afraid, if your shoes are not off, walking barefoot, you know, on on what you know is holy ground, then you're not even aware of what's happening. Mhmm. Right? There's been times when, I used to do staging for this one, particular real estate agent. And, we would do all sorts of staging for houses, but there is this one particular home that was so beautiful. And this couple that was really well loved by a lot of people and they were going through a divorce. And it was sad. That's sad. And I remember working on this home for three or four days. And the real estate agent and I would go home and we would have to take showers because we were we were so covered with a sadness. I mean, of course, we took showers, but you know what I mean? It was just like, it it was It was more than just a shower. It was the metaphor for, like, oh my gosh, the heaviness and the tragedy and the sadness. And so you walk into these environments and because it's so holy, and I think because I'm hypersensitive Yeah. To it, you know To the meaning of it. You take it on and and what it really means. And even in the midst of that, even though it wasn't creating this, like, amazing thing, it was a deconstruction of a life and a home. It was still caring for people. Yeah. And it was hard.

Talk about the farm that y'all just bought or the land or what are we calling it? We're calling it It's it's not a farm. Okay. It's not a farm. No. It's land. It's land. It's 15 acres of trees. It's Okay. Woods. It's beautiful. You bought some woods. Yeah. We we call it Nexus. And Nexus I love the old name. What, of course, Dame called it. Right? Dame named it. And it's the coming together of everything in our lives. It's the Nexus. And it's just we are so in love with it. We're just out there this weekend. And, when we're there, man, we're just weekend. And, when we're there, man, we're just we're different people, you know, because it's quiet. It's quiet. It's still. You don't hear anything. We just dial down, and we really believe in how the trees care for us and put their arms around us. And it's we don't have electricity. We don't have water. So when we're there, it's very primitive. Yeah. But we love it. You have an outhouse? We have an outhouse. Outhouse. Yeah. We well, actually, we just got a porta potty yesterday. And I'm so excited about the porta potty. Yeah. Which this is you'll love it. It's like they start to step up. We got a porta potty. Which you will love this. I had to hang a piece of art in the back. Of course you did. But it's that's what I do. Right? It's like, okay. Here's a porta potty and it's kinda boring and you're really vulnerable here. So what if I hang a piece of art here to just make it a little little bit more comfortable? Yeah. And it works. What did you hang? Oh, that's a really cool piece of outside art that's I can't even describe to you, but it's outside art. Okay. Very bizarre. So the land so Nexus,

we are learning because, like, at 70 and 60 almost 63 Yeah. Like like Yeah. Y'all should be winding down. Right. And you're actually, like, developing a forest. Right. We are actually timber farmers. You're timber. Timber. That's so we are we are part of what's called the Green Belt. Okay. And when you're when you're part of the Green Belt, it's an actual classification. We are a timber farmer. So that's what we're gonna call ourselves. You're a timber farmer. What do you do for a living? I'm a timber farmer. Yeah. I don't really cut that many trees. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just grow them. You grow. I just grow them. You just grow them is what you do. We have trees that are over 75 years old. It hasn't been tempered in over seventy five years. It's amazing. Wow. It's really beautiful. So you've got this beautiful home here in town with this beautiful garden Mhmm. And this place called the shelter that's Dane's kinda known for. It's his place. Yeah. And and you're still dreaming about, like, in becoming what's next. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So curious. Retiring. No. We don't use that. Yeah. We don't use that vocabulary. I it it's like we feel like we're just getting it. We're so excited about this. Oh. Curiosity is just such an important, you know, thing for us. And being on the land is so incredible because we've learned we're learning so much about ourselves. We're learning about, it's not about what we can impose on the land. It's like what can the the land offer us. It has limited water. We did drill a well. We haven't pumped it yet. But it only can provide a certain amount of water. So it's like, okay. This is this is what we have. So this is what we can do. This is what we can build. And, it's a complete reversal of any kind of work that I've ever done before.

So this idea that, you said we're just I wanna go back about 10 sentences. We're just now getting it. We feel like we're just now getting it. Yeah. It's okay. So here here's what I'm thinking. That's so hopeful for me. Okay. Because there's been seasons in my life where it's like, oh, I got it. That would I'll understand now. And then and invariably, that goes away, like, because I I understood in part. Right? And now I get more complexity or I get more experience or something happens and I'm thrown into upside down world and I don't know what's going on and then I get it again. I'm intuiting and tell me if this is true. As you're aging and you're you're just now getting it, I'm intuiting that it's simpler. That there's a simplicity to what you're getting. It's less complex than you thought when you were 20 or 30 or 40 or 50. That there's something simple that you're grasping now that I'm not gonna ask you to say what it is either because I don't think you could explain it to me. Because I don't I don't know that I have ears to hear it. Sure. But I'm as you talk, you're welcome to try to explain it. Yeah. But as you talk, it makes me excited for it. Sure. And to keep learning and growing and, refining my experience in this world. Yeah. That excites me. It's almost like do my my my mantra for this year is do less, be more. Mhmm. I have so not internal I've said that thing every day, several times a day. I have not embodied it Yeah. At all. You know, it's like it's almost like I'm force feeding myself this thing that I really can't eat yet. But there's a way it feels like y'all have lived into that. Mhmm. And that that excites me. Good. It's a testimony to me. I'm scared to do it. I'm probably not gonna do it till I'm 70. But Well, you don't you don't need to do it. I probably can't do it. Hopefully. You've got we don't our children are grown and gone. You know? It's a it's a different scenario for us. Do you need some children to take care of? No. We do not take care.

Grandchildren would be good. That'd be cool. That'd be cool. So, yeah, we have this amazing home, where we live, and people look at us and say, what are you doing? Yeah. You you're supposed to retire. You're too old. Aren't you afraid? And our answer is, no. No. No. It's because it's so exciting. And our intent is to actually build and move on to the land Oh, wow. And sell our home here and and move away. Yeah. I know. See? Here you go. But it's it's it's been amazing and it's beautiful. We we absolutely love our home. There's a lot of love there, but it's time. It's time for a shift. It's it's time to move. And what we're learning about ourselves and nature and how simple life can be, we really, really want. We really wanna dial it down.

Okay. So now I'm gonna go back and connect just to the beginning of the conversation because it sounds like this idea of embracing the shift as opposed to resisting the shift. Like, the shifts in life keep coming. Mhmm. And some of the wisdom you've gained along the way is to keep embracing the next shift, like to trust that that's the holy Right. Is coming to me and delivering me through this thing. But it means I'm gonna have to let go of what I have now in order to have what it's intended for me to have or what I'm made for. Well, no. Okay. Good. That's great. Because I don't I mean, there is a certain amount of letting go. Yeah. There is. There's a grieving,

but it's not like letting go. It's like, Here's this thing that's the the thing that's in front of me, and I and I trust you, Holy. I know this is good, and I know this is right. And we're not doing this in a reckless kind of a way. We're really thinking about it and being in it, but all these other things in life are supporting it. All these things are are are supporting what's bringing us. It's it's not just this land that we bought and we decide, oh, let's do this. It's all the external things in my life and Dane's life Yeah. That are supporting that. And it's and it's You have confirmation. This is clear passage. Like, it would be, tragic not to do that. I think we would be really unhappy if we didn't do that because there's such a beautiful curiosity for us in what is waiting for us there. And we want that. And we don't I mean, I could I mean, I could get sick, right, in two years. I mean, it may not happen. Some could happen to Dane. And we talk about that. We talk about, okay. If something happened to either one of us, would we go ahead and build? And we and both of us would say, yeah. We would wanna do that because it just it really feels like the right thing to do.

Does that make sense to you? A little bit. Like, you know, it does. It does. Yeah. The I like the inclusion of, like, now with all the stuff we have is actually preparing the way for us to have this other thing. And the wisdom, my interpretation is, the wisdom is knowing, like, what to add and what to subtract, and when to add and subtract it, which means you've had to practice doing that a lot, which means you haven't gotten it right a lot. Exactly. And you've gotten it right enough some Right. That you learned the lessons from it. Yeah. I think one of the things that Dana and I have become really good at is holding things loosely. I think that's imperative because we don't own anything. We really don't own anything. We don't own our bodies. We don't own our children. We don't own our homes. You know, there really, there really is a surrender to the holy and what the holy has for us. And acknowledging that and living fully into that that gives us the peace and the confidence to be able to navigate and move and hold things loosely. We always say, we can create beauty wherever we are. You know, if we got a dumpy apartment, we'd make it beautiful. Yeah. And we know that. But I think that's just through life experience and knowing that that's just as as easy as I breathe. I know that's true.

Thanks, Maggie. Yeah. So good. Yeah. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.