Loneliness & the Human Experience

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, everybody. Stephen James here at Sage Hill. Thank you so much for joining us for the Sage Hill podcast. I've got a guest on today, Kathy Boerzel, who is the cofounder of the Allender Center in Seattle, Washington, which is a part of the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, where I went to graduate school a long time ago, and it was called something else. And Kathy went to school there too. And over the last decade or so, she has helped, build the Allender Center with Dana Allender. She is brilliant. She's so smart. I kinda get caught up in a in the conversation will beget a little bit and forget that I'm the host of the podcast. And, so I get kind of I'll kinda lose myself halfway through, but she's a really smart person, really insightful, has a lot of knowledge about the human heart. We talk specifically about the categories of of being an orphan, being a stranger, and being a widow, being a basically, what how loneliness impacts the human experience. She's written a book with Dan Allender called, Redeeming Heartache that's out now. It came out in September. We referenced that in there. It's it's a really good book. I've since gone back and read the book, since we recorded the podcast, and, it's been really encouraging to me. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Kathy and I. And if, you know, if there's anything that you need, I want you to know that Sage Hill is here to help. Hey, Kathy. Hi. Thank you for being on the Sage Hill podcast.

Yes. Thank you for having me. What a what a fun a fun thing to do today. What what makes it fun? Oh. Because I'm a little I'm a little nervous. Are you nervous? Yeah. A little bit. You know, I I love I love talking. I'm quite loquacious. I like talking to interesting people, and and so this is just this is one of the the perks to to my job right now is getting to talk to people. So I'm excited. Well, could you give us a little bit more color commentary around what the Allender Center is that you helped cofound and what's the work that y'all do in the world and why that's important? Yeah. So, you know, Dan Allender has been doing this work for a long time. For those of you who know Dan, he's a psychologist and, professor. He founded, the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and has written a lot of books, including, The Wounded Heart and blah blah blah. But, Dan has really worked hard in his career on on understanding, sexual abuse and trauma and how that impacts our minds, our bodies, and our spirituality and our relationship to God's self and others. Right? And, but what what he came up with is a way to use story to really understand where trauma has been embedded in our hearts and minds and and how to actually go back to some of those core stories in order to receive healing. So so much of our lives, we, back away from the stories that are most harmful to us because it's painful to go back. And and really what what he's coined and what we've come around him on is the idea that it is exactly through those stories that healing can occur and that our bodies are screaming to go back to the origin stories of our harm and our trauma and that as we can honor those stories and go back, there's actually healing to be had. And we found that over and over again. And so I started because I was a student of Dan's at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I was a psychology student, and I found so much healing in my own story by doing work with him. And then I realized he's he's pretty good at at doing the work. He's not awesome at explaining

what he does. No. He used to actually he's a yeah. He's good at doing great at doing the work. He's an incredible storyteller. And he's a genius, like, in making symbols that make sense of really complex things. Yes. But actually getting there ordering any of that is not his gift. No. Yeah. It's not. And so as a student, I started to get a glimpse of how to order it, really. And so I was able yeah. So that's why I I cofounded it with Dan because I was able to take his his work and then say, okay, Dan. What you're doing here is this, this, and this. This is how we can break it apart. This is how we slow it down. And these are the concepts that that you're teaching. And so the way that it started is that I, in his class, I took as a first year at the school, I I created a study guide on his material called and I'm gonna make sure to have you in my group. I know. I'm telling you. We and and so I created this matrix, which is basically what the book is based off of. So Dan and I wrote this book called Redeeming Heartache. It came out this this in September, and it's all based on the matrix. And so what I did was order and then put some depth and connect a lot of his concepts into a way that other people could take and then learn from. And, and so so that's I so I and I showed it to him. So we all got A's on the final after I designed this thing. And and they were like, what's going on? And then I showed it to him and he's like, I is this what I teach? I'm like, oh, yeah. This is this is what you teach, but he didn't know it. And then from then on, I started teaching, a portion of his class every year. And then when I graduated, we realized that there was something to this and that this methodology was important enough to concretize, to to put some structure around, and then bring it out into the world in a way that where other people could access it and learn from it. And we did that, you know, eleven years ago.

And and all of that. So the Allender Center is, like, it's adjacent to the the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. Yeah. And and it, mostly, you train therapists and other people, helpers, and, like, how to be better at what they do Mhmm. Through this Linda story and through through through your matrix. So this is where I have to insert some piano reads joke because you you said the word matrix. I know. It's a there's the joke, and everyone can laugh. Yeah. The bigger joke is that when I started teaching this, the matrix was, like, still a really cool relevant film. And so if that says anything about I've aged out. But now a new matrix is coming out over Christmas. I'm very excited about it. Oh, really?

Yes. I can't wait. I know. Us Jedi's are, like, first at the box office. You know? Yeah. Yeah. That was a that was a good movie back in the day. My kids think it's hilarious. I think kinda Reeves is, like, every movie he's in, it must be a comedy or some kind of, like, satirical thing because he's such a bad actor. No. I can't even I love Keanu Reeves. I love that guy. I do too. Yeah. I like what's the what's the bus one where they ride the bus around and then there's a bomb? Speed. Speed. With Sandra Bullock. Yeah. Sandra Bullock. Of course. Yes. I know. Love speed. I do too. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. So you do, like, really important work. That's awesome. And and you you bring order out of chaos. Yeah. And you help okay. That's that's great. I need that. We were talking kinda getting to know each other a little bit, and I confess that we've actually never met, but it sounds like we we should meet. We like, we actually know so much around each other that, and we started talking before we started recording. It's like, I'm I I started getting nervous because there's this person on the other the other end of this call, this video call that, like, I really wanna impress because she's so smart, and she's done and, really, it's like, wow. I was asking you some questions, and you were, like, explaining stuff to me. It was really important. One of the things you brought up, was orphan, stranger, and widow. Right? Orphan, a widow, and alien. Right? As archetypes. So that's like I've I've started, like, a step d in the conversations. Now we're gonna back it up. If you go, what what do you mean by that, and why are those frameworks important? Okay. Yeah. I wanna understand what that that means. I think archetypes are, like, super helpful ways for us to understand things. Right? These bigger symbols. Mhmm. And one of the things I'm learning about myself, you know, I've done thousands of hours of individual group therapy, marriage counseling. I have immersed myself in this personally. Right? Mhmm. And then have done thousands upon thousands of hours of walking with people in that in in that setting. And I'm just now learning this major thing in my life that I wish I'd have known twenty years ago, which is, I'm not one of you. Right? It's this massive thing in my life. Right? Mhmm. And so when you all start hearing, like, orphan, okay, I get that one. Stranger. Alright. Like like, I I identify with those wounds. Mhmm. And and how I've coped with my own heartache, you know, and how I've also found a way to redeem and play in the world through that through that. So, that's where I wanna end up. Right? This middle point is, like, those of that language, but can you help us get there? Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I can try. I I wrote a book about it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's see if you can get it. If I just spit out some words, like, chaotically, you'll create something out of it that's more beautiful than what I could've created. So Oh my gosh. The pressure. I'm gonna start sweating through my silk shirt now. I know this is such a, okay. So yes. Well, let let me go back to even where we started. So so as soon as I said the word matrix, you thought of a story, didn't you? Yes. And then we started talking about the the matrix, the movie, and then speed. And immediately, we are in a part of our lives. Like, I could remember who I was when I first watched The Matrix. Right? I was in college. And and then, like, speed and and watching that with friends in the college dorm room and you know? Mhmm. And and so as soon as you start talking about almost anything in your life, it transports you to story. We are storied beings. And and part of how we make sense of our lives is through stories is through movies and films and literature. And and I think the you know, so you you use the word archetype, and for those of you who are familiar with archetype, but for those of you who aren't, archetype is really, the sense of of a character that is a universal experience of the human condition. And archetypes are very helpful, because they're they're parts of who we are as human beings that that most of us can relate to to some degree or another. And so in scripture so Jung, you know, a psych he is the one who did a lot of work around archetypes. Right? And and it's so helpful because you you look at these different archetypes of the king, the warrior. Magician, lover. Yeah. Magician, lover. Right? All these things. And and it starts to help us understand different parts of ourselves, and it gives us handholds to start to make sense of who we are in the world, what's happened to us, and how do we make sense of it. And I think that's really what what most people try to do. For I'm gonna interrupt you because I love that you just had this Freudian slip where you said in scripture,

young like, you Oh, hysterically. Oh, it makes me so happy, actually. Oh, blasphemous. I'm gonna get in trouble with that one. No. You know? But I so well, what I was gonna say is is that scripture has archetypes, but but so many people, like, after scripture, before scripture, like, we are are we tell our story in myths. That's Yeah. That's part of and that's how we make sense of ourselves. And that's also how scripture has made sense of And by myth, you don't mean like, you and I know that word means, like, something that's more true. It's like this it's a a myth is not something that's false. It's something that's actually more true than the facts. Right? That's right. Like, it's it's this thing that, like, Luke Skywalker is a mythic figure. Right? He represents all this stuff, right, in Star Wars. I'm a huge Star Wars fan. So Yeah. So I always bring the conversation back to Star Wars for me. Excellent. But but, like, George Washington is like a missing figure in America. Right? And he chops down the cherry tree, you know, which is this Garden of Eden story. Right? Yeah. It's it's like where he cannot tell a lie. He cuts down a tree, and his father finds them in the garden. It's like it's almost exactly like the Garden of Eden story. Right? And Yeah. So you tell these mythic stories about people that sum up, they're they're more true than Absolutely. Well and, again, they're universal.

And so it's like, you know, you can tell a specific biographical story about someone, but if there's truth to it, it's about, you know, your story, but it's also about a a lot of other stories as well, which is why story Yeah. Is is so powerful because we all you know, there there's so many things that happen to us where we go, oh, yeah. That happened to me too. And then we understand ourselves better by hearing more stories, and it helps us, you know, not feel so alone. It's it helps us orient, you know, our ourselves and and then also figure out how do we actually move towards healing. Right? So fairy tales, myths, you know, stories that again, it's why what what did we all do during the pandemic? We binged Netflix and Amazon and Apple TV and all the things. Like So maybe you could connect another conversation,

tiger tiger guy and Ted Lasso. Tiger King and Ted Lasso. Because I I am pretty bad. There's a connection there. Those are both Yes. Like, the same character. Oh, aren't they? And and, again, because they they establish something of hope, they they give us the sense of of who we are, who we could be. So flawed. So flawed. So, you know, so I so if we go back so let me let me try to bring us back to origin, stranger, or widow. You know, so in scripture, there are three, archetypes that scripture talks about a lot that are basically core wounds of who we are and what we experience in the world, and that's orphan, stranger, and widow. And in in the, and often in scripture, it's saying you need to take care of

the orphan stranger and the widow. You know? These are the least of these. These are the These are the people without any status. These are without any safety net, without any any way of being cared for in the old world. Yes. Yeah. And so what what Dan and I do in this book is basically say, you know, if these are the least of these in terms of of, like, a cultural structure, they're also the least of these in our internal structure. And and when we experience a fallen world, when we experience harm and heartache, which is unavoidable, we experience it. Yeah. You know, there are lots of ways to experience it, but what we've looked at are these three different ways that what we do. So the orphan has experienced lack of protection. We are all meant to be in this world and have and be protected. That's how we're built. We're built to come into the world being in incredibly fragile. We we need immediately. Right? We're we're we one of the only species where when a newborn is born, they they have almost zero capacity of taking care of themselves.

Isn't that awesome? It it is awesome. Like, the the thing that makes us so great as humans is that. Like And it and it also makes us the most vulnerable. And so yeah. Right? It's all well, it's wonderfully and all it's wonderfully awful and wonderful. Yes. Awfully wonderful. We are born in, incredibly vulnerable to harm and to lack of attunement, and and we need care. And so an orphan, you know, you can be an actual orphan where you've actually lost your parents, but so many of us are are heart orphans where what we need from our caregivers was not available to us, either through their trauma or or circumstances. But somehow, we learned quickly that what we most needed was not going to be available to us, whether that's emotionally or physically. You know, and and then you have to make decisions even at a young age. So if you look at research for for orphans that were actually abandoned by their parents or their you know, when when they're in in a facility, they don't cry for very long. Like, quickly, they learn that when no one comes, the crying isn't helpful, and they stop. So even preverbally, we learn quickly that no one is coming. Or

the or oh, go ahead. Yeah. No. No. It's, I'm just thinking. Like Yeah. I I I need to spend more time with you. There's, like, there's so much on it. So the the still face video experiment stuff from Harvard immediately comes to mind. Right? Yep. Absolutely. But also this like, we're our very vulnerability, like, the paradox, and we're made so much for attachment, attunement, relationship. We're made for intimacy in relationship k. Which means we have to be made, like, in desperate need of it from the very beginning. Like, desperate need. And that Right. We're also made with the ability to shut it off in order to survive. God's so so pretty cool. That's so cool. I know. And say that. I'm like, oh, I know. I can feel it in my body, and I'm like, oh, it's so tender. And and and like you said, you learn how to shut it off. And so imagine, you know, let's say it's not quite so obvious as no one's coming in an orphanage. Let's say you have a mom who, like, I struggle with postpartum depression and anxiety, so I wasn't nearly as, like, available and settled as my first son, Liam, needed. And so, you know, what happens with him as he's trying to attach, as he's trying to find a safe place? Like, I'm anxious. I'm worried. You know? And then he starts to to cry more, and then now I have an anxious baby with an anxious mom. You know? Again, like, it doesn't take all you all attach to your anxiety. That's right. And it doesn't take bad parenting. Right? I'm not a bad parent. It takes flawed human existence for us to learn that what we're created for, which we're created for Eden, we're created for perfect connection. Now we're left with a flawed human being who's taking care of us, and now we have to mitigate the gap. And how we deal with the gap is also then how we relate to the world for the rest of our lives. And so for an orphan, they're looking at the gap and quickly, subconsciously. Right? This isn't something that we're like, okay. I'm alone, so I'm gonna figure out how to take care of myself. But that's the ultimate result is the orphan says, okay. No one's coming. So the only thing I can rely on is myself. I can't trust, you know, care. I can't trust that care is coming. And so I'm going to be self reliant. I'm gonna be hyper vigilant around where the next shoe is gonna drop, and I am going to work hard to create control in my environment so that I don't have to feel the loss of care and protection. Yeah. Yeah. Some people even, like, build counseling centers so they don't have to feel the loss. Oh, some people build nonprofits called the Alvin Earth. I mean, look. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. It's like we can't help, well, the loneliness, the shame, the fear, like, the interplay, of of what happens in the human heart, when when we're orphaned. You mentioned postpartum depression. Did not merely start thinking. Like, that's, like, the light end, right, of disruptive attachment or something that doesn't happen. And then there's, like, addiction, which is the which is the true pandemic in our society is is addiction. Yes. And all the children who are growing up or have grown up and will grow up in homes where, like, attunement or deep connection being known, like, they either survive by overfunctioning, right, and becoming heroic or enabling or massively codependent, or they survive by being yeah. I guess you're, you know, a stranger. Right? They survive by by not existing. Okay. So I know you're probably gonna get I've not read the book. I need to go back and I need to go read it now. But are we gonna talk about prophet, priest, and king at some point? Yeah. Well, let's let's do let's I know. Let's go let's go back. Because I know that so my brain's, like, exploding now with things. I know. Yeah. And, and I feel like you and I are even having, like, a coded conversation of, like, so many little conversations that need to be had. I know. Okay. So go back to the orphan. Okay. Okay. Yes. Gotta talk about stranger.

Yeah. So stranger for the stranger, the strangers are often the ones who feel, the most in in their bodies. So they're the empaths. They they feel deeply. So if there's loss loss loss of connection for a stranger, they're gonna be pissed and feel like, that I was meant for something, you know, no one's coming through for me, and there's a sense of I feel too much, I'm too dramatic, and they they kinda get ousted outside of the city gates either emotionally or, you know, they actually end up leaving. Like, these are the black sheep of the family. These are the ones who are often the truth tellers, and they know something of, like, they they feel deeply. They they sense something of the broken world, and they are rendered powerless to fix it. Mhmm. So these are the folks who are the artists and the dreamers and the musicians, the ones who feel deeply but are also, like, desperate to actually fix it. These are these are your, you know, people who are looking at justice and, like, they they see something of the world that's broken. And but they're also they have this power in them, this fire in them that wants to fix it, but they're always pushing up against the fact that they're never able to do it.

Saint Jude's in the world. Like, the patron saint of lost causes. Right? Like, that's Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. That's me. I mean, so I'm an orphan and a stranger. Yes. Like, I I have a sense I'm also gonna be a widow. Yeah. I welcome. I know. It's tough. It's tough. The good news then the reason why we wrote the book. Right? The good news is that when you start to identify that, it's hard, but you can also feel something in your body settle because you're like, yes. This makes sense of my world. This makes sense of why I operate the way that I do. And and that is the first step to healing is actually recognizing what has been true. And so often, what we do is is dissociate from like, we we ignore these stories, because what we were taught is just keep going. Build more, do more, you know, be higher functioning, be more successful, you know, read blah blah blah. And and what we actually have to do is go back and understand the why and the what. Like, what happened to you, and why are you operating out of these wounds? Because, you know, orphan, stranger, and widow are inevitable, But, you know, but we we can also use them to continue to be successful and be able to ignore, you know, the rest of your life.

We'll talk about widow in a second. But, if you wanna write a book that won't sell Oh, Because I wrote this book. Yeah. It's called parenting with heart, and it's about the, you're gonna harm your child. Your child is gonna experience a broken world primarily through relationship with you. So quit trying to be the focus on the family parent that you lust after being. There were you could be the absolutely right and and make sure your child doesn't have your experience, which is so narcissistic. Instead engage your child who they are and which means you gotta know who you are. Right? You gotta know where where you came from and what, version of yourself you created that's not really you. Right? I mean, if you're, if you wanna sell a book write a book that doesn't sell, write that book.

That's that's a wonderful book. It it just needed a different title. If we all do need to Gosh. But that's One, two, three magic. I'll call it one, two, three magic. How about that? Yeah. And everyone would write would read it and then be like, oh, I understand. Like, look. I we have we've been saving money ever since our kids were born. Can't quite tell if it's gonna be for college or therapy or both. Both. But, yeah. So college is adult preschool. Right. That's what it that's what it is. That's what it it says really expensive adult preschool. Yeah. It's necessary. Yeah. It's necessary for that. And, like, I've got four kids. Youngest are 16. Oldest is 22 21 right now. But the great news is two of them have self selected into I want therapy, which is awesome.

Right? Yep. Amazing. So happy, and I'm so grateful to pay for that. Yes. Oh, absolutely. You know? So say for both adult preschool and and their therapy. They can have therapy while they're in preschool. And and, yeah, and they could tell you, how you've harmed them, which is the greatest gift your child will give you ever. Absolutely. Well and that's so that's actually the third thing for so if if you're looking at attachment theory, the orphan needs attunement to heal. Right? The orphan needs someone who says, I see your need, and I'm here. And that can even be internally. That can be you to yourself as well as seeking other relationships. Like, you know, when my orphan flares up, it's like, hey. I see you. Understand. You're terrified. So, you know, what can we do to soothe some of your of your terror right now and your need? Right? That's that's what the orphan needs. The stranger needs containment. The stranger needs to know that they can feel all the big feelings and see all the stuff and rage and cry and that someone is gonna hold that and create containment so they can't blow things up, but there's also room for them to feel it.

Oh. Right? I need both. Okay. We didn't define the widow. So let's talk about widow. So widow and then is is rupture and repair, which is what I you know, which is Okay. So widow is the sense of you've known something of safety. You've known something of love. You've you you were kind of seduced into the idea that there could be, like, really good connection or or goodness in the world. And then and then you see it's death. And that can be, like, someone who was groomed at an early age, you know, to be daddy's favorite girl little girl, and then all of a sudden, you know, when you were seven, he started to abuse you. Right? Yeah. So you're you're now in the sense of I'm and so what what a widow can't do is trust, love, and trust that mutuality and connection is safe because they they they actually gave their heart over, and and now there was there was a death either through envy or abuse or marring of their of their gifting or or actual death. I mean, this happens a lot with with kids who, had a a divorce in their backgrounds. Right? There's a sense of mom and dad were fine at one point even though they weren't. And then all of a sudden, you know, I'm going between you know, so so kids kids can experience this all the time. You can experience a widow wound through, you know, creating a counseling center, creating, you know, a nonprofit, being a church leader. Right? You thought that you were creating something good on behalf of others, and then, eventually, it dies. It nothing lasts. Nothing stays pure. No marriage stays in the honeymoon period. There's always a degree of loss, you know, and heartache around the corner. The widow is the one who says, hey. I I realized that there's loss in the world, so I'm gonna isolate. I'm not gonna connect. I'll participate, but you will not gain access to my heart. You will not gain access to the parts of me that will feel the most vulnerable and feel the most exposed, that actually open you up to a mutual connection of giving and receiving. Right? So the widow can give. You know? They they can lead. They can run organizations, but but they're not going to receive, or they'll just receive and then not give. Right? So it's the point of the mutuality between the two feels too threatening, and they have to isolate in order to stay protected. So what the widow needs to know is that rupture and repair is possible. Because it's not to say that that's inevitable. Rupture is inevitable.

Right. But repair is inevitable. Is possible. That's right. Death is inevitable. Every organization you create, every relationship that you're in will die to some degree of what it is in this moment. Every and and that is inevitable. And but repair is also possible. Not repairing to go back to what was, but repair to its next iteration. And the widow has to then be able to turn her heart his heart back and say, I will risk again. I'll risk love again and keep creating. Yeah. And sometimes that's even, I think it's David White. Bless the space between us. Or is that, is that David White? I don't remember. It seems like it is. Maybe. Who's the other who's this Irish guy? The other poet. I don't know. None? There's the yeah. No. It's modern. I'm sure it's like a thousand people listening to this right now screaming out the person's name, and I care about it. They can they can put it in their comments. But this idea of, like, bless the space between us is sometimes even, like, living into, the already not yet of Yeah. Of repair. Right? Like, it's like, I don't have it in me right now, but I do trust that God's doing something outside of me Yes. In the space between me and this person. Mhmm. Yep. We all our hearts are all wounded. Primarily in relationship. Our response to that is to move against ourselves, move against others, and even move against God. Like, to move into one or all in some way, we inhabit all three of these postures. I identify mostly with orphan and prophet or orphan and and alien. Right? Yeah. As you talk about, Widow, there's been some things in my, recent history that have that have given me insight into that, that wounding. It's also been some of the birth of my greatest, like, gentlemens. Yeah. You know? It's like I've got, like, king and, like, artist down, you know, like, go to war and sing a song, you know, like, about it and, like, write a poem and and and, I don't know. I can fight and I can party And, but this idea of of, like, tenderness and gentleness in the midst of of the struggle, that's a new gift I've received Yeah. Through this. Is that true about these, like, because I'm seeing these, they're inevitable. I've chosen like, I chose my orphan. It's not that I had a much of a choice, but it it was a choice. Right? There was a, I was responsible in it. I responded in it. I chose my strangeness, the alienness, the outsiderness, not that the others that was the best of some bad options for me. Absolutely. Well and that's the orphan, widow, and stranger all are protective mechanisms.

Yeah. So when we experience, you know, the betrayal or the loss, it's like we then have to decide how we're going to reorient to keep ourselves safe. And so, you know, the stranger, like, you know, look. Are you really gonna stay in in the environment that is that is abusing you? It's it's, like, good for you for getting out, and and and coming against and saying no. Now the question is, how do you heal those parts of yourself so that you can enter back into relationship in a more healthy way? So I think So how do you do that? Yeah. So, again, attunement, containment, and rupture and repair are the key areas, that all of those those things need, but you also have to then create an imagination for what you're actually called to do. And so the the orphan is actually called to be a priest. And and when we talk about so we talk about priest, prophet, and king, queen, which again are biblical categories and kind of stations of of being in the world. Right? K. But the priest's call is to tell the story of the people and give people space to grieve, to lament, to experience gratitude, and to experience safety and connection within the community. And so, really, an orphan has had to ignore the truth of their story because it's too painful. The priest allows this the fullness of the story to be able to be told so that their name is given back to them, their history is given back to them. And oftentimes, our the truth of our story is so painful when we look at the whole thing. We we we we have to fragment. You know, we we only take in bits and pieces. Some some orphans will only take in the good parts of their story. Like, well, my mom, you know, yes, she was so it's like you take in you remember the Christmas where where she came through. You remember, you know, the fact that she always bought you a toy when she had come back from trips. Like, you remember pieces that help you Sounds like a great mom. Right? But you're not remembering

Yeah. Totally. Right. Yeah. And and again Because I'm sure she was never there or that she was drunk or that she yeah. Right. You know? And so so the role of the priest our internal priest and also what what we're meant to be priests for other people is to allow people space to tell the truth of the whole of their story so that they can actually rest and heal. Right? That's the role of the priest. And you can see, like, as an orphan is redeemed, there's such a gift to be able to lean into those priestly parts. Because once you realize that the truth of your story is actually the thing that will heal you, it will make you free, you know, then you can lean into rituals that that, allow you to go through hard spaces where your body can't handle it. And, you know, know, we're getting into the weeds a bit, but I I love the priest category mostly because that's my that's not my strong suit, but I can see the need for it so deeply Yeah. In my own heart and my body. And I'm trying to practice presence and capacity to kind of stay in, in in the attunement that's needed in order to allow the the orphan part of my heart, orphan part of other people's hearts to rest. And that's and that's what Priest is about. Now, you know, it doesn't take a lot to think about stranger as also being a prophet. Right? So the stranger actually sees the truth and and, like, their call is to be able to speak to it. Now the issue with a prophet that isn't healed is that they will blow up the message along with the messenger, if if they don't understand their impact, if they can't regulate.

If they're if they're not I was journaling this morning on like, I'm a strong prophet. Like, that's my first leaning. Right? I've I've I've had to develop priestly gifts along the way, like practice, presents, and, patience. And, but I was journaling this morning. It was like, what am I gonna let go of so that I'm more contained? Like, what am I like, the king piece. Right? Like Mhmm. But, like, what, like, how do I rest? How do I give up this fight? Like, what's like, not everything's a fight I wrote myself. Not everything's a fight, Stephen. You know? Like, and I'm trying to foster this, in my head, like, there's so much war language in my head that's good sometimes, but it's also, like, I'm trying to create agrarian language. Like, this image that came to me this morning was about this orchard. You know? Like, how do you tend the orchard? Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's like, god, that sounds so hard. Like, the patience. That's such a priestly calling. Right? Like, to It is. This orchard. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. And I think that's that's why, you know, the the the concepts of prophet, priest, and king, you know, there are there are always gonna be things that we're more we lend ourselves more to easily. You know? Right? So, like, I'm more of a queen. You're more of a prophet. But it doesn't mean that we're not supposed to grow the other parts of us to balance it out. And so I've had to really lean into my priest because that's what's been needed in in within the organization, within my family. And so but it means I have to slow down. I have to, like, lean into lament and grieving and ritual and telling story and telling the truth. And, like, that's a harder spot for me. Like, I wanna keep moving and and, you know, and keep creating and structure. Anyways so, but it's important because, you know, your your prophet needs a priest, and it needs your internal priest. It also needs priests around you. To have relationship with self. Yeah. That's right. But also relationship with other people. Like, what priestly categories do you have in in your life, in in your organization that are coming alongside of you helping you slow down, helping you tend to that orchard where that maybe isn't more of a natural calling for you? Oh, god. I came in central accounts a few weeks ago. And,

looking back, I was afraid and I was lonely. Right? Like, I've been out of pocket for a few days. And I came in, and I was, like, starting to create problems. And Sarah is our managing director who she runs all the day to day stuff and more than that, like, of Sage Hill accounts. Like, she goes, hey. There are no fires, and and we don't need you to start any. Can you just just be here? It's like all that. You know? And we have another one of my, one of the women I get to supervise here, she's she's always just saying to me, calm your body. It's like, oh, thank you. Thanks for priesting me. It's good. Like Yes. They keep giving me some some containment or some

oh, it's good. Yes. Yes. All of that. Like right? And so it's I think it it also creates a different imagination for leading. Because oftentimes, we look at, like, the the profit, king queen categories as kind of the leaders, like, the ones out front, and often we neglect that priestly role that is so drastically important for the health of our organizations and our families. It's so much more collaborative, right, in their in how they move. Like, that's what I'm learning about my marriage is I'm more agentic, like, I have more agency. Heather's more collaborative. And so when we when we're in sync and, like, leaning into that with each other, it's awesome. Like Yeah. Absolutely. You know? When we're not, it's not great. Friction? Yeah. Yeah. System friction. Like, some friction.

Yeah. Some yeah. But her Yeah. Like, I mean, she is the the leader in so many ways of our family. Right? And this collaborative and the thing I've craved more than anything is that kind of sense of belonging and togetherness. And, you know, clearly, God knew what I needed more than I did. Right? And and what she's brought to me through that, you know, it's wonderful. And it takes so much work for me to trust that. Right? It's the the that, and you're talking about, like, the her widow wound. I'm starting to see that. It's like, oh my god. So how do I love her better? Let's turn this in the counseling section. Like, if that's her wound. Right? And I and she can attune with me and she can contain me. Like, how do I love her better?

Yeah. So so the so the widow, has has to be able to to live out of their vulnerability. And so so if you look at the redemption of the widow, really, it's it's the queen king category. And and the queen and the king isn't necessarily meant to just, like, lead from the the top. Right? They're meant to to look at the present and see the work of the priest, the work of the of the prophet, and create structures of care and justice that allow the work of the people to take place. And injustice. And they're meant to set the table and host so that God can be present. So there's and there's structure and there's containment and there's there's presence to that, but it also you have to make the hard decisions. You have to be able to to do the yeses and the noes, and you have to be able to bear the weight of making some of those more difficult decisions so that the priest can do what the priest is meant to do. The prophet can do what the prophet is meant to do. But then you're having to bear a bit more of the weight of of if the decision goes well or if it doesn't.

Yeah. And that And Yeah. Yep. Which could lead you back to that orphan stance. Right? Like, that sense of yeah. Yep. I'm gonna wrap us up here. Yeah. This has been an awesome conversation for me personally. So so I'm, like, taking notes about myself, and, I don't know if anybody else got anything from it. So what I mean, maybe I've been so engrossed in our conversation that I've taken my, how do I steer the conversation for the imaginative listener away. Who cares? I I I clear I clearly don't right now. But as I become aware of that, what is it you would want people to know? Like, in that in all of this conversation, but and let's say people go buy the book. Right? Redeeming Heartache. But what what is it you personally what what's on your heart? What's your passion that you want people to to come away from our conversation with?

It's a big question. It is a big question. You know, I think the the first thing that came to me was just that there's hope. There's hope. But but hope doesn't come from just wishing our pain or wishing, you know, that the world was different. It comes through doing the work Yeah. Of of understanding yourself, understanding where you are most meant to to bless, what you're what you're created for. But in order to know that, you also need to understand where you were harmed and how you and and how to heal from that. And how you dissociate and how you That's right. Disconnect. Yeah. Because you cannot fix the present without going back to the past. You just can't. And and your future is FUBAR

is messed up without that. Right? Yeah. You just keep repeating the past and your future if Yep. You you'll you'll be in a loop for the rest of your life. And and the way you get out of that loop with if you don't do the story work, if you don't do your own work around around your wounding, not only are you bound to repeat it, but the way you'll get out of it is through self medicating, is through, addiction, and and and And then victimization. You'll you'll you'll either be an abuser or you'll end up being abused. Like, you'll Yeah. You'll recreate that. Yeah. Right. And so and so I think what I see more than anything is that in this world right now, and I think this has always been true, but we can look at our world particularly right now, we need healers. Mhmm. We need people who are gonna bring beauty and goodness. We're we can't fix the world. We we can't get ourselves out of a fallen world, but but we can create enough beauty where we can soothe and find goodness and find the heart of God in the land of the living. And I think that's that's the point. So, you know, it's not just so that you're happier. It's that you you're meant to create beauty, and and even if it's just, like, setting a beautiful table and lighting the candles.

Oh, please don't put the word just in front of that. Thank you. Like, it's that's so important. Like, the the, one of the things that I've I've learned, through Heather is, like, she's decorating the house for Christmas right now. Yeah. And I was a little bit of a a Grinch last night. Like, I was I was putting on my grown up outfit and pretending that my my best grown up efforts, but I really wanted to pout and sulk and, eat eat too many chocolate covered cherries. Right? I was tired. I was done. And, like, the the love of setting the table, like, metaphorically and Mhmm. That her and one of our children, like, really engaged in, it was so not for anybody else's enjoyment. It wasn't for show. It wasn't for a magazine. It was it was just for our family. Right? And so, like, I'm aware today, like when you said, like even just setting, like, candles. Like, I think I think setting the table, like, metaphorically And, like, just loving your neighbor is about setting a table. That's right. That fixes the world. Yeah. I agree.

And and our world right now is gonna be fixed in this small. We're being faithful to the small. It's not gonna be the big, and it's gonna be moments where we choose life and choose beauty. But in order to experience beauty in life, we must grieve. We must understand what is holding us back because you cannot feel joy and then not also open yourself up to grief. So to the degree that you're willing to feel the pain will also be to the degree that you're able to feel the joy. So if you're if you're shut off to pain and heartache, you will you can try to experience joy, but it will be it'll be empty. And and so, again, like, we have to be able to tolerate and move ourselves into the the grief and the heartache in order for us to also be able to be people who can can dance and laugh and play.

But they're they're they're connected. We even just put our head down on the pillow at night and sleep well. Oh my gosh. Lord have mercy. Wouldn't that be nice? Change the world? Yeah. Just get a few good hours of nonanxious sleep would be nice. Oh, good night. Ugh. Yes. Well, Kathy, if someone, wants to find out more, engage more in what you're doing, like, how do how do people find out more about you? So, Redeeming Heartache is on, you know, all the places that you buy books, and and you can buy that there. If you wanna find more about me, kathy dot lorzel is where you can follow me on Instagram. And How do you spell lorzel? Thank you. L o e r z e l. Yeah. And so Is that Italian? It's German. German? Like There should be an in there. I know. Yeah. The background. That's right.

And, yeah. Yeah. Allender Center find out allendercenter.org and all of our programs. And then we're doing a redeeming heartache book tour. I'll be in Nashville, and then we're doing Chicago and Houston and all these different places. So you can find out all about where we're gonna be. Mhmm. Thank you so much for be for being here today. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.