The Silent Work of Motherhood

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey, everybody. This is Stephen James. Thanks for joining us for the Sage Hill podcast. We've got something really special today. My wife, Heather, and two of our therapists here at Satchel Counseling, Kate Prevost and Kristen Johnson, are sitting down for a conversation on, motherhood, specifically, parenting young kids. And, this whole podcast came about because Kate and Kristen, have a have between the two of them have five kids, little, all preschool age and are engaging in some really great conversation about being a woman, being a mom, being a parent, being a person, being a spouse, And they reached out to talk to Heather, individually, and Heather had some just her own own story of motherhood to share with them. And and Heather was later telling me about these conversations. I was like, y'all got to sit down and record these because these are so rich. Because there's stuff that's not even about being a woman that I was learning about myself and hearing her re recount these conversations. So they recently sat down together and recorded, a conversation about being a mom and being a human. And what does it mean to love and to serve and to lead and to maintain your identity in the process? So I hope you enjoy it. Hello, everyone. I'm Heather James, and welcome to the Sage Hill podcast.

My husband, Stephen, whose voice you typically hear when listening, asked me to host this week because the topic is near and dear to my heart. Today, we are talking about motherhood. I'm joined by two delightful women, Kate Prevost and Kristen Johnson, who are both counselors at Sage Hill. But more importantly, for our conversation today, they are also both mothers. Hi, Kate. Hi, Kristen. Hi. Heather. Okay. To get us started, would you guys mind doing just a short introduction of yourself so that anyone listening can know a little bit about you, maybe particularly as it pertains to our topic today? So, basically, I'm asking you, in a 100 words or less, can you sum up your very existence? You know, no pressure. Just something light off the cuff. Whoever wants to go first, I don't care.

Sure. Yeah. I'm Kristen Johnson. I have been married to Scott, for ten years. We have three kids. Shiloh, who's 4.5, Sterling's 2.5, and Tallulah, our newest one, is six months. So we are in the thick of babyhood and toddlerhood right now. I'm working part time, as a counselor at Sage Hill. I, primarily see, women and men dealing with trauma, or other, you know, big life changes, events, motherhood, parenthood, any of that too. So, I love art, poetry, The Bachelor, really good food. I love Nashville and being outside. Those are yeah. That's just a little bit about me. Nicely done. Kate? Kate, as it pertains to motherhood, I have a fresh new little one. She is now we we count in months at the beginning, so I always struggle with that. She's almost three months, and we have an almost two year old. So I am in that spot in life where I'm not sure what I like to do for myself just because there is that newborn I'm in that newborn space. I am on maternity leave from Sage Hill, but coming back next month. So I'm right on the verge of coming out of being in the trenches and, if the trenches ever end. I'm not sure of motherhood. Heather, you could tell me you're farther along. You're nodding your head. Shaking my head at you. No. Yeah. There was a moment when I, after, Mary Hollis is our youngest little girl, and she, was about a month. And I was like, I had a moment where, oh, this doesn't get easier. I think this keeps getting harder. Okay.

Mhmm. So I think once you get in the trench, you're you're in the trench. Right. You settle in a place. Yeah. You kinda just are and and, Heather, I remember you telling me that when you came over to hold my baby for a second. You said, yeah. You just kinda like, your nervous system just kind of settles into trench life. And I think maybe that's how it gets easier, quote, unquote. Right. You're gonna bring a leather couch in there. You're gonna have a rug. It's gonna be fabulous. You're gonna love it. You're gonna make your home in yeah. With high adrenals running through your body. But, yeah, that's a little bit about me. Thank y'all for that. Okay. Are we ready to dive in? Yes. When I became a mom at 28, I remember being stunned. So until they put Emma Clare into my arms in all of her glorious pink perfection, I didn't know love like that existed. I knew about other kinds of love, but maternal love was just this idea, this concept, but it wasn't a reality for me yet. And I immediately wanted to do right by this child. I wanted my love to shield her from life's pain and struggle and heartache. Like, whether or not that's good for a person or a human being, like, I thought the way I loved her could make life perfect for her, that I could save her from all the heart and then we'd be left with all the good. Okay. So I totally get that that's naive. And had you asked me when I was 28, I don't know that I really would have used any of those words, but I think, to be honest with myself, that was swirling around in there somewhere. So now almost twenty two years later and three additional children later, I think I'm only beginning to grasp the countless ways in which I have loved my babies well and harmed them deeply. Like, both are really true for me. So when I come to y'all's houses and hold your babies, I'm aware of being profoundly envious of you and so so glad not to be back at the start. But it gives me this totally different perspective that I don't think I had for myself because I'm further away from the start of my parenting journey than y'all are. And so I guess I'm just curious about you and wanted to ask a few questions. And the first one would be, how do you feel like motherhood is everything you dreamed it would be? And then just, like, a lighthearted follow-up to that would be, how is it nothing like you imagined it would be? Kate, do you wanna go first or Kristen? I don't care.

Sure. Yeah. I can go first. I mean, when you're when you're talking, I was thinking, well, how could I not how could we not, as mothers, go into it and be naive? Very true. Like, how is there a way out of that? I think maybe I thought maybe I thought that there was before I had kids, that there is a way to go into motherhood, not naive. Like, I had talked to all these mothers, and I, you know, I knew maybe something. Like, I I knew I would mess them up. People kept telling me, you're gonna you're gonna mess your kid up. But but then when you get in when I got into it, it one of the most humbling things I think I've ever done, because it's like I couldn't my whole thing is, like, performance and trying hard and doing a good job and getting, just getting receiving attention for it. This is like Kristen, you told me you texted me one day. This is the silent work, and that those two words really stuck. Yeah. This is silent work. It's unseen

work. It's a lovely description and very true. Yes. Coming from our our poet. But, yeah, I think the loneliness of it and the, the idea that I can't be a good enough mom in my eyes of it has struck me in a way I didn't realize that, that that was gonna happen. And even though so many people all these mothers were warning me about it. But, Kristen, another thing that you said to me, I my nickname for Kristen is mama bird. So she's given me a lot of she's kind of, like, led me into this journey with her because I I love poetry too, and so she's used to the down into the journey to the Right. You led me with your poetry words. You were like, this is beautiful. Trust me. Come on in. And I was like, wait a second. But you said it's kinda like walking through a waterfall, and you're getting to the you go to the other side, and you can't ever go back. Like, that birth of that first child is like a water you're going through the waterfall. And, yeah, I see I think to come back to the question, what what is it that you thought it would never be? Is that the question, Heather?

Just how is it how is it everything you imagined, and then how is it nothing like you imagined? Because I think both are true. Right? Both feel really real when you're in the middle of it. Yeah. I think I agree with what you said. Like, I I didn't know that I could love something so much that could put me into so much pain. I mean, it's just a a child just sends me on both extremes. There's no there's no medium. What do you say it? So I don't think I really answered your question, but that's what brought out to me when you asked. Trust like it. I will say when you call her mom a bird, I get the images of a bird regurgitating into its child's mouth, and so it may not be exactly the image we're going for here. You know? That's what I think of. Aw. I think that was what was happening there. Yeah. She was regurgitating

things that she had experienced. Yeah. That does make sense. No, Heather. I love that question. I think that, being a mom is like this magical experience. You know? It's like you really get to wake up being in love every day. Like, I mean, at least for me, like, I love seeing my kids. And then two seconds later, I'm like, we gotta leave or wear your shoes or you haven't eaten breakfast. You know? And so it's just this constant, like, dip into humanity of keeping you in the present, if that makes sense, of like, oh, I love you so much, and we still have to go live life. We can't just go, like, run around in a playground all day. You know? Like, I still have to do laundry. I still have to get you ready for Mother's Day out. Like and so I think that if that's why the newborn season, I think, is so special and fragile and beautiful because you really can just kinda sit and hold your baby, you know, when you don't for the first one, not the next ones. But I think that that's something that was different for me. Just, you know, even yesterday, I took one of my kids two by two, to the park. And I think just the idea of, oh, we get to go to the park together. Like, that sounds so beautiful. And it's cold. It's windy. You know, Sterling fell and skinned his knee. And, you know, there's, like, this deep, like, humanity to being a mom where it's like, you feel everything they feel you're up against elements outside or, you know, I don't know. It just, it, it causes you to be so consumed with, like, how are they're doing all the time that it's really easy to neglect yourself. And I didn't really know that going into it about how constant that care is towards someone else. You know? Because we used to just care about ourselves or our friends or, you know, and then you go home and you you go to bed. But it's like you're always taking care of someone else. And I think for me, that has been such a blessing, and that's also been the hardest part.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was not I wish podcasts had visuals because Kate and I are just nodding nodding at Crystal. Yeah. I think that that also Kristen, when you're talking, I was thinking when watching moms, I was thinking before I was a mom, what is so hard for them to leave? You know? What what's so hard for the moms to leave and, like, leave for a weekend? Like, I wanna I wanna make sure that I'm leaving and getting out. Now I'm a mom, and I it's like I didn't know how attached. Maybe maybe I'm attaching for the first time, but it's like, oh, there's all this attachment involved. Like, it is it is hard to leave. Mhmm. It's like that that poem, I I carry you with me. It's it's I'm always carrying them with me. So it's it's just different walking out of the house. It's just different walking around Earth, actually, with them attached and me attached to them.

Right. Yeah. Yes. And don't you think too sometimes you're desperate to leave in certain moments and then, you know, maybe thirty two minutes have passed and I'm like, oh, where are my people? I gotta gotta get back to my babies. You know? It's just it's not you don't feel free in the way that at one point in your life you were free. Like, that freedom has left. It's gone. That is so true. I really and I think that I really connect with that, and I don't want to be free, but at the same time, I do wanna be free. You know? It's like that that's that whole. Absolutely. Yeah. And I know, like, this gets said a lot, and I know my mom said it to me a ton, but I don't think I grasped it until you do have your children. You know, it's as if your heart is outside your body. And I I viscerally feel that with my kids. Like, just that sense of, I don't know, frailty or just the fragility of life, like, as they leave me. Not that when they're with me, I can keep them safe or control it or whatever, but it it you do feel that pull to think you can. And so it's just it's just a constant readjusting of

your own place in the world, I think. I don't know. Yeah. And I think that you're their lifeline in a lot of ways, and you're their voice in a lot of ways, especially when they're really young. When they're young. When if someone else is watching them or if something happens, it's like, you know, they are an extension of us. Right? And it's like you gotta answer the the phone. You gotta, you know I mean, you you just have to be be very aware, I think. And that's probably what causes some anxiety, at at least for me, and hypervigilance of, like, I've gotta make sure they're all okay at all times. And if they're not, someone's gonna try to reach me and tell me they're not. And then I've gotta be prepared for that. You know? And so it's like, yeah, you're never free. Back to that.

And so if that's true, if there is a lack of freedom, then how do you guys counterbalance that? Right? Like, there's a healthy level of considering your children and being aware of your children, and then it can kind of get to where maybe this isn't as good for them as something else. How do you balance that? I hate the word balance, but I used it. I I apologize. Because I don't think it really exists, but I I can't think of another word. Yeah. And that was my my internal answer came up in my body of just, like, there I'm practicing my control because, like, yeah, how do you balance it would be I really feel like I keep wanting to pick up the control again of, like, okay. What can I do to keep everyone safe and happy? And the more I say, okay. Today's gonna happen. Like, it's gonna happen. Even recording this podcast, it's like, okay. We start at ten. What time do I need to feed baby? How do we get everyone out of this tiny apartment that we're living in? And and it's like living in the trenches is, like, letting the letting the chaos take place, letting the kids have their feelings, and knowing that I can't, like, produce the perfect schedule for everything to to flow correctly or for me to get out the door the way I'd like to get out the door or Mhmm. For things to go smoothly when I go back to work or for babies not to cry in the car seat when I'm driving to the park. I feel like it's a constant me having to just breathe into it's gonna be what it's gonna be. When the babies are crying, I feel like I have to, like you know, just yesterday, I was in the car. Baby was crying. There's nothing I can do. There's nothing I can do until I get to the location. And so it's like, okay. This is gonna be what it's gonna be for right now.

Kristen, what were you saying? Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. I I was thought you were, like, pausing. I was like, oh, wait. You're not done. Done. Sorry. I was just the word surrender came up so much for me as you were talking, Kate, about you kinda have to surrender to the process of, okay. I'm not God. I'm not, you know, superwoman. Like, there is a surrender of, like, you've done everything you can do. And allowing it to flow. You know? And and that's and even thinking, you know, my son just started this new little gymnastics, camp thing on Monday mornings. And I was kinda worried yesterday after I dropped him off of, like, okay. Do I really know this teacher? Is it gonna be okay? And then I'm like, okay. You have to kinda go back too and trust yourself and trust that I made a good decision, and whenever I decided this. And whenever he's gone, I have to trust the adults there. You know, it's like there is a lot of trust too, I think. But you have to trust yourself and trust someone else that might be watching your child or trusting, you know, your child to tell you if something's not right. You know? And so I think that's when we kinda open our hands and be like, okay. I can't control everything.

And to know deep down right away that things are gonna go awry. That is also part of the card gonna go awry. Mhmm. I I'm gonna, you know, do a little cross stitch for y'all for Christmas. That can be the I need that. A little sampler for you to hang. Yeah. And so that kinda like, part of my second question for y'all was about the what your aunt talking to right now. Like, where are some of the struggles of motherhood? Do you feel like there's also places where you kinda go, I think I'm a rock star. Like, I really think I'm crushing this whole motherhood thing. Or do you feel like it's easier for us to kinda sit and steep ourselves in the, oh my gosh. It's it can be such a struggle. It can be so hard.

Yeah. No. There are times when I'll complete a task with two babies and be like, I am a badass. I know no one saw me do that, but I Yes. Just crushed that. Yeah. It's, like, probably going to Trader Joe's with two babies. I'm like, I just got our groceries done and with two babies. A car seat doesn't even fit in the grocery cart, which please, somebody explain that. Redesign those. Yeah. How come they do not make grocery carts for you? To bring your baby. It's just too much. Just leave that baby. I've definitely done plenty of runs with the stroller and put all the groceries, crammed them in the bottom. Yes. Yes. Any kind of creative thing that I find that that works. Yeah. The putting all the groceries in the bottom of the stroller, having one wrap to my capoose, Just any kind of mission like that that I go on that I complete. It's like, I'll drive home and have my music on and be like, I am I am rocking out.

But isn't that kinda funny how that changed from who you were before you had kids? You would never have considered yourself a badass if you went to the grocery store. But your perspective shift is pretty monumental. It is. It is. Kristen, what about you? Do you feel like there are areas that you're super proud of yourself? Yeah. I mean, we are actually in the process of, trying to sell our house right now, and we have packed the half of our stuff with three kids and very little help and Very impressive. Finals colds. And so I think, like, that feels really big to me. They maybe watched a little too many shows, but you know what? It's fine. We're surviving. And they're they're actually they're fine. But yesterday, I did have a moment where I was like, okay. We gotta go outside on a walk. I think being outside, any moms, dads hearing this, there is literally a change in your physical body when you step from inside a messy, crazy, kid filled, yelling, wild house and you all have shoes on and jackets and you step outside. And it's like you can breathe and like almost like the earth can like heal you and give you more life or something. But I was went on a walk with the kids and we all had to all have little baggies and collected leaves and we were on a little scavenger hunt and they picked flower, like and I had the baby, like, wrapped around me in my wrap and we're just outside for maybe forty five minutes, but it was so good. It felt like such a victory. You know? I was like, yes. We're doing this. And then, of course, when I got inside, I was like, I'm exhausted, you know, trying to get them all together, but I never would have thought a walk would be such a victory.

I used to feel that way about bath time. Like, it was our saving grace. I thought baths were amazing. It could be 11AM, and if somebody's all stressed, it's like, how about a bath? Yes. That's yes. I know. Especially rainy day bath's the best. Just make a big old mess. I know. Okay. So I also think I think that this is my the hardest question that I'm going to post to you, and we've already touched on some of it. So I think that motherhood can be such a season of sacrifice. Right? It's got these beautiful, priceless moments, but there is this element of sacrifice in it. A laying down of your life in some ways for another's is kinda how it feels like to me. So how do you try and find time to craft a life? Your life in particular, not your kids' lives, but your life in the midst of this laying down. So you start off as a, you know, a daughter and you're a friend and a student, then you become a worker and a spouse, and then boom, you're a mom. And I feel like the mom role is transformative and that it feels all encompassing and kinda, dare I say, overwhelming. And so how do you still find time to write your story while you're trying to help these little people write theirs? Yeah. That was an easy one.

Yeah. I think, I am noticing just with the second child and I know I did it with Lovie too, our oldest. But I keep trying to do all like, things that ways that I would care for myself when I had just Lovie. And I keep trying to go back to these old ways and get getting frustrated of, like, oh, this is how I used to meet my needs. This is how I used to meet my needs. But now I only have I'm breastfeeding, so I only have, you know, one to two hours of a break in between feeds during the day. So I can't ever fully feel like I get into a rhythm of getting my needs met, but I also need to know I it's gonna look different. And so I'm learning to, like, grieve that I can't go out and get into a rhythm for a couple hours and get my needs met. It's it's more like how can I get a babysitter for an hour so I can go outside and walk? And that's not not gonna feel like enough, and still that's good. I'm I was talking through this with someone else because I so in my own therapy, I've just I went to her and I said, listen. I don't need to talk about anything in my story. I don't I don't need to go back and do any food, family of origin. Like, I need you to help me help myself. Like, I just like, I need a schedule, and I basically just need a life coach to tell me, okay. How is this all gonna work? And and I think there was some guilt of, hey. Like, why don't you just let someone come over and sit with the baby even if she's not doing anything so your brain can just have some space, not so it's not so activated of, like, you only have the amount of time until baby wakes up. So your brain can just have some space of, like, open space. Because when the babies are around, you never know when it's gonna erupt or when a need is gonna come up. That was really valuable to me because I think it was hard for me to just get someone to watch the baby while she was sleeping. Like, it didn't feel worthy enough for help. So I think to answer your question, it's allowing myself to get help. And, and I'm what what I'm noticing is there's a lot of shame around my need, and and just being needy and telling people exactly what I need. Hey. Can you come over and watch my sleeping baby? There's a internal, like, critic voice for me that says, you just need someone to watch your sleeping baby. Like Would you need that? Yeah. Like, your baby's like, what yeah. And so there's they like, just wrestling, listening to that critic, wondering why it's there, but also being able to, like, speak clearly of what I need is something that I'm trying to grow in because I know I'm gonna need that moving forward. But, yeah, it feels like I have to discover my needs all over again, what they are.

Kaye, I love that what you said because I think that moms, at least for me, I sometimes only feel like I really get a break whenever someone is actually watching my kids. And even if Tallulah is asleep, I can, like, take a shower knowing Scott is here watching her. Like and so I think that it's amazing to ask for help because she's still occupying space in your mind even if she's asleep. Because you're like, when is she gonna wake up? Is she breathing okay? What what did she do? I'm going upstairs. Is the baby okay? Like, you can't have a complete thought without help. So true. I feel that. Yeah. I I remember when ours were all little, and I would tell Stephen if I could just wrap my mind around a a schedule. Like, if I could just really zero in on the schedule and get it all right, I think it's gonna just make things smoother. And, I mean, he would get in my face and be like, maybe what if what if there's no schedule in the world that's gonna make that possible? Which was really in a lot of ways freeing for me because I felt, like Kate was saying, just a lot of shame of why can't I get all this going? This should be simpler somehow. I mean, I'm a fairly intelligent person. I think I can make this work. But to realize that there is with motherhood this just chaos and craziness kinda that comes with it. And I'm not alone in that, and yet I can feel really alone in that. It's just a it can be a really difficult place to

be. Mhmm. Yeah. And my counselor, Brian, is working right now too. I'm being like, Maybe maybe it is about the family of origin. There was some control there. Maybe you don't need a life coach. Maybe So, Kristen, like, for you, would you say you feel really similar things to Kate as far as how you find time for you? Or are there things that you really purposefully go do, not even leaving your home, but, like, engage in that feeds kinda who you are as a person, not who you are as a mother? Yeah. No. I I really I like this question even though it's really hard for me. I think I agree with Kate too of how I, you know, use after maybe one, two, three, try to go back to the same things that maybe used to give me some sort of, wholeness, recharge, like, whatever you wanna say to kind of, like, fill your tank or something, but it doesn't fit. It's almost like the shoe doesn't fit anymore. And so I think, wow, it's a really simple things. Like like, there's a one of my favorite little coffee shops near our house. And just on the some days, whenever I just have two kids or sometimes I have three or one or whoever I have, it's just such a treat to go get a decaf, almond milk, half sweet vanilla latte. Like, that for me is so life giving because it's like, I can hold it, it's warm. I don't know. So, like, coffees, I'm still super into, like, fashion and style and stuff like that. And so sometimes I'll, you know, just be looking at, like, fashion blogs or something, or I'll, like, curate something in my closet and I have five minutes. And and for me, sometimes it's just getting ready for the day. Like, I'm not a big, like, wearing workout clothes unless I'm gonna go workout, which is because I'm probably not gonna work out. My workout is more of chasing my kids. And so I love getting ready in the morning even if it's just, like, twenty minutes and just like, literally, I used to think, like, oh, what am I gonna wear to this concert or what am I gonna wear to this event with my friends? Now I'm like, oh, what am I gonna wear to the library? There's some cool moms that go there. You know? So I think for me, it's like, there yeah. Fashion, coffee, sometimes at the end of the night, just like watching a show, like, with Scott or by myself. Those are just little things that I or it's a phone conversation or doing something like this. You know? I just get a like, yeah, like, little little bites of, like, self care, and yoga. When I do get have time and make time to do it, that is so, like, amazing. So those are kinda my things right now.

Yeah. Those sound like good things. I remember when mine were smaller, you'd get that tiny window that you're gonna do yoga or do something, and then a body's on top of you, and it's got nothing's ever exactly what you think it's gonna be. Right. Sometimes it's a lot it oftentimes, it's a lot sweeter. So Well, and I think too, like, you saying that, that is so true because when you're in the home and your kids are here, they will find you. They will find you. You cannot escape. Yeah. And so no matter how big your house is, they have like a Yeah. How do they hear? Thank you. Detector or something, you know, like we must put off a scent. But I do think when you do get to leave the house, like, whether it's, like, coffee or, like, you know, occasionally I'll, like, I don't know. I'm trying to, like usually if I go somewhere in the evening, I take the baby. So I'm trying to think if I'm ever or I'll, I don't know. If I ever do get to leave the house, there is a sense of, oh, I can listen to music. I can call someone on the phone. Like, I think there is and also you don't have the chores, you don't have the kids, and there's this kind of, like, reconnection back to yourself, you know, at least for me, especially music. I think music can really help you connect.

I don't know. And I think for me too, I have to remind myself that when I used to leave and come back, and it is different because our youngest are 16 now, which is a whole different story than where y'all are. But I used to you know, you'd get that kind of, time away zen going, and then you step back in, and there's the dishes and the whatnot, and it's just everywhere. And you just it's a constant reminder of prioritizing and picking what really matters and not getting worked up over things that at the end of the day, you're gonna have to do again tomorrow anyway. So why am I so freaked out about it? You know, it's just Yeah. That kind of mental game that you have to play with yourself to talk yourself through various things. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. And that you're after you take a break, you're most likely not gonna come back to order. Like, it's it's like order, like, disorder, like, that whole thing of Yeah. You're not gonna stay in order for very long. And, again, the surrendering thing, it's you're right, Heather. Like, how how come I'm gonna get stressed about the kitchen being a mess when it's just gonna be a mess again in five minutes? Yep. But it but I do. I need to put order and then Mhmm. And I think my is my thing is, okay. How well can I sit in the disorder before the next thing comes? Because I've I find myself sitting there thinking, even when I'm breastfeeding, like, okay. I can can clean that up. Okay. I can fix that. But we need that. We need all of it. Like, we need the cycle. It's just yeah. I find myself being resistant to the disorder. We got a, Lovie had her parent teacher conference, which is hilarious because she's two. But they were like, she doesn't like, getting messy. And I was like, that one might be on May 5.

I need to write that down for her file for her future therapist. We're just gonna write that down. She doesn't like group activities, and she doesn't like getting messy. And I was like, okay. I don't know about I don't know if I can claim the group activities, but the messy part, I think we could work on at home. Oh, y'all okay. This is I'm super aware. It's sort of like the counseling hour. You have to keep up with time. And so I want to say, do you have something that you if there are new moms listening or old moms listening, is there something you would say feels like your moment? Like, the gym and this is probably a really, putting you on the spot and difficult question, so feel free to say just say no. I don't. But is there that little nugget, that little something that you feel like kind of encompasses for you motherhood or it helps you get through the day when it's a hard day or it helps you relish the beauty of a really sweet moment. Like, that thing that you kind of acknowledge to be like a guiding sentiment behind motherhood. Do you have one of those, 20 of those, none of those?

Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Yes. No. I I totally do. I mean, I was thinking about one thing specifically. I think, you know, no matter what stage you are in motherhood, and I'm not an expert. Just been doing this for four and a half years. But I think there's something really beautiful about, you know, getting on a level with your kid. You know? Whether it's, you know, they're acting out or they're, having big feelings or they're moody or whatever it is. I think for me, getting kind of behind of, like, hey. What's really going on? Or getting to their level, looking them in the eyes, holding their face, like, cuddling with them. There's just something about that attention that when when stuff starts to go awry, you know, like you're saying, there is it doesn't make it all go away, but it lets them know that you're with them. And you can just sit with them in their feelings and sit with them of, like, hey. I understand you're mad right now. Okay. Let's be you can be mad. I'm gonna be with you. And I think that that for me is, like, kinda what I go to, after I've done after I'm done getting mad at them. You know, then I'm like, oh, okay. I'm gonna now go with you and sit with you because the only other choice is to distance myself. And that, you know, might be easy to do, but at the same time, it's not the best thing to do. Not that I haven't done that too, but, you know, trying to really just get on their level, be with them in their feelings.

I love that. That's great. Kate, do you have one? I love what you said, Kristen. Like, my my only other option is to distance, myself from them. And I do I love you through a pretty big tantrum, and I was really surprised that my body in my body, I wanted to walk away. Like and I did, and I walked away. And then as I was and and it felt right because my body was saying, no. Walk away from this. Walk away from this. Just let her deal with it and just ignore it, and then it'll pass. And I was so surprised looking back on it that, like, that was my that's what my instincts wanted to do. And, like, that's the choice we have as a mother, like, to distance it or to sit down. I noticed that as I as I was practicing being in her tantrums with her, it's like, okay. If I sit down on her level and just breathe through it, then I I can be there for her and give her words for it. But it was it it was sad to me that, like, my internal world was in definitely in a fight to to stay in that. But I think I think the mantra that I keep returning to is it this is worth it, and I got it from my sister-in-law because she Heather, she was like you. She had, two kids, and then she had twins at the end. And I would go visit her in Chicago, and there there would just be, like, chaos going on. And I heard like, I would hear her say I would hear so I would watch her by. She would take a breath, and she'd go, no. It's worth it. And then she'd keep going. And I was like, wow. She is a warrior goddess. Wow. I wanna be like her. This was before I had any kids. But I really feel like, other moms, like you guys, give me they they give me hope and words to live by by just being a witness to them or someone being farther down the road from me. But there's just there's just so much that like, the struggle is worth it. It's so worth it. Like, I was putting Lovie down the other night, and she just started just stroking my hair. Your hair. Oh my gosh. I was just rocking her, and she just and it's like, this is all after this long day, like, the hero the hero is love. Like Yeah. This is just love. And I'm getting to know what that really means more by being a mother, in a way that I've never experienced it to be.

Just messaged you. Where you can't like, when I when you're I'm watching you stroke your hair, and it's that sense of I can feel, I don't know, just the the sweetness of that and the tenderness of that and just it's almost like you can't breathe. It's so good. Yes. And you you will couple that with and I think this is the tricky part about motherhood because people hear us saying, like, really sweet things, and it is. It is being my kid's mom is is the most privileged thing I will ever get to do. Like, I'm in awe of them and adore them and would literally give my life for them. And it is absolutely, hands down, the hardest thing I have ever done. Mhmm. And I'm asked to get up and do it again every every single day. Yeah. So

I feel that in my heart, like, just the that ache Yeah. Of I love this so much, and this is the hardest thing I've ever done. Okay, mamas. This was so good. Thank y'all for sitting down with me and talking and being real. Yes. I think it's very important. Yeah. Mama's here to be real. Yeah. Even even therapists have crazy children. Okay. I think that needs to be normalized. Right? Sometimes, like, I think people our clients maybe think, like, oh, they're probably sitting down with their feelings chart every night going over their feelings. It's like, no. Like, we No. I actually walked away from my child and she's how I feel like. What's that? Me too. I do that too. I mean, it's it's really hard and I think it's important to be to be real in the midst of, you know, the crazy.

Yes. And when your kids get older, they will say things like, I don't like this feeling chart. Why are we always talking? Right. Yeah. Can we do something like that away? Because of the feelings. Exactly. Thanks, you guys. Thanks, Heather. Thanks, Kate. You. Bye. Bye. Bye. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.