Honest Storytelling & Cosmic Humility

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey. This is Stephen James, executive director of Sage Hill. Been a little bit since, we've gotten to do a podcast. Things have been busy here in Nashville. So glad to be back in the Sage Hill studio today. Got an awesome guest today. His name is Chris Zaleski. He's an award winning filmmaker, journalist, professor at Wake Forest University in the documentary film program. I met Chris a few weeks ago at a screening that a friend of mine, put on for his film, theirs is the kingdom. And what the film is, it's a documentary of the rare creation of a fresco mural inside a sanctuary in a North Carolina church in Asheville. This altarpiece, this fresco altarpiece, is not a painting of powerful religious people or famous people, but of people battling homelessness, addiction, mental illness, abuse. So there's really this inversion of the story of people that aren't typically seen, who we don't really look at, who we often turn our face from are now in this permanent, piece in this church that's just beautiful. And then Chris did the movie, the documentary about the making of it, which he first thought was gonna be a documentary about the fresco, but that ended up being a documentary about the people and their stories. You get to meet some really wonderful people, some really brave souls in the in the documentary. You can check it out on PBS. It's on PBS for the next few weeks, pbs.org, or you can go to theirs is thekingdomfilm.com and see more. Also, St. Jill's continuing to do therapeutic intensives, for individuals, couples, families, three, four, five day intensives for people who wanna do in-depth therapy. We're also offering a, hashtag me too workshop, which is for women who have experienced sexual trauma and are working towards recovery from that. So if you wanna find out more about that, go to sageocounseling.com and click whatever the appropriate link is. So enjoy my conversation with Chris.

Hey, Chris. Yeah. Hey. Hey. How are you doing? Hey, man. That's, like, that's called a cold open. I like that. Thank you so much for spending some time with me today and talking. You and I met a few weeks ago at a film screening of a documentary you made called theirs is the kingdom. I'm gonna try to tell you what I think that film's about, and then you correct it. Okay? That sounds great. Yeah. That's So, it's about some artists in Asheville, North Carolina who did a fresco, which is there are not a lot of frescoes. I learned that from your movie in the in The United States. It's very rare. Old way of of creating art and painting, plastering. Is it painting or plastering? Yeah. You're you're painting into wet plaster. Okay. So I guess it's a little bit of both. Little bit of both. It leaves a permanent thing, but they're they're painting a fresco in a church that was kind of an altar piece in this church. Mhmm. But instead of depicting typical religious figures, they in the fresco depicted homeless people in the community because this church's outreach primarily was to the homeless community in Asheville. Right? Yeah. And you made a film about that. Mhmm. Yeah. That's right. Making of that fresco. Yeah. And the people who are in it. And the people who are in it, which is what really caught my attention. Like, I learned a little bit about frescoes, and, my theory of artist was confirmed. Like, I love artists, and they're peculiar people, and that's awesome. But the thing that really caught me was how you featured, the stories, the first person accounts of people who are trapped in homelessness. And, like and and so there was so much going on for me when I saw that. And we went out afterwards and, talked, and the people gathered, and we talked about it. And, I got on this rift about story and started like, basically, stood up on the table and started preaching to the congregation. And then you had decided we'd do a podcast to talk about it. So Right. Right. Is that is that a clear Yeah. Collection? I think that I think that's as clear as as I remember it. I mean,

yeah. We we we we talked about the power of story. We also talked about the power of seeing yourself in a in a way, that's different than what you when how you normally see yourself or how you think the others may see you, and which is kind of a big theme of this fresco. Right? Is that these are people who are painted in this large scale mural, 20 feet wide by, you know, 10 feet tall, who are largely unseen. Right? And so there's a power in just being able to see yourself in a different way. There's a power inherent to that artwork. And then, hopefully, there's a power in that the film kinda takes it in a different direction. I'm not gonna say one step further because I don't think you can ever do justice to the real artwork. But I do think that film is a different medium, and it's a different way to tell stories. And, and it's a different form of permanence too. Like, we could talk all about that. Like, what makes Fresco so unique is that you're you're taking a painting and you're literally turning it into stone. It doesn't just sit on the surface of the canvas. You're turning it to stone. So there's a permanence to it. I think film has that in a little bit of a way too. And and, and so yeah. I I kinda remember it in the same way, but that's that's kinda how the evening went. So so I wanna talk about your movie, your film, your documentary.

I also wanna talk about, like, you're a professional teacher of how to make movies and tell stories. Like, so that's and, specifically, you teach documentary filmmaking, which is Yep. A more I don't know. It's it's a it's not it's a more honest version of storytelling, a more, I don't know, not real, but more honest version of storytelling. You're depending on real life to happen in order to have a story to tell Sure. As opposed to manufacturing something. Right? So, I mean, you're manufacturing. Yeah. You're carving. It's kinda like Michelangelo. You're carving out of stone the story that's already there as opposed to, like, gluing the stone together. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, there's a lot that happens behind the scenes in documentary that's a lot of the gluing together too. But, yes. Yes. Largely, I I would say So you do teach that. Yes. I do. If you teach documentary filmmaking at Wake Forest, which makes you really smart. Uh-huh. That's the it's a stamp of credibility.

Hey, Ed. So I wanna talk about theirs of the kingdom. I wanna talk about you as a professional storyteller and a teacher of storytelling. And maybe in that conversation of those three things, we you and I will discover something together about our own stories. That's that's a big hope. Yeah. I love it. That's a that's a I like it. Let's go Okay. For it. So what got you interested in theirs is the kingdom Sure. Project? Yeah. So, I was living in Asheville at the time, which is where the the church is. I think you mentioned that. And, the subject of a previous film of mine, told me about this fresco that was being painted in this church. And I I had heard of Haywood Street. Most people that live in Asheville know what Haywood Street is, even if they're not, you know, active members of the church. And she had told me about this fresco that they wanted to paint in the sanctuary of this church, but they were having some issues with the funding controversy. And so my mind as a documentary filmmaker is like, oh, controversy. Let's see what this is about. And so I went to the church one afternoon. The the the pastor of the church, the founding pastor, Reverend Brian Combs, was kind of doing this public talk back to address some of the the recent, you know, funding controversy. And he was just he just blew me away. I mean, he was just so powerful in his words and how thoughtful he was about how much this project meant to the church and how much it meant to him personally and to the city of Asheville. And so I quickly realized that the the film was much more than just this funding controversy. And, actually, the whole process that that controversy ended up just being a blip. And it's in the film for a scene, but it's just it's it's not a big part of it at all. And what I learned was that the the folks around this fresco, the artist, Christopher Holt, kind of carrying on this tradition that isn't really practiced anymore. And then most importantly, the folks who are being depicted in the fresco, you know, real people in Asheville, battling homelessness, addiction, mental illness, really their stories were were so powerful. And so, you know, what started out as in my mind, I said, alright, I'm gonna go do maybe a ten minute short film here, which is just a just a trick that documentary filmmakers tell themselves. I I think any storyteller tells themselves. They don't get Eighty two minutes later. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And then for me, it was exactly that. I said, okay. I'm gonna hang out here for a month and get enough to do, like, a ten minute short film that that maybe the church could use for funding. And then three years later, I did a feature length, and that's how that's how things snowball. And so that it really it was every time I talk with a new person, I just kinda got more and more invested in the process. And I and I just I genuinely enjoyed hanging out with the people that I was interviewing. And I think that, you know, for me, I say this line a lot, but I really believe it. Documentary filmmaking is really about interpersonal relationships. And I don't wanna be What does that mean? Well, I I don't for one, I don't wanna spend three years of my life with people that I that that I don't like. You know, I'm gonna be with them a lot. I mean, I'm filming fifty, sixty, 70 times with people. Like, I wanna feel like I I have a real human connection with them. And then the other part of that too is I'm I'm asking of people something that is a little bit, well, certainly abnormal, but I'm asking them to open up to me in a way with a camera no less, in a way that most people don't ask you to open up, especially if you spent your life on the margins, especially if you've had some things happen to you in your life that are that are, you know, pretty sad. And so you have to be a human being. You have to be real with folks to hopefully gain their trust and get them to open up with you. And that's the other part of it is interpersonal relationships. Like, how how vulnerable are you gonna be with folks? How how much are you gonna show that you care about a community or you care about the story that you're telling to hopefully get people to open up open up to you in a vulnerable way? And so that that was a big part of this process for sure.

We you and I met through a mutual friend, Andy Peterson, who runs a documentary film festival called the Justice Festival, and he does a bunch of other stuff. He's one of my oldest friends. He told me years ago that the best documentaries, like, the filmmaker goes to to see a certain story or tell a certain story, and then something happens in the process that changes the direction Mhmm. Of the story. And, what did you think the film was that you were gonna make? What did you what did you be begin to see what you were making? And then what did you discover that you had when you were editing? Like, imagining they're different things. Yeah. That that's a great question. I mean, I think initially, I was really attracted to the creative process of painting a fresco. And so in the first, you know, let's say eight months of production, I really thought that the storyline and the story arc was really gonna focus on kind of the process of creation and the process of creativity and what goes into, you know, keeping this ancient art form alive, but also what goes into all the create creative processes that the art team is making, you know, to make this fresco happen. And I was interviewing the models, the folks who were being painted in the fresco, and I was trying to get their real stories. And I I I was, but I just didn't know until I really started editing it that those stories would be as important and then soon more important than the story arc of this fresco being created. And so that that was a change. And then and this is gonna open up a whole other can of worms. But the third story arc here in this film is Reverend Brian Combs and the theology of Haywood Street. I mean, what what the the ministries that they're doing to serve the homeless population of Asheville, that's a huge part of why they wanted to create this fresco in the first place. Well, in the in the, you know, the first few cuts, you know, before I was even done filming, I was starting to edit it together, and I didn't really have a ton of that storyline in the film. And I showed it to a friend of mine who teaches at Calvin University up in Grand Rapids, where I actually just showed the film a couple weeks ago up there. And, my friend is, I would say, much more of a openly much more of a person of faith than I put on many times. And he he really was like, you can't can't tell this story and not mention anything with this theology. Like, this is this is crazy. And so we had a long conversation about it, and he was and he was spot on, and he kinda grounded me in in that part of it. And, you know, the film and the story and just the overall experience is so much richer now with that third storyline in there. Regardless of whether or not you're a person to fit, that part of it is so much it creates such a deeper level of understanding to the fresco. And so that part changed a lot too, and and we could, you know, we could unravel that a little bit. But yeah. Yeah. Let's let's do that just for a second because

I showed up late to the screening, basically, because Andy said I'd have free tacos. So I did not know good tacos too. Yeah. I did not know what the movie was about. Sure. K? I had no idea. But I look in the room, and I see a couple of people that I recognize that I I think, oh, that's inch I I know that person. They're interesting, thoughtful person. This this could be something good. And I sit down, and I'm I'm watching it. And, I forget who which one of the models. And by models, we mean, like, a person in homelessness. Right? Yeah. Who's being sketched. Yeah. The model sketched. Yeah. Right. Right. And then you interview them and they talk. Oh, it's the guy with the garden. And he was talking about the Robert. And he was he was, you had subtitles because

Robert didn't speak super clearly sometimes. Oh, no. No. Thomas had subtitles. Thomas I don't think Robert had subtitles. Robert, I will tell you if you're speaking to Southern East. Subtitles. Yeah. I had to go well, North Carolinian southernies, like, Mountain North Carolina is different than Absolutely. Yeah. Nashville southernies or or rural southernies. But he was talking, and he was so kind. There was church volunteers coming to help clean up the garden, or he was putting people to work. And he was the, I guess, the, what's the term? Who takes care of Sexton that takes care of the church grounds? Yeah. He's the he's the lead gardener. I know that's not a fancy of a term, but that's his He was term at Haywood Street. He would thanks. He was encouraging people, like, be careful because you'll find needles, and I don't want you to poke yourself. And I was like, what is going on? So there's a there was something really confusing to me when I walked in. And then, like, every time you you came back to have a homeless person, which is not the right way of saying it, a person in homelessness, tell their story. Mhmm. Like, I was more and more drawn in and more and more drawn in. Mhmm. And it was super disturbing. Like, I left having lots of feelings. Like, I had lots of big feelings. And I I still don't know why except for what you just said. I didn't you helped me understand a second ago. The film is unapologetically Christian, and I don't know if you meant to make it that way. And I mean it this way. It took the least of these, and it disturbed the person with power and influence and money and made me really uncomfortable about how comfortable I am. It made me really question, a lot of my presuppositions about my comfort. And so as I'm sitting here and you're I'm going, well, yeah, the theology of the film was like f you. Like, that was it was like you're gonna see these people. You're gonna deal with yourself because they're I left been hearing some of their stories was like,

man, those are such heroic people. Like, just to still be alive. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Well, I yeah. I mean, I'm first off, I I mean, everything you said there, I I just I I appreciate, the level of thoughtfulness that you bring to viewing it and how much it resonated with you means a lot to me. So let me just say that. Yeah. But I I do think that some of the the, quote, the theology story line, the theological story line elements that really are powerful, I mean, it the the film says, you know, in the very beginning, you know, my notion of Jesus was, blue eyed, European Jesus with this very contemplative gaze on his face, but the Jesus I met on the street is antagonistic, is, confrontational. I mean, it's it's right there, it puts it right out there. And I think that that's a really important,

is poor, is rough. Yeah. It's rough. It's somebody you probably wanna avert your you will probably avert your eyes when you when you initially see this person, you know? And I think that's kind of, like, the framework upon which to view the fresco and the framework upon which to view the film. And and that's ultimately I mean, that's how I was raised. I think that's how a lot of people are raised. And so when you're confronted with that a little bit, you're you're having to kinda question your beliefs. Right? You're having to kinda think about why you believe what you believe. And so, yeah, that's that's certainly part of it. Totally. And then the other thing I will say, especially with Robert's story line, I I there was a I would be sitting with these models for a long time as they were being sketched. In the case of Robert, I just kinda hung out with him for a day as he was doing gardening work around the church. And in the middle of otherwise mundane comments or statements, there would be these things that you like, hey. Come come on out. Help me move mulch. Make sure you wear your gloves, and I got a thing over here. Oh, the reason I want you to wear gloves because you're probably gonna find a syringe. What? Well, man, that came out of nowhere. You know? That and I think there's and that's human nature too. You kinda the more you talk with folks, the more you let down your guard, and then you have these moments of just revelation.

Well, they had a burial ground there for people, like, homeless people that died, and their ashes were it's, like, so humbling. Yeah. Yeah. And Jane Doe's and, John Doe's and Jane Doe's at the in the in the hospital, and they have them cremated. And there's no way nowhere for them to go. I mean, just think about that. That's just heart wrenching. And so they have an area in the back with the garden, which is part of the garden that Robert maintains where they spread their ashes. And so in in in the in Robert, especially, is just hilarious. I mean, if you ever go to Haywood Street, and I had a friend actually who was there this morning. He texted me that he ran into Robert. Robert was the one giving him the tour of the fresco. Robert is such, a funny guy, but he's gonna tell you like it is. You know? He oh, he'll tell you a joke about the first time he saw Kiss in concert, but then he's gonna take you back to the cemetery in the backyard. Yeah. I'll tell you about that too. I mean, that that's real, man. That's real. And so, there's a power in that, and I I feel like I hope the film taps into that, and and that gets back into, like, hopefully, building enough trust with people that they can really be real with you enough to show you all sides themselves.

So help me let's unpack this then. There is power in telling the truth, like, in just being unvarnished. Right? And the subjects in your in this film don't have the, they're not afforded the opportunity to be varnished. Like, they're just surviving. Right? And and they're some of the apartments that Haywood Street has built, some of the programs they've helped people out of addiction and stuff is giving them more than that. But they're it's they don't they're not afforded the opportunity to be varnished. And we watch a movie like this, we hear stories like this, and we're just drawn to the truth. Mhmm. You know? And so let's talk for a minute about the why the rest of us spend our life, pretending to be somebody we're not. Right? And how, anemic or impotent our stories become.

You go go ahead. Yeah. Go go. Your turn. I mean, you have to kinda whittle everything down into a real simplistic narrative to to to figure out why you're in certain situations. I mean, I think that I think that you're right. Like, that that a lot of folks who are just worried about surviving day to day don't necessarily have that luxury sometimes. I I also feel like, and this was certainly the story with Brian Combs, the reverend of this church. Like, he he mentions, really feeling like when he was doing, urban ministry in Atlanta and being on the streets with people there who, you know, were dealing with needle addiction and things like that, feeling like he was sitting with the living Christ. And that was where he felt most connected to God was in those moments. Man, there's just a rawness to it that I I don't know if I necessarily can say that I I empathize or I or not empathize. I don't know if I could relate to that necessarily, but I there is a power in that realness that we spend most of our lives not necessarily going to those places. And maybe because it's hard, maybe because it makes others feel uncomfortable.

It makes us feel uncomfortable. Yeah. Right. That too. That too. Because you're gonna have to both be on that level, you know, with somebody to to get to that point in a in a way that, you know, the work dealing on the front lines of homelessness too, you're dealing with powerlessness. Like, you're not gonna change homelessness, like, in a in a converse like, that's, I mean, a generational problem. Right? Like, so multifaceted that, like so, you know, Brian's willingness to just be in the streets with people Yeah. Like, talk about, like, man, there's God because you're just dealing with, your overwhelmed powerlessness of, like, how do I solve this? Mhmm. Which makes me think I'm starting to answer my own question. Like, that I don't wanna feel that way ever. You know? Like, I do yeah. I do because I know, like, it's the right answer. Right? You know? But I don't really wanna feel that way. I wanna feel powerful. There's certainly been moments in my life where I felt powerless in bad ways, not in a sense of awe. I felt powerless in a sense of victimization or betrayal or loneliness or shame or those kind of things. Right? So I think I'm as I'm answer I'm thinking of those you're talking, I'm thinking it's like, I have the luxury of hiding from my own story at times or or or at least crafting a persona story that I want people to think, you know, or go along with the story people think about me. Mhmm. And these people can't. Like and they're just like me. Like, one of the guys was telling some of the story, and it's like, oh, I've experienced that. And I was like, I don't wanna remember that right now. Mhmm. You know? Mhmm. And

and I'm Especially in the age we're in now where everybody is is kind of whittled down to social media or what you're seeing of each other on, you know, whatever photo that was shared or whatever else is that, like, yeah. There's no nuance. There's no complexity. It's like we're seeing everybody in this curated light, that is just complete BS. I mean, it's just not it's not what reality is. And so I think that what you're saying is amplified tenfold now. And I have a five year old and a four year old daughter, and it scares me to death to think about how how they're gonna interact with people when they're in high school and beyond, what it's gonna look like in ten years. I I just

I don't Virtual. I'm not on social media much. Yeah. Virtual. Yeah. VR suits. With VR, it'll be With with really Yeah. With with new faces and everything else. Like, I mean, who the heck knows? And so, yeah, you you're spot on. It's like when you're when you're so powerless that you can't hide from your own story, there's a sense of freedom in that in a certain way. Now I'm not saying that that the film in any way provides that. I think that I feel honored that they're able to be as vulnerable with me as they are in a way that most people would not be. And whether that's because they have shared their story enough where they feel comfortable with it, whether that's because to your point when you're on the margins, maybe you don't hide from it as much or you can't hide from it as much.

That's all they've got. It it never seems to be they've got is their story. Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. I mean, it felt like when I was watching it, you've never been a counselor, I'd imagine. Psychotherapist, you've never That's correct. Done that. Good. I'll let you know. Hearing those people in your film tell those stories is a lot like that's one of the moments that I was like, oh, if someone wants to know what it's like to be a therapist, like, this is it. Like, you're just you're sitting and hearing something from somebody, and sometimes you're helping or you're getting to be part of the someone's telling the truth for the first time, or they're coming they're coming into relationship with more truth of themselves

or their story for the first time. You know? Yeah. I mean, I I talked to my documentary film students about this is is that there's multiple professions as a documentary filmmaker. You could be a journalist. You could be a historian. You could be a poet. You could be an activist, or you can be a therapist. And in any film, you may be those things in different parts of the film. Or one film may be much more activist driven, another may be more, you know, therapy driven. I think you're right. Like, I think that that this probably takes on more of the therapist side of of a documentary filmmaker. Not that I'm trained as that, but I just mean in terms of the the storytelling techniques and in terms of, you know, hopefully, maybe it was therapeutic for them as well. I don't know. I'm not trying to inflate inflate the my my, you know, sense of the importance with the film, but I'm just saying that I think there is something therapeutic about hearing, somebody tell their story, but also telling that story. You know?

Yeah. We and you and I are talking before I pressed record, and I was saying to you that, one of the ways that I believe that we understand our life is through narrative, is through story, the structure story. And as Americans, like, we are the hero of our own story. That's a very American western Greek, western thought, like, structure for story. And, and I've been in my head really trying to play around with with that as as I go through my life. Like, what if I'm like the costar? You know? Like, who's the star? What if I'm in an ensemble cast as opposed to, like, everything's about me? You know? Like, we're all inherently narcissistic. I may be a little bit more than the average person. You know? So I'm really trying to, like, but even getting to have my own thoughts is narcissistic. Like, talk like, that's weird. Yeah. Talking through it, it feels weird. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But, like, the to try to be in the grocery store and picture myself as part of the ensemble, Right? And not, like, the lead character. Yeah. You know? I walk up to checkout, and the and the person running to checkout is kind of having a bad day. And it's like, now it's me and her and this thing. It's, is it about me? Is it about her? No. It's really about the guy behind who's now held up because he's just trying to get home to feed his kids. Sure. Sure. Yeah. It's like a it's just that's a probably that's me saying that's not gonna help anybody, but it does feel better for me to say that. I have to remind myself daily or I try to that it's not about

you Yeah. In terms you know, me telling me this. Not you, Stephen. I'm telling myself this. That and I think it's text me daily. I see that it's not about you. But I think it gets to that. Yeah. You and my wife. Yeah. Yeah. You and Heather. I I think that that gets to that, though. We're we're part of an ensemble cast. There's a man, that many many ways, many days, that feels a a lot more comfortable to me. It's not not about us, but it's not about us. Like, they they talk about bad theology where, like, it's not about humans. It's about God. It's like, pretty sure God went through a lot of trouble to make it about people. I believe it makes sense. You know? And

almost everybody who ever lived is gonna be forgotten. Like, there's a few people, like, throughout the course of time that get remembered, but they don't real they don't get remembered. Like, their their avatar their historical avatar gets remembered. That's exactly right. You're you're will you're you are you become a summary of whatever this time and place was. You you're not even really remembered for who you are. You're you're gonna be kind of a composite of the last, you know if if you or I are are the ones remembered from this time in five hundred years, we will have represented. It it won't be us, of course. It won't be us, of course. Whoever that works, whoever that individual is is a composite of, you know, thirty years worth of cultural events and and pop culture and everything else. We may have talked about this actually. I'm I'm reading a book by Chuck Klosterman right now called, What If We Were Wrong that that talks about this, that looks at how how we have you know, we think about, Shakespeare. And we say Shakespeare and we talk about can you name any other playwright from that era of time? Like, absolutely not. There were many. I could because I was an English major, but I could only get one or two. You can. Right? But but my point is that that's ultimately there will be our era Shakespeare for something that will come to represent all the nuances that we now know will not matter in five hundred years. Rock and roll will be summarized as you name it. Chuck Barry, Bob Dylan, the Beatles, whatever. That could be a whole another argument. Oh, man. That you put you put Bob Dylan in rock and roll. We're gonna have to talk about that. Like, I think he's That's that's where this kind of this book kind of does that for all different, genres, essentially. It looks like music and film and things. It's just a the bigger the bigger point is is is what you're getting at, and and that is that we're, you know, we are not remembered, and and you were making a good point at that. And I and I don't wanna end it on a sad note, but we're not remembered. That's the thing. I think it is sad, but I don't think sadness is bad. I think there's something really humbling.

Okay. I agree with that. And and if my if my, like, if I'm able to decouple from my narcissistic fantasy that I'm gonna be remembered for all time. Right? Like, that's we all kinda have this thing, you know, and I can live life on life's terms. Right? Then if it's not if I'm not living to be remembered, then what's my legacy? Right? Like because there's gotta be one. Mhmm. You know? So what is it? Man, I'm I'm working on that. Like, I think it's I certainly love story. I love adventure. I love people. I certainly don't like neediness. I don't like my own neediness. Right? Like, I, I love being all in. You know? I don't know when to quit. Like, when I go grocery shopping, if I start down an aisle, I'm gonna finish that damn aisle. Right? I don't I've been doing a lot of research and writing and thinking for probably the last year on, like, the category, like, personal legend slash calling slash legacy. One of the things I've come to believe is, I took a line out of, citizen republic speech by Teddy Roosevelt, man in the arena, so it's called. And he has this line in there, like, the great devotions, you know, a worthy cause. And it got me thinking about, like, like, the people who commit themselves to a difficult task for a long like a singular difficult thing for a long period of time, like, that's a calling. They end up for forging a calling or and really answering the question life is asking of them in their context. Right? So it's less internal and more like, hey. Life is asking me to participate this way. And if I will stay in that path for a long period of time, you know, there's there's something it's a devotion. That's a devote a great devotion. So certainly my family is something I'm devoting to, my work, and I love coming alongside people and helping them, like, be a better version of themselves, whether it's a therapist or a leadership person or even this, like, sitting out with you. Like, I don't wanna talk about me. I wanna, like, tell people about your movie. You know? I like that. Also like riding motorcycles. There's some way motorcycles fit into that. You know? Yeah. Zen Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. More like, chips is kinda what I'm thinking about. Like

Well, that's cool too. Well, yeah, I like John, not Paunch. I mean, you're either a Paunch or John guy. I'm more of a John guy. But there's about 10 people that got that reference right there, I think. But I think that circles back to, like, not being remembered. It's like, how can I be how can I live my life with the people I'm living with and and be touched by them and touch them in a meaningful way? Like, that's what I'm hoping to, like, I think that's what I'm you asked me, like, what am I doing? It's like, I don't know. I think that, like, maybe write some good poetry along the way. I mean, Yeah. You know? I've been into bird watching lately. Yeah. So that's a that's a thing. They don't care. Like, they actually do not care about me at all.

They're doing their own thing. They're doing their own thing. Yeah. I I see. I just love hearing about it. I think it's I think it's good that you have so many things. I mean, I I think that, that that's an important part of of of living and and staying alive too. And I don't mean that in a morbid way. I just mean, like No. You know, you you we get we we're so prone to get stuck in our habits and what we do and what we're interested in that that becomes like this, you know, monolithic, that's who I am. This is it. It doesn't change. Yeah. You know? And so I I think it's important to try to evolve as much as we can. You know, I'm asking you questions because I'm more comfortable in that in that world. I know. That's not that's not I'm more comfortable in that world. How how have you changed maybe in making this film? Or Sure. Yeah. You mentioned being a dad. Like, how has how have those things changed you?

Well, I mean, I will say I was raised, in a in a, a Catholic family, went to church every Sunday, went to CCD after church. And when I when I left home to go to college We went to Shoney's after church. Oh, you did? Well, we went to Bill and Mary's Diner, but that was only after CCD. This is in this is in Canton, Ohio, by the way. Just to just to set the the setting here. But, you know, when I went to college, I I stopped going to church and I kind of, you know, there was a period of time where I thought, like, am I gonna am I gonna continue kind of openly living as a as a person of faith or not? And there was a number of years where the answer was no. And so it was when I first started doing this film, and I think I mentioned it earlier about, like, the theological storyline and kind of not knowing quite how to handle that, not that it wasn't an important part of the film. I kinda knew in my heart that it was an essential part of the film. I wasn't sure how I felt about it. I wasn't sure how I wanted to grapple with that. And so, one thing that Haywood Street does on a daily basis is this idea of faith through action. You know, they're living out they're living out the these these, these beliefs in ways that are, I think, amazing. I mean, they're they're and how they're helping members of the homeless community in Asheville, I think are lessons that anybody can get behind. And it certainly has, you know, made made me a believer, and, and I mean that in the most general sense. Yeah. And so the film has changed me in that way. And I think that, you know, I mentioned this earlier, having a five and four year old daughter, it's like starting to grapple with how how to talk about, Jesus and how to talk about religion in general. I mean, we have we have friends of all faiths truly. And and, you know, I think this film helped see things a little bit differently in a way that maybe I wasn't beforehand. And I'm not saying that I'm this finished product by any means, but I I do think that it helped kinda open my eyes in a little bit of a different way. And so every film project, I take something with me in addition to putting that film out into the world. This one may be more so than other projects. I feel like I've kinda taken more with it. So,

Man, I don't know if you like, how you can be so intimately involved with other people and not be changed. Right? Like Right. Yeah. I mean, just watching watching the film changed me. I can't imagine making the film and sitting with all that that footage, you know, and sifting through it. And, you know, like, that's that's that's, a lot. You you talked about faith a second ago. The the Jewish word for faith means to build something out of wood. It doesn't mean to believe anything. Right? It's a constructive act. I did not know that. That that resonates with me. So it like, how far our, our, thinking has done that we've turned faith into a belief for, like, a like, it's what I believe as opposed to how like, what I do in the world is actually what I really believe, how I treat people, how I treat myself. Right? That's that's what you believe. Right? And so, I love what Haywood Street's doing there because they've they've actually are really leaning into a, like, a very Jewish philosophy of, like, living building something, doing something, and not just, thinking something. You know? It's very Greek to think something. You know? It's very Jewish to do something, like, in the Hebraic kinda ancient way. And, that's awesome.

And that that actually I mean, I I've not heard that before, but I think that sums it up pretty pretty spot on. You know? You're you're creating something. You're living out something. That is your faith. To me, that's more akin to something I can get behind. That's something that that speaks to me. And so, yeah, I'm chipping away I'm chipping away little by little with that, and I and I think that this film has helped me do that. I'm gonna pitch you a movie. Okay. Okay. A documentary Okay. Is how James Dobson f ed up western culture. Okay. Let's do it. Because there is this idea, that we could that came about in the fifties with really, he would be the metaphor of, like, pop psychology. Right? So I don't really know who he was as a person. I know that, a whole industry was built around if you put your kids through the right factory, they're gonna turn out, a certain way that's gonna make you feel good as a parent. Right? Yeah. And, I think there's a on a meta level, there's a whole way to confront the narcissism in western culture with that idea. You know? Because no matter where I go to speak, no matter what I'm talking about I was speaking to leaders about, like, values and business and how that's important the other day, and we ended up talking about kids. Like, people wanna talk about their children Yeah. They're scared. Scared to death of their children. They're scared to death of being out of control. Right? Yeah. And there's this thing that happened in the nineteen fifties that began '50, '60, seventies, eighties that begin to move us away from philosophicalness, and move to a more scientific model of psychology of reproducing people. And that's weird. That's super weird. And so, there there's my pitch. No one's gonna watch that but me, but

You know? There you go. There's a there's a core audience built into it, though. It may be only 10 people, but there's a clear core audience. It's called parrots. Well, that that too. But, you know. Yeah. Well, thank you for spending time with me. Absolutely. I I hope this is, enjoyable to your listeners. I've had a fun time. Yeah. I have too. I think, my takeaways are, how do we see the unseen? Like, how do we pay attention to the the faces of people that aren't like our own, and know that they have a story that's a lot like our own, and it's a story worth hearing. I'm taken away that I'm not the center of the story no matter how I'd like to be. That's good. I'm I'm taken away that, doing something with what I believe is perhaps really belief as opposed to just thinking it or wanting it to be true. And I'm also I wrote down in my notes, I won't tell the truth until I have no other option. I'm taking that away. And so so I think documentary filmmaking is, like, super important, from a cultural standpoint. Like, in in we need to tell stories, and we need people who are capturing stories. So I'm glad that you're teaching people to do that. And, so thanks.

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I mean, I'm happy to do it. I'm happy to talk with you. This has been a cool conversation, and, yeah, check check out the film, I guess. Can I give my obligatory film piece? Yes. I was gonna say, how can people find it, watch it? It was on PBS, but now it's fun. By the time they listen to this, it may it may not be on pbs.org anymore. So if you go to theirs is the theirs is thekingdomfilm.com, there's a list of places to see it, but you could watch it on Apple TV, on Google Play, pbs.org, depending on when you're listening to this podcast. And people that think, right, if they want if they liked it and wanted to have their own screening Yeah. You can there's even no way to do that. On your web on the website, do you wanna go host your own screening at your church or, your organization? We've done a number of community screening events that have been really great. And so yeah. They get the the best place. So just go to theirs is thekingdomfilm.com, and then everything will be kinda laid out for you there. K. K. When are you coming back to Nashville? Hopefully soon, actually. A few people I met at the screening connected me with some more people, and so It was weird. I saw you one night, then I just kept running into Then I saw you the next day. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

I'm like, this guy's stalking me. Yeah. I'll be in Charlotte in a few weeks. Maybe Oh, you are. Are you close to Charlotte? I'm about two hours. Fifteen hour twenty Northeast of Charlotte. Well, if I've got nothing to do, I'll drive towards you and Hey. See if I can find out. Just let me know. That'd be great. Okay. Yeah. Alright, man. Good talking to you. Alright. Thank you. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.