Sexual Trauma

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey. This is Stephen James. Thanks for listening to the Live Fully podcast. Here at Sage Hill, one of the passions that we have and one of the commitments we have is to help women and men heal from sexual trauma. Sadly, it's very common, And some some statistics show it's more common than not common that women experience levels of shame and disconnection and isolation and fear and anxiety, because of how they have been mistreated sexually by people of power, both men and women, who take advantage of people. A big core of the work we have done here historically and continue to do is help women and men heal from and through those experiences. Kristen and Ingrid lead a workshop here at Sage Hill called hashtag me too workshop, which is designed to help women grow and heal from sexual trauma. And I wanted them to come on the podcast, and we get to talk about it and and begin to, like, shed light on problems and begin to show a path for solutions and healing and growth for people who that's sadly part of their story. So here's a short conversation we've had. If you find it helpful, I'm glad. Please share it with somebody that you might feel benefits from it. And if there's anything we can do to help, please reach out. Let us know. Hey, Ingrid. Hey, Kristen.

Hi. I'm so glad y'all were open to do to doing the podcast for Stay Chill, though we're talking about something kinda heavy today. We're not talking about, like, some of the light things we sometimes talk about or the silly things. And so, I'm a little nervous about doing this because I, like, I like laughing on these things and telling jokes, and Mhmm. There's nothing really funny about what we're talking about today. So thank you all for coming on. The reason I wanted to have you on is because I admire the work you're doing here at Sage Hill, specifically, in your work around helping women heal from sexual trauma. And, we all know, the three of us know, that that's not an uncommon thing. And, sadly, it's more common than any of us would wanna know. And with that, y'all have created some moments both in your individual work and in workshop work that you do to help women begin to navigate healing and growth and transformation and not be so defined by, their trauma and and their heartache. So I want us to just kind of, like, just talk about that today and talk about, the effects of historic sexual trauma and and and recent sexual trauma for women and, like, what we can do about it to to recover from it. And so that's that's all I've that's my agenda. But I think I would start to ask, like, kick it off. The question would be is, what makes you drawn to that?

I can start. This is Ingrid. I would say it is a very odd thing to be drawn to. You know, when, you know, when you tell new people you meet that you're a therapist, there you know, there's always like, oh, they want you to be a physical therapist or something because that's uncomfortable. They're like, And then when you talk more when I talk more about the work I do with, you know, sexual trauma, then it's like, oh, boy. So but and so that's been something I've contemplated, and I think that really our relationship with our bodies, our identity, and intimacy are violated so deeply through sexual trauma. And so it's really the hope of restoration in those things that is that is so powerful and has drawn me to this work because I see how deeply it harms people and impacts people for generations. And then also, you know, not look. Yes. Generations, not just within one person's lifetime. So I I guess I see where there's a lot of pain. There's a lot of hope and healing.

Oh, thank you, Ingrid. What about you, Kristin? What draws you to this work? I was actually talking to a friend today about why I couldn't do something tonight, and I said, well, I'm doing a podcast. She was like, oh, wow. Like, she's an artist friend, like, super cool. And I was like, well, I'm actually talking about sexual trauma. And she was like, oh. She's like, wow. Yeah. I kinda forget. Like, the like, she knows what I do, but it's almost she kinda forgets because she kinda pushes it away, or we can do that sometimes with the work that we do. And so I think for me, it's just I think so much begins and ends with, like, what Ingrid was saying with our body and with just our own experiences of shame. And I think that, like, as we're growing up, it's like things that are said to us or things we experience, those do have these ripple effects later on in life. And I think that if we don't go back and really address those core memories or experiences, a lot of times through sexual trauma and shame, then you are kinda creating a separate identity sometimes. You don't even know who the real person is because they've gotten so lost along the way, because they're making a lot of decisions based upon their reaction to things instead of maybe how they really feel because they don't wanna get hurt again. So let's stop for a second because y'all both have said a ton. I wanna, like, start going into that.

One, you both said that the work you do is odd because, like, most people don't wanna talk about that or address it or don't wanna don't wanna know it's there. You know? But you said, when people ask what you do and you start talking about what you do, they they wish you were a physical therapist. You know, because it's so much more comfortable. Right? And, Kristen, you're a friend who, like, was hoping your podcast was about fashion or something but, you know. Right. And so why do y'all think that something so common and, what you said, Ingrid, and echo you echoed, Kristen, that so touches the core of fracturing the human experience. Why do you think we don't wanna talk about it generally or know about it or admit that it's part

of part of the human story? Oh, shame. I mean, a 100%. How so? I mean, I think that there's so much shame for women and men about thinking that whatever happened to them was they played a part and that they carry some of that responsibility if they wouldn't have done x y z or worn that or drink that or hung out with that person, then maybe that wouldn't have happened to them being part of their story. Do you hear do y'all hear that a lot? Like, people say that a lot? Like, the idea that if I had you Yes. Yeah. Every client, and I mean it. Like, every client I've ever had who has had sexual trauma in their history has said, well, you know, if it it wasn't if it was this situation, if it was in a back alley and there was a gun, then it would be legitimate. Like, it wouldn't be my fault, or it wouldn't be you know, I could've maybe done this, or I could've done that. Like, there's no one I've worked with that says this bad thing happened to me, and I know it's not my fault at the beginning of our work. Like, that just has never happened.

So one reason we don't wanna talk about it is shame. We don't acknowledge it as shame. So you say that also here a a level of powerlessness to it. Mhmm. Like, that that the shame almost comes to a sense of, like, I didn't have any power of like, I was I was powerless in this. I was is that do you find that to be true? I find that there is a perception of parallel there's a perception of power and control in it. Like, there's this dichotomy of being victimized, but then not wanting to admit that. And so it's much ease it's much more comfortable to have that self contempt and shame than to say someone hurt me. So I would add on shame and just the the reality of the pain and the depth of the pain. People don't wanna look at pain. You know, we we wanna move away from it.

What do you think? I mean What do I Go ahead. You, I mean, we all look for an escape when it comes to pain. Like, that's why addiction exists in this world, and we all have our ways of avoiding it. And so something that is so deep in in which we don't have power over is is really, really scary to know. Like, I was hurt in a way, and I had no control in it. And I think another reason why we don't talk about it too is because there's this dissociation and freezing that happens with the trauma part where it's almost like it's almost like a hamster wheel. Like, even though there's a freezing part, there's still, like, this ruminating of, like, if I would have done something different, right, where you can't get out of that cycle. So it's like, let me just associate and put it to the side and not think about that, because that can be really exhausting because it feels like there's no way out. Just like the trauma, it felt like there was no way out. Right? And so it's kinda like replaying itself.

That makes total actually, it makes sense to me. I'm gonna say it back and tell me. So one of the ways we cope initially with, like, having harm done to us, especially around, like, the the sexual categories of power and humiliation and shame and, is to adopt an idea that I could have done something to stop it, or I could have done like, I have a part to play in this. And when that doesn't work, we tend to dissociate and push it aside the pain. And you talk about the pain and the fear of having to look at it again and having to deal with it again. It's like it's so scary and so painful that I just don't like, I just wanna not have to deal with that. Yeah. I think it's so what I know and what y'all know is, most people who are coming to this work to deal with it, that's not what they're coming that's not what they initially sometimes people are going, hey. This happened to me, and I know that was that's a core issue, and I need to address it. Right? Mhmm. Often, people come into therapy, to deal with their sexual trauma, and that's not the first thing we hear about. Right? Mhmm. We hear about these other symptoms or other not symptoms. These some of them are symptoms, but others are just manifestations of coping. What are some of the things that, you all heard people come into get help for? And as you do work over weeks or months, you find out, like and they find out there's this other core story that's driving it. What are some of the symptoms or the initial, like, asking for help causes? You mentioned addiction, Ingrid. That that was that's something. What else?

Definitely anxiety and OCD, I think, that comes up a lot. Just trying to control their relationships or their job or their kids or, you know, feeling like this deep disappointment and shame. Like, I can't manage it all, you know, and hypervigilance. And, yeah, that's definitely the tip of the iceberg, you know, and then finding out yeah. Like you said, like, the other story underneath, you know, is kind of coming out, but it's coming out sideways almost. What about you, Ingrid? Like, what do you hear? I I definitely have heard eating disorders, disordered eating, low sex drive, or lack of interest and depression and panic attacks. That's I just I just have panic attacks. I don't know why. Like, I've definitely heard that. Yeah. And and to be clear, we're not talking about people with repressed memories.

Like, I'm not I'm not thinking about like, we're talking about people who know this really bad event happened. At some level, they can name this event, but they're so disconnected from the event and their current life. Like, I like what you said, Kristen, that a lot of this stuff is coming out sideways, and they don't understand the significance of the impact of their sexual trauma and how it infects their whole life. They all is that something that you you say yes? It's just very common to even in from I I would say most clients who come into my office are working on family of origin or all the other things we mentioned and might even, you know, sign up to do an intensive or a workshop or something like that and be really focused on this is what I wanna work on. And then it'll trickle down or, like, you know, will drill down, and it really comes down to their their sexual trauma. Mhmm. Really unlikely correlations will will show up.

That I think we've as a sexual trauma survivor and healer, my like, I haven't experienced that myself and healed through it a lot. I think the things that I did to disconnect myself from it, you know, that became my other man the other things, my anxiety or my performance based identity or my lack of attachment, like, that kind of stuff. Like, I was so focused on those things as a way to disconnect that it was so hard for me to begin to look at those narratives, you know, those stories, those moments. Because I'd spent my whole life trying to run away from it. The the problem I found is, like, the harder like, all roads were kinda leading me back to but then that I started getting in touch with me, I had to get in touch with my shame, and then I could and my fear and my hurt and my loneliness. And then I those experiences kept leading me away from the symptoms and back to the the narrative of the stories. Right? The core stories. And there's something you said, Ingrid, at the beginning that it kinda when you're introducing yourself, that I I think and I what do y'all think about this when I say this? That there's a way that sexual trauma fragments the human heart like almost nothing else. Like, in a way it touches and shatters into all these different places in a person in a way that other things don't. Do you is that accurate? I think it's accurate, but not

I mean, I I would I I would say it depends it all depends on how so, for example, like, if if someone experienced sexual trauma later on in life and had a secure attachment within their family, then may it I don't think it would impact them nearly as much. I think Okay. There's a strong connection around neglect and sexual trauma that that's where it is. It just is so damaging. Not having any more more about that? Yeah. So if if a child experienced sexual trauma, they came home and said, mom, this thing happened to me, and mom said, it wasn't your fault. Tell me everything that happened. I'm here with you. You know, let's make sure you're gonna be safe, and then it never happens again. That absolutely can be damaging, but compare it to it always being a secret or that disclosure being rejected and then repetitively being abused.

Those are it's just a totally different And then and then the loneliness and isolation that goes along with that that and now I I guess that would be true, like, at any age, not just as a child. But Right. Like, even Especially as a child. But but but and especially as a child. So let's can we talk a little bit about this continuum of, like I mean, trauma is a word that's been around a lot. Right? But we talk about sexual trauma and this lack of support. Like, I think about it from, like, violence on one end and, pleasure on the other, for lack of a better term. Right? It and that just because there's something that you enjoyed, it doesn't mean it wasn't traumatic. Is that Mhmm. Like, the violent stuff's kinda easy to go. That's trauma. I think what I've experienced in working with people is is my my body said yes. My heart said no. And my brain was confused. And in that, I'm fractured. Like, just that, like, a person's own ambivalence in the hands of a perpetrator can be just totally destructive to an individual. And then you have so that's one axis. Another axis would be, like, how well do I know this person? Mhmm. And that and there's whole ramifications of, do I is it a stranger? That's really scary and traumatic. Is it somebody I know? That's really scary in the story ending too. Right? Like so it doesn't fit neatly, like, in defining sexual trauma, like, just saying, like, it's this. Because there's this whole weird spectrum. What are how how so I'm trying to put words to this thing that's, like, I think it's hard to put words to. But how how when you're talking with clients, like, how does that spectrum show up for you in in and how clients begin to face this stuff?

I mean, Stephen, I think you're the one, you know, a few years ago that what you're just explaining, that sexual trauma quadrants, you know, that we'd be using for our workshops has been so helpful to give this language and this kind of new, introduction to what sexual trauma even is to these clients because they're so used to being in that, like, what, like, ten percent of you know, in back alley or leaving a store and someone pulling you gunpoint and, you know, taking advantage of you that way instead of it being so many other ways that you can be harmed, like, you know, through, online, you know, like, that's where Yeah. The assessment of it, like, of that, like, online. Yeah. Like, being online and, like, feeling like someone's, like, trying to get something from you or you need to send a picture or you don't want to. You know? Like, even those things can be traumatic and feel like Mhmm. Someone is trying to take something from me, and I am feeling scared, and I don't know what to do. Maybe if I just give in, it'll be over. Right? And so there's, like, sometimes that, like, thought, and so there's just a lot of it just I think I think what we're I think in some ways what we're trying to do is to make it more, I don't know, like, accessible to have these conversations and to share more about what sexual trauma even is so women don't feel as much shame if they're not alone. And a lot of stories that they carry like you said earlier, we don't work with repressed memories. I don't think we do, but I also think sometimes they're kind of in black and white. And it's like those are old, and then they start to kinda come in color. And it's like, oh my gosh. That happened. And then this happened and this happened, and dots are connecting.

So that's What do you think, Ingrid? It is such a wide spectrum. You know, sexual trauma, it can be you know, no words need to be said. Words can be said. No touch can happen. You know? Like, it's just, it could be exposure to pornography at a young age. It could be I was talk I was talking to a woman recently, and she was talking about a professional. Like, let's say I mean, it wasn't a doctor, but let's say it was a doctor because it was similar to a doctor. And he made a suggestive comment, right, that totally, like, was really I mean, he's the the way he said that, what he said, when he said it, like, sent sent this really capable, smart, strong woman spinning. Mhmm. You know, questioning herself. And and

And questioning authority. Right? Like, you're some authority. Authority figure. And that's and it happened, like, in and and she she was asking me, like, hey. Is this off? Like, was this spelled off? Was it off? Like, she'd come to strong like, a a a hopefully legitimate authority and said, this felt off. Was this off? Like, it's like, oh my gosh. Like, I was so like, she was in trauma. Mhmm. You know? She's trying to put the pieces back together. And Mhmm. Like so, yeah, like what you said, Ingrid, there was no touching. There was nothing obvious, but there was a boundary violation Right. And a use of power and privilege to get some kind of by the by the perpetrator to get some kind of self gratification or arousal Mhmm. Right, from somebody who didn't wanna it wasn't mutual. Exactly. You know? And that's so that's one end of the spectrum, and the other end is somebody, like, doing something really violent. And it all creates disorganization inside of a person. It all inflects shame. It all creates fear and loneliness and confusion.

I would even, yeah, I would even say it's what is really disheartening is, you know, the concept of consent, of course, is getting is talked about a lot more, which is really, really great and important, and perpetrators are using it to their advantage. So it's they're where they'll get a verbal like, they'll manipulate a verbal consent without actually, like, getting a enthusiastic con you know, yes. And so that is so confusing because well, I said yes. He asked. And so It's it's really insidious, and and it's it is crazy making. So it is thank you. I think that that's a really good definition of trauma. It's crazy making. Like, that's a that's one really helpful definition. You know? So, like, we've talked we defined the problem. I think we've defined it well. Like, what what's the help that people get? Like, and what's how do you begin to define that, and what are some of the what's some of the framework that you all think through when it comes to helping somebody resolve these narratives and heal and grow through through these stories?

I mean, I think I think one thing that I try to work on with my clients and I think Ingrid was together in our workshop and hopefully in the group too is helping, these women have more of their voice. Because even if they do have this, like, feel manipulated or, like, okay. I said yes, but I didn't want to. It's like, well, there's still a big story there. Right? Like, what were they taught about their yeses and their noes? What were they taught about knowing themselves, you know, and understanding that their voice does have power, you know, and they can walk away and they, you know, and so I think in some ways it's relearning what it means to have themselves again. And just like, you know, the person you know, Stephen, who was able to say to you, hey, like, this fell off. Like, that's huge. Right? And she didn't just go home and shame herself. She was able to talk about it. And so I think that's kind of the the some of the healing parts that we're trying to move into.

One thing I love about the workshop that we've done is really just giving language to survivors of that's okay. I experienced that. I thought it was off. I didn't know what it was. Now I know what it is. And that's just really powerful. Just knowing this step one, just knowing what is sexual trauma and being able to identify. Yeah. I went through that. And then being able to come together with other women and another woman can validate, oh, yeah. That same thing happened to me. And that externalizing that that empathy and compassion that they have for another woman who went through something similar, I believe helps them start to extend some compassion and empathy towards themselves. And not feel so lonely. Like, no one in the Right. Yeah. That because they took a vibe it's both those things are happening.

So, yeah, I mean, it's almost like, you know, recognizing and then grieving and then healing. Right? It's like Mhmm. This process to kind of you have to go through it to get the, you know, the victory of the healing. You know? Like, to actually like you said Stephen earlier, like, you tried to run away from some of those things, but you all roads can't lead you back there, you know, and it's like you've gotta go through it to I tell, like, clients sometimes, it's almost like crawling through one of those little tunnels at the playground, you know. It's like you gotta go through this to get to the other side. It might be dark inside. You know? My kids get in there. I mean, they like it. They have fun. But at the same time, to get the other side, you it's a different scenery. It doesn't look the same. You know? You've gotta go through it.

What more would you want someone to know about about, like, female sexual trauma? Like, as a woman, like, what would you want people to know? This is not encouraging, but it's true. Like, it's not gonna go away. And you deserve to be able to heal through it, and you deserve to have full connection with yourself and to have your power back. Kristen, what about you? I think I really want women to know that you don't have to lump your body and your sexuality and your heart all in one category if that is scorned. Right? It's bad. I think to be able to, like, celebrate your body, your sexuality, like, that the womanhood of, you know, who you are and healing those things that have hurt you, but continuing to rise above that. Right? Like, I think that there needs to be, like, this continual, like, just because that part of me was hurt doesn't mean I have to, like, you know, completely cover up every part of me or have to completely shun away from, like, any co events to co, you know, with men and women. I don't know. I just think there needs to be, like, this healthy version of not shamelessness, but, you know, healthy version of being a woman and being able to have experiences, but at the same time, grow from them.

Thank y'all. That was really good. Like, especially what y'all just said at the end. Like, it was very inspiring, to me and very compassionate. I really do I said at the beginning, I really do respect and admire the work y'all are doing here at Sage Hill, and, I'm grateful that that we we have that. But, I pre also appreciate you sharing for other people to kinda hear about hope, to hear because I I think if if a person's not dealt with that and that like, if they've experienced some level of trauma and disorientation and shame and loneliness and fear through the category of sexual trauma, you can feel like kinda like you y'all are alluding to. Like, you're the only person, and I'm uniquely messed up. Mhmm. You know? And I think just this conversation to hear that, like, sadly, you're not uniquely messed up. That's awful. And the good news is you're not uniquely messed up. Like, you're Yeah. You're not alone. You're not alone. Yeah. You're not alone. And there's help. Yeah. And there's toke and there's healing. And and the pragmatic I I think I think what you said actually is encouraging, Ingrid, that it doesn't like, we're not erasing the past, but we're transforming the past. Like, it doesn't have to be a mark of contempt, a mark of lovingness. It actually can be a mark of power and growth and, you know, reconciliation and restoration and, like, all those things. You know, that that's encouraging. That that it's not the final. That sexual trauma and the ramifications of it don't have to be the final story in a person's life. Yeah. Mhmm. It's good. Well, thank you all. It was really good. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thanks for listening to the podcast. I know that's some heavy information, but I also hope you found encouragement and he and hope in what we were talking about. That if that's part of your story, if sexual trauma is part of your story, it's not something you have to live with alone, and it doesn't have to continue to be, the centerpiece of of, like, your internal world. That it it can be displaced with hope and joy and healing and reconciliation and empowerment and encouragement. And if there's a way that we can help, ask just reach out. We're here to help.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well@sagehillresources.com.