There Is No Cure for Life

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hi. This is Stephen James, executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast. Taking a little turn here today, and we flipped the tables. Kate Prevost, therapist at Sage Hill, a long time friend, is interviewing me, for the next few podcasts. So sit back and enjoy and listen to what Kate has to pull out of me today. It's quite a ride. Hey, Stephen. Hey, Kate. It's Kate Prevost. I'm interviewing Stephen James today on the podcast. The

the Stephen James. The one and only. Yes. If we were custody, we could say Stephen f e James. Someone said that. So good to see you. Good to see you. We're in a digital world. We are going to start off the year off the year off right, January 2023, and talk about how there's no pure to life. Oh, gosh. Let's start the New Year with the most hope and optimism. There's no cure to life. We are in this life. We are in this life, and for that, there is no cure. Somebody really wise said that. Okay. Thank you. Samuel Beckett. That's why I'm interviewing you. Because Samuel Beckett wrote a play where a person makes a quote, there is no cure for life. You know, actually, it's weird. I mean, it sounds not hopeful, but it's actually a really hopeful, optimistic statement, you know, because, this may not be what you wanna talk about, but this is what comes to mind, is it sounds so bleak, and yet what's bleaker that there's no cure for life is an attempt of living a life where I try to find a cure for living as opposed to a life that's meaningful and rich and true and noble and worthy and, messy. Right? I think, yeah. Wow. So maybe that's good. Yeah, there is no cure for life, and we're in

it. Yeah. I did I found myself coming back to that a lot this year. There's no cure for life, but there it it was the only quote thing that I could come back to where I wasn't spinning and my head wasn't spinning. Or I would be talking to a friend, and and so, like, that's how every conversation would end. We'd be like, okay. Bye. Like, how's the The image the image that just came out is being goodbye. So you may you found a way to end a bad conversation. Judith said there was no cure for life. Yeah. That was the fix. That was the cure. So just pictures you're, like, talking. You're thinking. You're living your life, and I feel this way. There's, like, a metaphor of my head, like, spinning around looking for some relief. Yeah. You know? I looked I looked to the hills. Where does my help come from? You know, like, I can't everywhere I look, there's no help coming. I'm looking for a way I'm I'm aware in me that, when I get on the train of riding my feelings, I start looking for a way out of my feelings. Right? What's the way out of being human? My sister said to me this weekend, she goes, do your feelings drive your car too? And I was like, what? And she was like, yeah. Like, my feelings drive my car. I'm like, is that a metaphor? She's like, yes. It's a metaphor. It's She's like, oh, okay. Books. Yeah. She's been reading books. Yeah. So I was like, yes. My feelings drive my car sometimes. That's that's who I am. And I think sometimes I my head starts spinning looking for a way to, for a way out of this thing, a way out of, the discomfort, the unpredictability, the joy, the sorrow, the hope, the dread, the misgivings, the regret, the shame, the Uh-huh. Loneliness, like, of like, there's gotta be a cure for this thing. You know? And there there's not, and I'm not sure that it's broken. I'm not sure that life is broken. Life might be might be right, which is a pretty in some circles of the world, it's a pretty radical idea that life is not broken.

I think so. Yeah. I think you said something really big there. Life is not broken. Yeah. Life's not broken. Yeah. Tell me more about that. Well, there's some there's some man, now now I'm gonna get myself in trouble, but let's do it. Let's let's ride. Let's walk this edge. Are you talking about theologically, like, theologically in trouble, or how are we all in trouble? Talking about, like, all all of yeah. Theologically in trouble, the nature like, just pragmatically. Because if life stopped broken, then I can't I can't externalize my problems on, another person or a situation, or I can't blame somebody else for the world, then the then the natural and I can even hear myself thinking it, so I know other people are thinking it. Well, then it must be my fault. Right? It's not the world's fault or God's fault or, you know, that that really bad word, Satan's fault, the one who shall not be named, Dumbledore's fault. Not Dumbledore. Who's the one that could not be named? The snakey guy with no nose?

And he would make that that sound. Yes. Yeah. I thought your generation, you would know. That's like your gen that's the Star Wars of your generation is Harry Potter. I know Lord of the oh, I was thinking Lord of the Rings. That guy that goes No. You're thinking, like no. The one who could not be named is the Harry Potter guy. So Okay. I see. I've never gotten to Harry Potter. Can't help you there. So this this place this place we live as humans is is like, we want to blame someone for the pain of the world. And if we can't blame somebody else, then we wanna blame ourselves. Right? And what I one of the things I've been coming to, is the idea that, like, everything belongs. You know, everything belongs. And there's nothing that's been created, or there's nothing that is. There's nothing that exists and being and becoming that doesn't belong. Right? And so everything is part of the big story. And so when I when I quit looking for a way out and start looking for a way in, the story changes. You know? And a lot of us will look for a way into the story because, like, we can't get away from it. It's like the going on a bear hunt. Like, can't go over it. I can't go under it. You know? I must go through it. You know that story? Like, I'm going on a bear hunt. Yeah. I read it to my girls. To the girls? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that one. Going on a bear hunt. Gotta catch a big one. What a beautiful day. We're not scared. Like, even the denial. We're not scared. I know. I was thinking that when I read it. I was like, sounds scary, but okay. I'm going on a bear hunt to have to convince myself in denial that I'm not scared. It's like, well, no. It's actually very scary to go to bear hunt. But they in the story, they confront, like, a river, a big cold river, you know, or forest, a dark blue they confront all these scary things, and they can't they can't find a way around it. They can't go over it. They can't go under it. They have to go through it. Right? Mhmm. And in going through it, they like, that's the story. So there's something

And that's how they get out of the get away from the bears. They they're through all that stuff again. They don't have to stop and think about it. They go to to yeah. Back to it all. Right? Till they get back home. Like, that's such a I didn't know we were gonna talk about this. This is beautiful. That's such a mythic story. Like, it's so true on these people who are going out into the world to look for something that's dangerous and and raw and real. And then when they encounter it and they encounter the other, the the there's something big and mystical about a bear. Right? And when they encounter the other, the thing they were looking for, they get so scared, they run back home.

Yeah. And it's almost like, oh, this is where I wanna be is home. Like, I needed to come out here to be settled in a place called home with my family. Oh, okay. I knew I knew I needed to go out into the elements and know what home was or is. Oh, So so that's what I'm saying. It's like, when we get out of this dualism of blame something else or blame me, and we start seeing that everything belongs and there's something genuine or true about everything that we to look for. But even in that, like, we have to leave home in order to find home, like, in order to value home, to know what home is. And that that's part of, like, so many stories, right, of whether it's the the Hebrew story of the promised land, whether it's, the alchemist and the, Santiago's story of looking for the the treasure where he has to find where the treasure really is, whether it's a children's book that we read our kids when they were little about toot and puddle, these two little pigs. And one was a homebody, and one was an adventurer. And it was Two parts of ourselves. Always two parts of ourselves. Right? And so, you know, so the the world I'm not sure. I'm I'm absolutely sure, and I'm trying to practice believing that the world is not broken. And the world is actually made the way the world is needs to be made, and it's made right and good. And so am I. That doesn't mean that I am sufficient for the or, yeah, absolute like, whatever, like, the I I I don't have it in me, and I don't believe anybody has it in themselves alone to, like, make life work. Right? Mhmm. That's why we actually need relationship and community and need something outside of ourselves, vibrant relationship with God, with other people in order to make to live life on life's terms, in order to move through life on the bear hunt, like, to move into it and through it and not looking for an escape. We need other people. And and when we find those people in the adventure, we actually find home. We actually find this really rich experience of home because home really is the people more than is the place. Exactly. I know Heather like, she feels so like home to me. So like home. I was trying to flirt with her in the kitchen the other day, which part of our flirting is just the flirting in her what's we spend our lives in the kitchen. You know? Like, most people, like, it's either, like, on the couch or it's in the kitchen. In the kitchen. Yeah. It's A lot of good stuff. So, we were in the kitchen, and I was trying to flirt with her. And part of her flirting back is to act like it doesn't really bother her. It doesn't, like, move her, which is Not interested. I need to make she's not interested. So it's like this cat mouse thing, which is, I think, kinda fun, kinda playful, and she teases me about it. And in that, it's like, oh, gosh. She's my home. Like, she is my like, our marriage and her love and our relationship is my home. And, and I'm a go away adventure person. Right?

Mhmm. Like, I'm always planning the next adventure. Is that Tootie? Are you Tootie, the the pig? What's the name of that pig? Toot and Puddle, not Tootie. It's a whole different thing. It seems like Toot Tootie Toot would be a adventure for sure. Puddle sounds like a Like a whole body. I'm not sure. But in our relationship, like, I'm I'm one end and she's the other, and I pull her into adventure, and she pulls me into sanctuary, into rest, into home. And there's something really beautiful in that. I think my growth edge over the last decade has been, like, learning to be at home and myself, at like, learning to be still, learning to, trust that things are I don't have to make the world be what it's not. I don't have to save the world. I can just be in the world. And, a friend of mine said, like, just be be brave like water and just kinda go where it goes. You know? Mhmm. I was like, oh, yeah. That's I I kinda try to cut a path.

Right. You wanna you wanna be the water that goes upstream. And I've I've been practicing. Like, it's been a it's a long time coming, and I'm still still becoming. It's like, how do I be you know, Heather's so present oriented that invites me to be present. And I'm so future oriented that invites her to dream and hope. And, you know, and that's a good tension. It's a good Yeah. Good tension we live in. And it all belongs. Like, everything belongs. That's a radical idea. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking when you're saying home and home with Heather, thinking if you're trying to find a cure there, what that what that might do to what you just described. She's she's the one calling you into sanctuary and rest, and and you're the one calling her to hope and to dream. If you were looking for a cure there because that's I mean, I I know you, and I know that that must be hard for you to find a home

in the rest. Anywhere. Yeah. Anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. I'm always looking for a home, and I can't find it because it's right there. Yeah. And that does not feel and I think the struggle there is that it doesn't feel always like what you would think home would feel on your body. It's not Yeah. I well, I've got such a warped home. That's what yeah. That's what I was thinking. I mean, a lot of people, us, me, like, the sense of home imprinted in me was lonely and erratic and chaotic at times, abusive at times. And so I I mean, I didn't thank you. It's a great free therapy session. This is awesome. Because I've not connected the dot or maybe I have and I've forgotten. But, like, I spent so much of my adolescence, like, going, like, riding a bike after school for a lot of miles, playing on teams, being involved at school, being involved at church. Like, I I found so much belonging to myself and to others outside of home. You know? And I think that's how I realized that. That was my cure for life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like it

but also is your gifting too. So My survival strategies became my calling card That's good. Which is what we all do. Right? Totally. You know? That's what we all do. And so we've we've realized that our survival strategies are just our failed attempts to try to cure life instead of live our lives and enjoy our lives. And by joy, I mean, not happy, I mean, like, live into the fullness of our lives, and that it all belongs. All if we belong to our what would it be like for us to live this question of how do I belong to my life instead of how do I try to control my life? How do I belong to my life today? Where is life asking me to participate? Where is my life asking me to participate? And sometimes that's to be, still. Sometimes that's to be active. Sometimes that's to remember. Sometimes that's to, you know, take risk and, like, you know, that there's a it's Ecclesiastes. Right? Like, every season, there's a time. There's a time for mourning, a time for weeping, a time for celebration, a time for grief, a time for beauty, a time for loss. And it's all fits under under the banner of creation. You know? And that that book that, like, the short Jewish poem is so freaking wise over and this idea that it all belongs. Like, everything belongs, and there's a time and a purpose for everything. It was so important that John Lennon wrote a song about it. You know? Like, it's like a great,

great song. Yeah. That's the only thing I hear when I hear that. Yeah. You know? And, everything's turning. Everything's turning. Everything's turning over and over again. And I think that's that idea that I'm trying to live into, has been a real freedom for me. Like, trying instead of trying to right the wrongs of the world, which I do believe there's, like, justice and advocating for things and being a, you know, an activist, I do say that's very valuable work. Right? It's, and then and I think it life is asking us participate in in the, in the fight for justice and peace and mercy and good things, but maybe not every day. Right? So I'm asking the world, like, how do I belong? How do I need to belong to my life today? It's like sometimes it's where do I need to stand up, and sometimes it's where I where do I need to lie down. You know? Mhmm. And, me, I'm always looking for the fight. You know, where's the fight?

Let's chest up. Yeah. What'd you say? I said, let's chest up. Let's chest up. Yeah. Let's chest up. Like a sport player. What's up? Just stand up. What's up? Yeah. Yeah. I think I think what question's coming up for me as you're talking is what how do you know when your body is moving towards maybe a cure? And and how do you know yeah. When you when do you lay and surrender? When do you rise? How have you begin to notice those patterns? I keep trying harder to work that worse. Like, maybe that ain't working. Okay. So, yeah, what ends up happening maybe? Yeah. What happens at the end of the road of that? Yeah. When when I keep ending up in the, cul de sac of my own good ideas. Right? It's like I just keep going round and round. You know? Like, that's that I might not be seeing the world accurately. I might or I might be, animating myself in it in a way that's not generative or life giving, or, you know, creates destruction or, that's one way I've seen it. Another way is people have told me about it. And and I've not always listened as well. Not I recognize, there are some things in my life that people have said to me or around me or about me, over and over again. And sometimes they're like, it's the same thing. It's like a blessing. Sometimes it's a curse. Sometimes it's like an observation. And rare I mean, it's like, I haven't always heard what people were saying, you know, the feedback I've gotten or the encouragement I've gotten. And and so some of it's like me recognizing some things, how like, your question, how do I recognize I'm trying to cure life? It's like, oh, like, me doing the same thing, it doesn't change anything. So maybe I need to, like, not look for a fight today. And sometimes it's other people who have said some things to me. And then sometimes it's like just the graciousness of God is like, I learned this new thing this week, and, I have to go research it more. So I say this with the caveat, like, the asterisk of, like, this is, like, barely researched.

Oh, yeah. That's how I live my life. So you that's welcome, Kiera. Yeah. So I'm gonna go do some research about this, and I'll report back later. But the the Hebrew word for prayer does not mean to petition God to change God's mind. But that's, like, not the word is something you do to yourself. Almost like bathing or, it's something I'm doing to myself. Right? It has very little to do with like. It has to do with the other with being as a god, but it doesn't have to do with, like, changing god. So the Jewish idea is like, the Hebrew idea is like, God is, and you don't change what is because it is. Right? And so prayer is this, like, changing myself to being alignment with what is. So it's like I'm doing something to myself. You know? That's a radical idea.

Right. As opposed to as opposed to what you're saying in the beginning. Yeah. So even even how I've approached, like, prayer meditation has shifted from how do I bring anxiety to, a a storefront god, little g god, that I'm asking to change my give me change back for my offering. Like, can you make change for this for me? You know? Can you turn my five my 20 into four fives? You know? Or if you're really kind, can you turn my 20 into five fives, god? Right. I think that's what we're asking for a lot. Yeah. Right. Yeah. As opposed to, like, use that that prayer and meditation work as, like, how do I need to change me, so that I'm in line with what is, with the I amness of life, because that's not changing. That hasn't changed ever. It's always been and always will be, as it was in the beginning, for now, more forever shall be. Like, this whole thing without end. You know? Mhmm. And and and so that that's like, I was doing this gratitude meditation. I got this new ritual up in after I'm fifteen weeks into this morning ritual that I've been doing. And That's a habit. It was fifteen week. It's almost. I don't know for me. I'm so stubborn. I don't think it's quite a habit yet. So hard headed. It's amazing. But the the morning ritual ends with prayer meditation. And I was doing this gratitude meditation, and I kept thinking, the woman leading the meditation recording, I kept thinking, can you just get on with this so I can get off my day? Yeah. Yeah. I'm grateful. I've been really grateful if you shut up. I actually said that out loud to myself. Like, can we just go and the thing are you you can't fast forward it. Like, so I'm either just gonna get up and walk away from it, or I'm gonna, like, endure endure it, or fight with I found a fight with with this, recording, a female. She was so sweet, like, on the video. The woman is so kind.

And Was it too kind? Was it was it too kind? Is that what you wanted to show us for, like, to make a promise? I was just ready to go on. Let's go. Let's get some stuff done. All the gratitude. Okay. Okay. Okay. We gotta go do it? Well, yeah, it's just like, I got some life to go live. Can we just, like this little ten minute gratitude thing is a waste of time, which is that's insane. Hey. Hey. I am I am there with you. I am with you. Yeah. It's the ten minute stop and slow down. Yeah. It's so it's like that time where I'm trying to fashion, making I'm powerless to that fight. Right? So I'm showing I'm showing up in a different way. I'm trying to I'm, even when I'm not trying to, I'm trying to. Like, the discipline of it, is like, how can I be changed in my power what I'm running into in that moment is my powerlessness over, like, god? Wherever I am, there I am, and I can't change me. You know? And it's the the beauty of the 12 steps, right, is that I am powerless over being me. And, do I believe that there's a God that will restore me to sanity? I I really want to believe. I I act like I believe. I You don't believe. I'm a well, I don't even know. I don't know. I I think I do. Today, I do.

To sanity. To sanity. Yeah. It's like like, you haven't yet. You know? So maybe. I don't know. I've been after this since 1998. I've been working on What your sanity? Yeah. I've been I've been I I became aware I became became baby aware of my insanity in 1998. Right? And I've been growing in, awareness, wisdom, love, generosity, grief. Like, my capacity to, not look for a cure in life has grown, though I still look for a cure in life. So I know I'm powerless over looking for a cure. Right? I know I'm powerless over other people's feelings. I know, but what I've learned is high achievers. I'm a high achiever, which you are too. You're more high achiever than I am, but, No. I don't think so.

You're as competitive as I am. I know that. That's true. That's true. Yeah. And so most people like us who want to do well or be well or manifest well or create well, we have a hard time being powerless because we we think we can make things better. And I think, like, the consciousness of God is pretty freaking too slow for my timetables. Like, that's my like, you know, it's all set in a gratitude way. Slow. So slow. Like, sometimes. Slow. Yeah. I mean, kids kids know. You know? Like, kids I feel like kids are in tune with that. Don't you think? I mean, they're they're in tune with how they're creative. Like, they are they haven't gotten into this world yet. They haven't been wrapped in Well, especially when they've got

parents like you and Todd, it's like they just trust that life's gonna work out. And they just kinda like, it's playtime, it's nap time, it's cranky time, it's pee time, it's whatever. I'm just doing it all. You know? Yeah. It's yeah. Yeah. You should talk about some slow work right there. Yeah. We gotta get through this. We can go do this. Come on, kids. Let's go. Yeah. Kinda like I've never been more aware of my need to get on with it. And then I'm missing it. And then I'm totally missing it. So there's no cure for life. There it is. Well, it's funny that you're saying it's so hard to surrender because one of one of my questions here is, has being weak always been lame? Has it has it always been lame like, from the beginning of time, have we has this always been a thing that we don't do as humans well?

Because since the beginning of time, humans have been trying to survive. Life's hard. Yes. And if you so both are true. Like, children who have care are just, like I mean, just kinda do life. It's beautiful. They do life on life's terms. Right? And then they we send them to school, and they learn to perform for their identity in the factory. Yeah. They are going to the factory. Yeah. Eight to five. Yeah. Go to factory and and okay. Great. Don't send them to school. Homeschool them. That really is up. Yeah. They're weird as, like, my kids. Yeah. Right? Well, they they don't They don't they don't get in line with the factory work. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like we, you know, we homeschool for middle school lawn for all of our kids, and there's some been some real benefits in that. They've also like, our two youngest got jobs this year, and they're so happy at the factory. Because it's like

Like, what is this? Do this. It's so clear. I work hard. I get chips. Right. It's the result. It's that's where I used to, like, think of this more I still do. I'm less this way. But, like, oh, it's this way or this way, or what's this answer? And, like, there's no answer. You know? Like, your your private school, your public school, your homeschool, your nature school, your you know? Or your like, the next job or the next marriage, or if I could just get my spouse to behave this way, or if I could just find a job where I did this. Like, yes. And, you said something interesting. Like, it's always been this hard. But until we find out how lame we are or until our effort to make life work ends up blaming us Mhmm. Wounding us, we're not ready to give up. Mhmm. You know? And so it's where you know, one of the things Chip Dodd taught me is, like, there's basically three kinds of people. There's people who have recognized that they're lame. You know, I'm limping. There's people who aren't ready to recognize that yet. And there's a there's a the gray area between those two, the gradient is like that's where everybody lives between those two places. You know? And then there's those who because of some cognitive malformation, don't get don't have to live in that continuum. And they they have another, like, they they have another way of living. And and there's something beautiful about that too. And so that both and like, yeah. It's like the lameness. Yes. We're lame. Humans are lame, or we are lamed by our own efforts to succeed and and accomplish over life, try to win at life, either lames us or makes us lame. You know?

Right. We're lame. We're lame either way. Yeah. We're either gonna do it to ourselves or or be it. What a that's such an old fashioned word, lame. Because you meant it like like, lame, like, not cool, and it it it's someone unable to walk without difficulty. It's like, it's Israel. It's Jacob walking with a limp. You know? And we talk about it as, like, a bad thing when we shoot horses for it. Because a horse isn't made it's like that horse is lame when you put it down. But a but a human a human's lameness is like our pathway to, like, spiritual significance and acceptance of ourselves and, like, equanimity of all all people. Like, we're all the same in our lameness. But we use it also as like, man, that's that that place is lame, and that restaurant's lame.

Judgment. Totally. Judgment. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to, like, we're all either blessed to be lame or are avoiding how lame we are, trying to hide our lameness. Right. We're very average like everybody else. Uh-huh. Yeah. Extraordinarily the same. Yeah. Uniquely, beautifully average. The paradox. That's the both and paradox. Yeah. It totally is. Yeah. Well, it's okay. Like, as we let's lay on the plane then. This is good. I'm inspired. I know. I know. I I was thinking that this was gonna be more hopeful than it sounded at the beginning, and it it surely did end up that way, which I'm glad. Oh, good. Well, you know, hope is at any moment, everything's about to get better. That's hope. Like, at any moment, it's just all gonna get better. You know? And, that's a beautiful way to live. So thank you. Thank you for hosting this. Stephen. Yes. You're welcome. Do more of these. You're gonna host more of these. That's right. I got a whole list of topics. Hopeful topics. We can Thanks for doing this, Kate.

Yeah. You're welcome. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this H. O. Podcast. This is Stephen James. If there's anything you need we can help you with, I want you to know we're here to help from counseling sessions virtually, in person to therapy intensives. We're glad to help you navigate life and help help you find the way that you're trying to go. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.