Till We Have Faces

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Live Fully podcast. Glad you're listening in. Really excited about today's episode. Another installment of Kate and Stephen dive deep into life podcast. I've got a good friend of mine, here with me today again, Kate Prevost. Hey, Kate. Hey, Stephen. Oh, so good. Golly. So good. So, again, this is where you interview me about the profound secrets of the universe. So I don't know everything. Everything under the sun. And Okay. Anything and everything. Alright. So I don't know where this is going.

We've not No. You don't. This at all. You have no idea. I'm a little nervous. So I'll give you the reins and the stage coach, then you drive her from here on out. I was thinking today we would talk about faces. Oh, tell me about that. Yes. How they can tell a story, tell our story, how we can use them to reveal our glory, our insides, or how we can use them to hide. Oh, you're so keep going. That's so good. Okay. That's really good. Yeah. Tell me more. Like, what's your question? Do you have a question, or we just gotta riff off faces? Yeah. I think I think I was just thinking let's let's tell people what we know about faces. Oh, well, there is no higher concentration of muscles in the human body than the human face. So of all the muscles in our body, I would say 80 muscles. Right? I did some research. Oh, is it 80?

Wow. 80 muscles. 80 muscles in a, like, a five particularly the size of your face, five by eight inch oval. Hopefully, it's oval. Yes. Yeah. If you don't have this if you have a square head, I'm sorry. If you have a pin head, I'm really sorry. Yeah. Round faces are cool. I think round faces are cool. Yeah. They're cute. They're cute. Yeah. I like a round face, but most faces are oval. I've just offended 8% of the population with square heads. Yeah. It wouldn't it wouldn't be the Live Fully podcast if you didn't start out with a defensive comment. That's great. Thanks. Wow. What I do in the world is I thin. My it's my yeah. So faces so, lots of muscles in the face. I think we need to talk about what for. The use of us good. I kinda start thinking about, like, what's a face you use for? Talk about that. That's good. And, oh, let's talk about how our faces change over time. Let's do it. God. Oh, that's really good. Alright. So 80 muscles. Really? Yeah. So as we're recording this, we're recording it via Zoom so I get to see your face. Correct. And Yeah. I've known you since you were nine? Like, nine? Eight or nine. Yeah. Eight or nine. And you're how old now?

I am shoot. Wow. I was a mom. 35. A mom of two 0.5 right there. She doesn't even know her name. Or age. She doesn't know her age. One of the most distinguishing features when I think of Kate Kate's face when I think of your face, I always think of Kate Hughes, and I have to correct myself to Kate Prevost. Yeah. Is Kate I know you most of your life, you were Kate Hughes. And then in recent years, you've become Kate Prevost, your maiden name. When I think of your face, there are three features that stand out to me the most. K? Your dimples. It's so scary when someone talks about your face too. Yeah. What's scary about it? It's like, oh, he's about to see me. Like, he's about to name something so vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah. About, like, this is it. This is me, my face.

Yeah. Your dimples Mhmm. Which is scary. It's very intimate to name that even audio wise. Like, it's a like, your eyes and your lips. Those are three things that have always been true about Kate Prevost's face. Whether she was little, whether or whether she's middle aged now or almost middle aged. Like, your dimples, are, like, very noticeable when you smile, and they they counteract this malady that you have call I don't know. A lot of people don't know what this is, but you and I know. RBF? I was hoping we would talk about RBF today. This is perfect. Yeah. So you you've been, either socially or genetically cursed with a disease called resting bitch face. It's true. It's it's in my genes. Yeah. You and you

personally, for me, you know how to strike fear in the soul of a man with the look of contempt. And, and and so it's it's very powerful. Women tend women a woman's face does have while a woman tends to genetically lack physical strength over her male counterparts, her face has the power to lift the heart of a man or, scourge the soul of a man. Right? So so much power there. Your dimples your dimples are so much more powerful than your resting bitch face. And I you can't say bitch anymore, but I didn't make that diagnosis up. It's on the Internet. Thank god. Yeah. But you have these glorious dimples that invite warmth, invite playfulness, and have the mark of youthfulness, and you'll have them forever.

Right? And you They're getting starting to get wrinkles right there. Yeah. Which is I think it's great. Right? You smiled so much that your face will be permanently scarred with the There's a mark. Yeah. There's a mark. You've been marked by by by joy. Right? Your eyes, are this almond shape, and they're they're brown. Right? They're bringing a brown eyes. Right? I think they're brown. They're blue. They're blue. Blue. Okay. Sorry. I don't know the color of your eyes. It's okay. Your eyes have they're always this almond shape. And when you smile, your eyes get more narrow. Like and they're and it's like you're hot like, hold try to hold I've always thought when you're a little girl, you're like, this kid's tried to hold back all this joy inside herself as I thought I had.

Oh, that's so cute. My daughter has that. You would get this as a girl, you'd get this, like, angry, like, I would've hurt somebody, like, look on your face. It was so awesome. It was so passionate. And then when you would laugh, it would be so you had these two as a kid, you had these two faces. This mischievous laugh and then this this what you're doing now where you're, like, you're truly overcome with joy and your eyes get small and your dimples get big. It's great. And then your lips are you've had these full lips your whole life. Right? Yes. And full lips are mean lots of things in the world. Yeah. You know? But women spend a lot of time accentuating the fullness of their lips, right, to draw attention and communicate, fertility and and vitality because full lips and red red cheeks and red lips means a person's healthy.

Right? That that Yeah. You know? So we talk about makeup in a second. I do all that. I say all that and put you on the spot because you put me on the spot, is that there's something very unique beside of your face. Mhmm. You know? That is, that is Kate. Right? That it speaks to your heart, your soul, your your story in a way that nothing else about your body does. And these muscles at our face that have been, like, put there, and that are so finely tuned to express who we are in the world unlike any other part of our body. And we can't stop doing it unless we move to harm ourself and freeze our face, you know. And there's a if if people who are listening, if none of you've ever seen the still face video, go to YouTube and type in still face mother child, and you'll see for a moment the trauma of what a face without expression does to another person. Right? That that, one of the worst things that a person can do is not express, and they have to practice not expressing. That's not something humans do naturally. Right? Yeah. They have to work at it. And so the human face is so intimate. It's so because it's so connected to our story, to our soul, to our to who we are as a person, and it's our, like, expression to the world. And even when we're not trying to express ourselves, we're telling our story. You know? Yeah. And so it's it's a wonderful tool we've been given. And so we started thinking about, like, how we as humans like, what do we do with our face? God, it's it's great. So 80 muscles, it tells our story. It also is used and I hinted as as a way for us to control other people. Right? And especially with the threats of contempt and the threats of, like, the snarl of hatred that we sometimes have or discussed in relationship. We know through a lot of research of John Gottman that contempt is the number one predictor of, divorce inside of a marriage. Right? That that the more contempt you have in a marriage, the more likely you you are to be a divorce. We know also through psychological research that the human face is the number one expressor of contempt. You know? And that humans experience contempt at a magnitude of 10 overjoy.

They remember it more in their brain? Is that what you're saying? Experience it more deeply. So Yeah. Like like, one expression of contempt is 10 times more powerful than one expression of joy. Right? Yes. And the human the human heart equates the face of contempt as the threat of death. Because it's it is death. I hate you. I'm disgusted with you. It is the threat of abandonment. And it's like and the it's like it feels like the threat of death to me. So when a parent or a a spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend or boss, anybody in a power relationship uses the face of contempt to control another. Like, you're you're dealing in deep waters. You're you're you're messing with the heart of a human being in a way that is, if not trauma, borders on trauma and manipulation.

Right? Yeah. In your own brain and heart. Yeah. How what do you mean? Well, I just read this really fascinating quote when I was looking at face stuff talking about the '80 muscles fire when you smile. 80 muscles you have to use to smile, and it sends chemicals to your brain that actually, like, show your brain that it's it's joy. So when I'm smiling, I make myself happy? Very little research was done. This was just a quote. But I was just thinking, like, if you're using muscles to restrict, or kill something in your face to send contempt. Let's let's do a let's do an exercise then right now. So everyone that's listening to the podcast, smile real big. Like, just, like, hear my voice and hear the happiness in my voice and just smile.

Like, just feel it. Smile. Get it. Get on it. Smile. On it. Smile, y'all. How how could you not that's one of the best part of the Live Fully podcast is the smile. You like, we're laughing most of the time. I think people laugh when they listen to us. So register in your body what you feel. Like, that feels good. It does. Okay? Now as you're sitting there driving your car or drinking a cup of tea or whatever you're doing, like, make make them. I hate you face. That's not good, Kate. Do it. Really do it. I've seen you do it. I can't look at you when I do it. I've been on the receiving end of, like, god. You. Uh-huh. You again. Just doing that crap again.

And I could feel my body when I do that. I could feel my heart sink. Literally, I could feel my heart sink. Yeah. I could feel dopamine go down, like, lower, despair. So my shoulders wanna curl like, I could feel my body just It's like a droop. Yeah. Yeah. My body wants to droop. I wanna, like so then that's something. That's how powerful the face is. So connected to our our brain, so connected to our soul and our heart that it literally changes our neurochemistry, kinda like hormones. Yeah. Man, those are powerful too. Hormones are powerful too. Right? So Yeah. So what what more research did you do? Like, that's great. Yeah. I was that that was really kind of enlightening to me that the what we do with our face can actually affect our brain.

Yeah. Like, it works one way, and then it it helps our express our brain and our heart, our face does. But it also works the other way that if I've grown up in a in a system, family, or a culture that, doesn't honor the face or if me expressing my joy cost me something. Where I was in a in a place where joy wasn't welcome. It is so serious or so depressed or so scary. There wasn't room for me. I can I can, I have to train myself to keep a still face, to keep my stay my face frozen? And in doing so, I end up, like you said, traumatizing my own brain. Yes. I have to I'm disconnecting my brain from my body Disassociate. Own experience and dissociate. So there's a not only is there a psychological dissociation that occurs often as a self protective mechanism in trauma, There's also physiological dissociation. And you and I both as, like, sexual trauma experts, we know that sometimes that affects genitalia, that people can have a desensitization in their own genitalia because of trauma. Right. But there's another thing that happens that there's a there's a disconnection in the human face, and there's a desensitization of the human face because of trauma. And not just sexual trauma, emotional trauma, physical trauma, spiritual trauma. Like, I'm I've learned me not me. I'd actually not learned this. I could learn to be more less obvious with my face. No filter at times with my face. So I'm learning that a little bit more of filters. But but, like, we've learned to to turn our face off in order to protect the heart some people have. And as that was a self protective mechanism early in life, but it ends up being a self harming mechanism later in life. That we have to harm ourselves in order to have our face not expressed.

Especially can't attach. That's like joy. We can't attach. Yeah. Can't attach. People can't attach to us. We're not a face looking for connection. So the face is the is the primary way humans attack to each other and voice. Face and voice. Right? But the the face is the first thing. You know? And then voice and tone become the second thing. You know? And then so we, some of the research around body language that 80 to 90% of all communication is not the words we use. It's face and tone. You know? And so you take face out of the equation, you're just left with tone. And I think it's really confusing because now your tone is saying, I like I like you. Okay? You know? If my face is saying, I I'm in contempt and my voice is saying words are saying one thing, my voice is saying another, as a receiver, that's, like, super confusing. Yeah. You know? And so when I ask Heather a question like, hey. Do you wanna go out to dinner? She's like, sure. We can. It's like, never mind. We don't. That's that's a no. That's a no.

Question. Yeah. And she just said, sure we can. Sure we can. Yeah. That's it's like you know? And so, think about I think a practice for us that we could do is, like, what for me to ask myself, what does my face say? Mhmm. Does my face align with what I really wanna say? You know? And how do I practice vulnerability through the through being open with my face and open with my heart? And, but really joy. Because joy is the most vulnerable thing we can offer ourselves and the world is to experience joy. I think that surprises a lot of people because there's, happy, Instagram world that I think that gets kinda twisted. I wonder if we've heard an Instagram feed of, like, contempt contempt faces. Like, humans of New York, there's, like, all these stories about people. We could say, like, humans of contempt, and we could just have pictures of people's contempt.

Well, it's a culture. Like, the the culture that we hide behind. Like, the South is smiley and nice, and the North is, like, no bullshit. Don't mess with me. Oh, it's a hardness. Hard. Yeah. It's it's the face is kinda kinda dopey. Yeah. The dopey face. Know how to do that. Yeah. A lot of plastic surgery base. Yeah. So talk about was that so even, like, whether you're for, against, or neutral about plastic surgery, what are the side effects to plastics? So let's talk about wrinkles now. Let's start with the side because you're getting wrinkles around your your, pits in your face, your dimples. See what you call them face pits? Face pints. Thank god they're not crushed pits. Well, didn't Kate Prevost have the best face pits? Says pimples. Pimples are a better word. They're Face pits, that's terrible.

This is terrible. But, like, when you one of the side effects of plastic surgery, especially, like, even medical stuff like Botox, but but a lot of, like, even surgical stuff, is it takes away the ability of the face to express itself. The face becomes almost frozen in the attempt to seek youth. We sometimes end up with, like, the a challenge around, like, we can't express ourselves. I mean, the people look scary. Like, they because their face is so frozen. It's it's so scary. Right. It's hard to attach. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, wow. This person's face is stretched so much. Their mouth is stretched so weird, and their eyes are pulled back so open. Like, I don't know how to make sense of their of their face because they've they've pursued their denial of age has and I'm all for a little bit of work. Like, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get a little bit of work done at some point. Yeah. Peter? Just a little love. We we Just a little love. Little laugh, little talk, little, but some people, like any addiction, go, oh, like, we there's cosmetic addiction. Yeah. And cosmetic surgical addiction. And there's a place where people you look at the extremes and people get so stretched and pulled that they don't even look human anymore. Mhmm. And it's really sad, Especially, you just look at, like, people that were once seen as beautiful. Mhmm. You know? And then, like, are almost extremely deformed in their pursuit of beauty. Right? And they suddenly deform the human face because the human face

carries so much beauty in it and Yeah. So much color. Their story. They lose their story with, changing their noses or that's that's a story that tells where they came from. And, I'm gonna I'm gonna look at my face right now and see, like, what story does my face tell? Because I'm getting some wrinkles. You know? Like, I've got my I've got some scars. Well, you're right. I've got a cancer cancer scar. Straight line straight line across your yeah. That's a sign of brilliance. It's called it's called a forehead. Nope. There's a line right across. It goes all the way across. It stays connected. That's just that's a line of brilliance. Oh, is this that Todd Prevost, like, face reading stuff? It is. Yeah. Okay.

So yeah. He so he's even he's taught me about there's, like, the persuasive lip, and there's the sharpened chin, and there's certain face markers that genetically we intuitive as certain meaning. Yeah. I mean, you're you're hiding a little bit behind your beard. Yeah. I'm hiding fatness is what I'm hiding. I'm hiding the fact that I've gained a lot of weight. Yeah. So there that's part of your story. I'm trying to see. I don't know if you guys you can look at the wiggles beside my besides my eyes. Like, I have smiled a lot. Lots of laughter and skin. Of laugh lines. Resilient. My face says resilience. That's good. It does. It does. I like my I like my freckles or my face spots. Yeah. You have face pets. I have face spots. I'm a spotted face. But I love freckles. I think freckles are awesome.

Yeah. I I'll be curious what those cut what stories they tell. Seems like fun. These people are fun. Freckles. Yeah. Yeah. I think freckle people are fun. You can't hide freckles. That's one thing you can't hide unless you put makeup on. That We we haven't talked about makeup yet. Let's talk about that in a second. I would wonder, if people are listening, what is your favorite part of your face? What's the part like, little kids will, like and teenagers will look in the mirror. Like, little kids will look at the mirror with curiosity, and they'll, like, touch their face, and they'll look, and they'll talk to themselves. And it's so cute. And then developmentally, something hits, like, adolescence or a middle school, early high school, they'll just stare in the mirror. That that teenager can't pass a mirror without stopping and admiring themselves and primping and looking. Making sure they look okay. Yeah. Making sure they look okay and make it you know, a lot of insecurity and energy that goes into, like, how does the world see me, and does the world see me the way they wanna see me, and which is developmentally normal for a teenager to feel that way. It's developmentally immature for an adult to feel that way. One of the cool things Heather did last year in honor of her, fiftieth rotation around the sun is she did, like, these 50, different practices. One of them for part of the year was to not look in the mirror for three days. That was so cool. Like and she's not a big mirror person. Like, she's not a, like she's pretty natural and straightforward with how she presents herself and who she is. And, one of the things I really like about her. I still look at her and, like, man, she's cute. And she's just so pure. So pure. But she went three days without looking in the mirror and, like, to hear her talk about, like, how she had to know herself without looking at her own face. You know? And it got it when that conversation got me thinking of how often do I look in the mirror just to see myself as opposed to look in the mirror to criticize myself. Most most of the my looks in the mirror are not looks of appreciation or wonder. Right? They're looks of, oh, that like, I'm doing some different stuff with my hair these days, and I'm trying to grow it out. And it's in a really awkward stage right now. And so it's like like it's like I I spent the morning trying to comb my hair, which ended up being a hat day because I just I could only look upon my face with the criticism of my hair is not doing what I want it to do. Mhmm. You know? And I'm asking my I'm asking my mirror, which is not even a fair representation of my face. It's backwards. So it's inaccurate.

It is. Right? But I'm looking at my face with criticism. And so I would wonder And there's probably a story there of your hair. Like, we all stories about my hair. All had stuff with stories that we carry that someone has said about our face or our hair Yeah. That we carry with us. Will they like it or don't like it? Oh, you like my hair? Well, let me you like it like this, or you like it like that? Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I would wonder for all of us, like, you need to know what are the parts of your face that you adore, and how can you look in the mirror with intention to appreciate the way your face has been marked with beauty and awe. You know? If you're a man with beauty and awe. You know? I'm not speaking in gender, like, sexual categories. I'm speaking in, like, creation categories of there's something like, the world is so tragic and so, like, unequivocally disappointing. Like, life is so full of loss, and yet beauty and love still win, and they still win. You know? And I think the human face is a place where, like, we need to practice love and practice reflecting love to another through our face, and reflect reflecting joy and warmth and attachment and connection and a smile. Like, drive down the road and smile at somebody, not flirt with them, not pulling up the stoplight and be flirting. I know you've done that. I know you've done that. Like, I could totally see you doing that. But, like, looking across and smiling at somebody from, like, a, hey. Like, I'm glad you're human too kind of look. You know? And your face could say so much to strangers and so much to people you love, but also can say so much to yourself. Like, what is what of your face do you love? What are your face do you adore adore? You know? How have your how has your face been marked through your story to reveal some of the wonder of God and the beauty of creation? And everybody's face does that. Yeah. Everybody's face does that. Love how doc or or Dan Allender talks about

everyone's face revealing somewhat of the unique character of God. Love thinking about our faces like that. Like, oh, when I encounter Stephen's face, I experiencing this part of God. And when I experience Todd's face, I experience this part of God. Mhmm. And when you experience your own face, which you can't fully, you'll experience another part of God. Yeah. I can't I yeah. It's really hard to experience. There's a part of the character of the God that's always hid to you hidden to you and hidden to me because we can't see our own faces. Yeah. And that mystery is so freaking cool. It is. It's I don't know what it's like to be on the other side of me. I mean, you can tell me about it, which I find fascinating. But, yeah, I can never truly experience that.

Makeup. You need to I I've not worn makeup. Well, okay. I have worn makeup. I've I have been known to borrow, especially my younger years, borrow a little bit of Heather concealer if I had a pimple just to make sure that the giant pimple wasn't sticking off my nose the way I but I'm not I'm not worn a lot of yeah. It's a good product. I've not worn a lot of, lipstick, blush, eyeliner, rouge, toner. Rouge? Rouge. That's for the that's for the older crowd out there. We have some Yeah. Octogenarians listening to the born in 1920. If you're still out there, this is for you. You're 103. You got the rouge shot. Or if you grew up in the South and your grandmother taught you how to do makeup, you're probably wearing the Rouge. Grammarie. But, tell I need you to tell what do you think makeup's about? Because I'm not gonna represent the patriarchy right now. I think you need to tell me what makeup's about.

man. So much comes up when when, you say makeup for me. I can I can speak for myself personally? I don't know. I don't know how other people use it, but I never really was taught how to use makeup. I was never really play I never really played with it. Grew up with two older brothers. So I really felt unskilled in the makeup area. I would put, like, bright blue sparkles up here right on my eyes. Yeah. I I I couldn't figure it out how it's it's supposed to I think what makeup is for is to, make things that are already beautiful on your face sound stand out a little bit more. But, that's why I would use it. But some people use it maybe to scare people off.

Self expression? Like a goth person? Like, I'm gonna express myself? Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's, canvas. Canvas? Yep. At the The mask. To express themselves. I'm more of, like, wanting to use more natural things to bring out maybe things of of my face that I like. Clinique girl. Clinique counter girl. Yeah. Yeah. We think about the different makeup brands in the department stores. Like, they they're all geared towards a different personality type, but they're all inviting the same practice of Maybe it's Maybelline. Maybe it's Maybelline. Yeah. That's kinda like a fun girl. Yeah. Yeah. Maybelline's a fun girl. Yeah. Max Factor? Yeah. Max is is probably the more creative of us. Okay. Yeah. I I can't tell you. I don't I I don't have much to say about that. But, yeah, I I definitely think, I've used it as a woman to, maybe look more beautiful, try to look more of something. So the the scientific research,

this isn't my opinion. So this is this research, would say that, society so social norms, have led women to in different cultures to mark their face in a way that shows them being sexually fertile. Yeah. And so Yeah. Hide wrinkles. So sexual fertility is, like, deep genetic attraction, you know, like, mammalian attraction. And so lack of and that's usually youth. You know? So lack of wrinkles, red lips, red cheeks, big eyes are these little expressions. Yeah. Make, yeah, make your eyes bigger. Little little babies have those kinda eyelashes. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's to make a person look youthful But accentuating the parts that say I'm fertile. Youthful and fertile. Mhmm. So that's what it's about scientifically. But it's so much more than that from a artistic, cultural, self assuring thing. I don't know many women who don't wear some degree of makeup.

Me neither. I know a few men that wear a little bit of makeup. And it's it's like, I got my friend's wearing some makeup. Well, alright. That's fine. And that's more about social social or social society than it is about anything else. But, but it's still a way to accentuate the face and draw attention to the certain parts of the face because I don't want you to see other parts of my face. I want to I want you I want to I want to perceive that you're perceiving me a certain way. I love what you said a a minute ago around that. You, you said, I don't know. I can't see the other side of me. Like, you can't even see the inside of you. Like, you can't see your face or your insides.

I'm clueless. I can't either. No one can. Right? So you're you're not uniquely clueless. You're you're generally clueless. Yeah. We are truly clueless about how we are perceived, but we try to control it, which is wild. Then we I mean, we learned really early that our face has power. You know? I have kids, and they switched smile learned to smile at me real quick. It's like, oh, they smile. I smile back. It's one of the first skills a child learns is to smile. Before they could speak, they smile. That's what I was gonna ask you. I know we're running out of time, but that was one of the questions I had was when when do we usually learn how to adjust our face and morph it?

I'm gonna Google when's a baby learn to smile. Second month. Usually, by the end of the second month. That's a developmental model. You're smiling, for the parent? Yeah. You're you're smiling for attachment and love. Because the person smiles back, and there's a reciprocity. The only way to communicate. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, oh, you do you're smiling at me. I'll smile at you, and you smile back. There's this it's like, I like you. You like me. I like you. You like me. I like me. You like me. I like you. You you like you. And a parent smiles at a child partly because I like me. Look what I made. Yeah. I'm so delighted in you. I'm so proud of myself. I'm so proud of you. Like, oh, and the baby goes, oh, smile back. And now we're smiling back and forth, and it's just this wonderful

proud of themselves. Yeah. They're proud of me. They're smiling at me. And it be it's it was this wonderful, reciprocity that happens between a parent and child smiling and cooing and goo goo goo goo goo all the noises we make that are so weird family where there's peekaboo being played. Mhmm. You know? I'm gonna go home tonight and play peekaboo with my 17 year old sons and see what happens. I think you're gonna get punched, Stephen. I think I'm gonna get laughed at, which be fine. Anything from getting any kind of of reaction from your teenage child is wonderful, because they developmentally don't want anything to do with mom and dad. They're in their own world, which is great. They're supposed to be. I'm so happy for them and so sad. Proud of yourselves. Yeah. You're proud of these groups. If I was doing it over, I'd make them more codependent, though. That's what I would do. Just so feel better, for sure. Make me feel better. Yeah. More involved. Half kidding. Kidding, not kidding. So as we're winding up the podcast

I'm winding up. This random podcast of pace. I think I think we I think what's important for me is, like, to think, what is my face saying, and is it inviting delight? And am I using my face in the world to bring hope and mercy and compassion, or am I using it to bring contempt and fear and dread? Right? So my face is a tool of truth. It's a tool of hope. It's a tool of joy. And and and who do I let see my face? Mhmm. And who do I let really see my true face, my real face? And do I live life without a mask? Right? And there's this great organization in The UK that's, I've reached out to them recently about how we can connect, but it's called men without masks. And these men go away on retreats and do all these cool men work together. But it's about not having a mask. You know? And so even so not just metaphor like, realistically, like, are you wearing a mask? But metaphorically, what's the mask that you're wearing, and what would it look like for your face to express, like, who you really are in the world, and how much more free would you feel? And the science you share with us today is how much more would your brain feel alive if you were actually moving to joy the world to joy?

Yeah. You could heal your brain. Yeah. Yeah. Heal your brain through smiling. Because when you smile moving your face. When you smile, the whole world smiles with you. That's I don't know. I need to oh, god. When you laugh when you laugh, the whole world laugh with you. What are the lyrics of that song? Man, I know a song. It's just a little tiny bit off tune. Yeah. It I know it. I know what you're saying. Bruno Mart? No. When you smile lyrics. That's that's not the word. It's a old song. Yeah. It's old. It's not Bruno. The whole well, it would not be a Live Fully pod podcast if I didn't, not have the answer for something. That's that's obvious. I wanna say too, what I'm coming away with is how important it is to be seen. There I was, listening to this thing in another country. I think it's Sweden. They their way of saying hello, like, if they were to see someone in a grocery store is, I see you. And the other person goes, their response I see you. And the greeting is, oh, well, then I am here. And I think

Hold on. They say, I see you, and you say, well, then I'm here. Yes. That's the greeting. Exist unless you see me. Oh, that's so cool. It's How do you say that in Swedish? I I would love to know how to say that. Again, very little research has been done on this, but it touched me because of just the importance of of looking at people on the face and having FaceTime with people actually makes your existence more real. How powerful that is to be seen. How powerful? In the grocery store. You know who this hold on. That's really good. While you're saying that, though, I was looking up this. Yeah. I way back, Bruno. That's that's, the Satchmo. That's Louis Armstrong. Louis. Oh, Louis. Oh, when you're smiling, the whole world smiles with you,

baby. That's it. That's it. Laughing. Oh, when you're laughing, the sun comes shining through. But when you're crying, you bring on the rain. So stop your sighing, baby. Be happy again when you're laughing, when you're smiling. Oh, I love that soul. Well, you got a lot of soul on you. I got some soul. Somewhere along the line, there's some soul. Irish blood. What is in there? Irish got a lot of soul. They're an inbred people, but they got a lot of soul. Yeah. Irish jig. Irish jig. A lot of laughing, a lot of fighting, a lot of dancing. They are passionate. Yep. Yeah. All that darkness, you've gotta it's dark a lot in Ireland, so you gotta learn how to laugh. I hope that singing brought some joy to someone's face, and they caught themselves smiling. And they'll carry that with them the rest of the day. Mhmm. Hey, Max.

Thanks, Stephen. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.