The Story We Tell Ourselves

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com. Hey, Kate. Hey, Stephen. This is Stephen James. I'm here with Kate Prevost. It's the, Live Fully podcast from Sage Hill. This is continuing the series where Kate interviews me about things and we talk about them series. And today, we're stepping into it, and, we've had some rapport building, but I don't know what she's gonna talk about today. So this is we're all gonna be surprised here in the next thirty seconds. So, Kate, what are you bringing to the table today?

I think I'm yeah. I'm surprised every week about where we go, so far. Me too. This week, I wanted to talk with you about narratives, how our narratives inform how we live in the world, and then also how we may project them, how our narratives can be helpful, and how they can get in the way. I I think I know what you mean because we're both licensed therapist. Right. And then I and I'm gonna need you to, like I'm gonna need you to explain all that. So what I heard you say in, like, human speak was sometimes I make up stories about things, and sometimes they're right. And sometimes I make up stories and then bend the world to my will so the story fits my story so that I can be right.

Ladder is projection. So, that's yeah. That's I love this topic because Right. In I was actually supervising, a couple of young therapists today, and we were talking about this in a in a way. So we were talking earlier today about, like, why people ask people questions like, where'd you go to college, or what do you do for a living, or, you know, where do you go to church, or what school do your kids go to, or, like, all these questions, right, that actually tell you nothing about a person except geography and, like, something. But when they tell us that, we make up stories that make us feel safer so that we can fit them into our view of how people work. Right? Mhmm. And everybody how they tell us that. Yeah. Because we don't ask people, how much money do you make? Who'd you vote for in the last election? How often do you have sex? Is it is it we don't ask the questions that require feelings. Right? We, yeah, we don't ask questions that would reveal too much of a person because that would be weird.

Yeah. Socially, not okay. So when we when we meet people, we are trying to get them to tell us their story in a way so we can answer specifically two questions. One is, are you like me? Like, and am I safe? Mhmm. So so humans have deep in us a sense of tribalism where we want to be around people like us because people that aren't like us make us we get scared because we have to work hard to understand them. So are we the same gender, right, the same sex? Are we the same color? Are we the same age? Are we the same socioeconomic status? Are we the same political stature? Are we the same belief system? Like, we tend to herd ourselves with people who are like us so that we can feel safe in the herd. Right? The problem with that is that the things that make people the most similar aren't where they work, what they believe, where they go to school, how much money they make or not, how they voted or didn't. Like, that's not what makes people similar. What makes people similar is that that we are emotional spiritual creatures made for relationship. Like, that across culture and across time, people are, you know, 99.9% the same and that we're made for relationship. Right? How we live that out, though, is always in the context of community. Relationships are always in community, and communities are always in the construct of stories. So communities have stories. Families have stories that we tell that make families families. Communities have stories that we tell that make communities communities. Cultures have stories that we tell that make cultures cultures. Right? And so a better question would be not do I tell myself a story, but what's the story I'm telling myself? Mhmm. And how does that story help me know myself in the world, and how does that story keep me from actually being known in the world and keep me from knowing the world? Yeah. Right? That's a pretty philosophical thing. I just stepped off video for a second to plug my computer back in. So we story narrative is how all human beings make meaning of everything. We put everything in the context of story. And we have to make meaning. And we have to make meaning. Humans can't not make meaning. We're really bad at not making up what something means. And most of the time, we're not right, but it still makes us feel better.

Yeah. Because we don't wanna ask. Yeah. Because there's not there's not pat answers. Right? So when I make up stories about a person or about a situation or about how something works, it it helps me come up with the answers so I don't have to feel anxious or afraid or alone, or ashamed about what I don't know or about what can't be figured out. Because most of the answers are like, who it's not one thing. It's like 700. Complex. Yeah. Very complex. Life is very complex. People are very complex, very nuanced, you know, and multifaceted and mysterious. And stories help us take the mystery out of things in lots of ways. Mhmm. Help things be knowable. And they're entertaining, and they, like right? So Yeah. Depending on the brain whose brain you're in, I'm sure they are. Yeah. So one of the stories I carry

is it's all up to me. Mhmm. Up to me. That's not that is sometimes a helpful story because I can I can get stuff done? I'm dependable. I'm reliable. I'll find a way. I'm resourceful. You know? That doesn't always work well in a marriage. Like, it's just up to me because I'm the last person in our marriage that knows I need help. Like, I don't I don't, like, I don't even know how to ask for Heather's help sometimes because I'm so resourceful, you know, resilient. We haven't even thought to do that yet. Yeah. My thinking is like, who can help me with this? That's not my thing. My thinking is, how can I get this done? Right? Yeah. It's up to me. That's the story I tell myself. There's lots of reasons I tell myself that story. There's not one reason I tell myself that story. You know? That's not a 100% true story. Right. There's some truth in it, but it's not the whole story.

Yeah. And we create our life around our story too. I mean, like, you've created your life around your gifting and that projection. So I think yeah. You got me thinking a lot. I I won't say everything I just thought about my life. But when I think when I project that, that's a good idea. Boundaries. Good idea. Boundaries are a helpful thing. And so so I think it's important for us to think about what are the stories we tell ourselves. That's a version of the story I tell myself. I was I just wanna walk with a friend. We were talking. There's a story she tells herself that, like, her, God is a blankety blank, and he's out to get me. Like, that is that is her version of God is enjoys the suffering of people. And she really believes that. It's like, wow. That's not that's that's and I asked her, how does that how does that narrative help you? You know? Because there's a way it does. And so we Oh, yes. That's what we talked about. Right? And I didn't talk. I said, though there there are two other narratives that are equally helpful and equally troubling. Right? And one is, God is everything is working together for my good. Yeah. That the universe is conspiring in my favor. Mhmm. Right? That's another narrative. Right? I've said it two different ways. I've said it using, cultural Christian parlance, and I've said it using, like, a universal, like, spirituality, language. But they're saying the same thing. Like, everything is firing for my good. University is firing for my good, and all things work together for those who love God, right, according to his purpose in Christ Jesus. Like, there's the whole thing around, but it's all working out. Right? The third so one narrative is that we tell ourselves is, like, life sucks, and it's out to get me. Mhmm. All up to me.

Probably that's probably more of a a martyr victim. Performer? Yeah. Lost child, abandoned person? Yeah. Orphan. The other is, God's gonna take care of me. He's all gonna work out in the end. That can be helpful. It also can be a lie. And then the third the third narrative is there is no God. There is no obvious meaning. There is no real meaning. You get to you get to write the story you get to write, and other people will write theirs. And then when you're dead, it's over. And that's that's troubling and helpful. How does that work for I guess, you'd have to shut some stuff down, but how does that work for our humanity to believe that there is no meaning when we were made to make meaning? Well, you you What does that because so now we're getting into, like, theology and philosophy, which Okay. We're going to theology and philosophy about story. So you but you said that we were made to for meaning.

Oh, but those people believe that. But they Yeah. Yeah. Those people don't. They're not. They're made they're they're made because mammals make things. See, I can't even get out of my own narrative enough to, like, see them. Yeah. Yeah. Now the freedom that comes in that is the freedom to make life what I wanted to make it. The freedom to, to cultivate meaning. The freedom to cultivate experience. The freedom to, not live with the anxiety about, like, what happens after you die because you just die. Right? It's over. You know? There's a lot of freedom in that story. There's a lot of freedom in in a in a narrative. I use the word story. People equate it with not true. So there's a lot of freedom in that in that narrative. There's a lot of freedom in the narrative of of, the that God is conspiring for my good. All things are working together. They're gonna work out. If I just wait a little bit longer, they're gonna work out. Just bad today. My my child's got cancer and my spouse just left me and I'm bankrupt. But if I just hang on, after I die, it will be better. No matter how bad it gets now, it will be better after I die. Right? So that that is the a hopeful narrative telling.

Oh, it is. Okay. Yeah. Because no matter how bad it gets, it's gonna be good one day. Once I die, it'll be good. Okay. Maybe I don't have that. I don't know. I thought I would have that, but I don't know if that's me. Okay. Okay. And then and then there's the third narrative that that undermines underlies things and undermines things is that it's all a shit show, and and God is not every man for themselves. That's that's an atheistic view. But that, there is a God that is actually like a Roman God, a Greek God that's out for their own self interest and is just gonna mess with me because they're bored today. Mhmm. And they wanna move me around on a chessboard and just see where tatered. Yeah. Yeah. And so we all have a little bit of these stories. Right? But what Totally. The the narrative that we are holding really determines about how we live our life. Now psychologically, believing that all whether you are a person of faith or not a person of faith, believing that things are gonna work out actually makes your life better. Like, living in that story actually makes you happier. Yes. Your brain map probably looks better. Oh, your brain map looks better. You're less anxious. You have protective things around you like hope. You're more optimistic. You're you're more, open to relationship. You're more adaptable. Like, so Resilient.

Yeah. It's not gonna get you down. Yeah. So that's actually, like, a good mindset. You know? It's a good story to tell yourself. It's a good narrative to embrace. How how come so many of us don't do that, I wonder? Because I think that doesn't always measure up to the truth of life. Life is really, really, really hard, really hard. And we wanna come up with a story that makes life make sense. And so we will assign blame to the other. Right? It's the that person's fault or that thing's fault that life is really hard, or it's my fault that life is really hard. Like, we'll try to tell the story to to make up for life being really hard. So it's hard to be optimistic and positive and hopeful when you look around and awful things happen. I was watching the Super Bowl. We're recording this the day after the Super Bowl. Right? And it was the Eagles versus the Chiefs. And one of the things that, to me, that was most interesting the most interesting thing to me about that game was that there was a brother on each team. And I wanted to watch the game to see how they interacted at the end. And it was, the winning brother went to the losing brother, and they talked. And the camera was shot from far off. There wasn't a mic on this. So you were left to make up a story. Yeah. Right? So I am projecting or imposing my a story on this

moment. Gosh. That is what I do with sports. That's that is that is how I do watch sports games. That's the only reason people watch sports games. Wow. Yeah. Because you're not actually playing in the game, and you don't work for the organization that's having the game. So as a fan, you're just projecting your hopes and dreams on other people so you can develop a bigger story. It's called Transcendental. Yeah. So I'm watching these these brothers, and their first interaction, the losing you couldn't see the face of the winning brother. It was behind the camera was behind him. And to see the face of the losing brother, clearly, the winning brother said something to the losing brother to make him smile. And they kinda laughed, and they had a moment. And then the losing brother realized he just lost the Super Bowl, and his face went like, ugh. Because whatever connected these guys, they were living a really different story in the moment. Yeah. They're brothers. Yeah. Yeah. They're brothers in a different story. Like, you're a winner. I lost. And as a professional sport, you're a professional athlete. Your whole life is geared around winning that thing. You know? And there's only a handful of winners every year, and everybody else is a loser. Most people are. Yeah. But and the worst loser to be is second place. Yeah. It hurts the most. Just third place, you're like, man, I'm I was on the podium. I made the podium. Just glad to be here. I got a bronze medal. Isn't that great?

Like, my I just slipped slipped through in the grads. My high school soccer team or my, club team, we won the, my junior year, we won the Junior Olympics bronze medal. Right? I feel great about winning that bronze medal. That was awesome. That's incredible. Yeah. I would it would have really hurt if we'd gotten the silver medal. I was a silver medalist. Yeah. You're just too you taste it. You're just too close. Yeah. So close. Especially that game last night. Oh. Yeah. Now all the Eagles fans are going, it was a bad call. That's what they're saying that. They're saying that right now. Yeah. And you and I, I guess, I don't know if you're an Eagles fan. I didn't care. So it's like I didn't care, but I also thought it was a bad call. But, you know, that might have been my narrative. Bad call too. So, you know, caught the ball and dropped it. They gave the ball back to that person. So I thought that was a bad call too. We all have a different narrative of the game too. Yes. Yeah. It's based on our feelings and our perspective. Right? No one sees that game objectively. You know? And so that this is the question where we need to take into our lives is, like, we aren't seeing anything objectively. We experience everything subjectively. And our bubble, our personal bubble. Our lens. Right? We've we have crafted a lens based on our experiences, based on our genetics, based on our time and space, based on our gender, based on our shame. Based on our shame, based on our success, based on our failures, based on our whole thing we've experienced. We've written stories about that in order to make the world make sense to us. And none of that's factual, accurate. There's there's facts in it, but it's not accurate. None of us see the whole truth. We only see in part. We see through a glass dimly, one guy wrote. You know? And one day, we'll see in full. Right? So it's like this the metaphor of that is like this smoky veil, the smoky glass that you can't really see. That you could just see shapes and figures moving behind it, but you can't really tell what's going on. That's what we all see. And that person, when they wrote that, was playing on some work of Plato where Plato talked about the shadows on the wall in the cave that we think it's real, but we're only seeing shadows of of ourselves dancing on the cave. And illumination comes or awareness comes when you realize that we're in a cave and the thing we're watching isn't our life at all. It's literally a projection of what we think our life is. And so then we do we leave the cave and go out to see the brightness of the world and its awe and its weirdness? You know? But a lot of us don't. A lot of us wanna stay the phrase I use is in the cul de sac of our own understanding because things feel safe. They feel knowable. They feel, understandable. They feel confirming. That confirms my narrative. I don't wanna ever Have to entertain an idea that that, pulls the the thread of my narrative because it all unravels. And now, like, I'm outside of my understanding, and it's scary. You know? Yeah. There's room for more. Yeah. The minute I do that, though, I start stitching back together a fabric, right, that helps me make sense of the world. And and so it's not an either or or a or it's a both and. Like, we have to write stories. And we have to unwrite stories. We have to question our own stories.

Be open to hearing something. But, yeah, I've I cannot the amount of times I projected a story onto my husband and, like, heard a different thing that he's actually is going on with him is it it always shocks me. Yeah. Yeah. But but then it opens me up into a whole other sphere of, well, this is his world, and, like, this this had nothing to do with me. And, woah. Like, yeah, this was not done in this kind of vein. Like, this wasn't done in what I thought it was. Yeah. Yeah. It is it is very enlightening to open up to believe something different. Unsettling too, though. Because if that's not true, then that's this other thing's not true, and then this is not true, and then maybe that's not true. And Right. I was parking my car one time, and I wasn't paying attention. And the the lady coming at me in the parking lot, and and there was an open parking lot open parking space and a crowded parking lot. And I wasn't paying attention, and she pulled and waited and then pulled in and turned in the parking lot in the parking space. And I just drove in and yeah. Well, see, you're making up a story. See. And so I just drove it. Again, I the key part is I wasn't paying attention. I did not even see that parking spot or how crowded the parking lot was. And so I pulled into another spot down the way. We end up in the store at the same time. There's there there are generally two kinds of people in the world, people that get out of a car quickly and then people that gather things and get out of a car slowly. I'm a park and go guy. Definitely. This person was a gather, get your stuff together person. You're a hunter. She is a gatherer. Yeah. Yeah. So I was so we hit the doorway at the same time, and she said, thank you so much for letting me have that spot.

And you said, you are welcome. I said, you're so welcome. My pleasure. I love that she made that story up. Yeah. The truth is painted you as a good guy. I was in my own world thinking about my own things, aloof, like, worried about my own problems, and she benefits. She painted she painted you into a kind gentleman. Yeah. Which is absurd. I must look like a kind gentleman that day. Yeah. It was her narrative. Yeah. I wonder how many aloof men she paints into kind gentlemen in her life. Yeah. And there's a guy last night at the gas station. The the, I was filling up my my tires were all really low of air yesterday. So they I think I drove through something, punctured all my tires. They're slowly leaking. So last night, I filled them up. Yeah. It's awesome. They all were. Just to test just to test how they're doing. When I go out to the car today, I'll I'll see. But, I was filling up with air, and I hear this man call from the gas pumps. And he said, excuse me. Can I get your help? Excuse me. Beat up beat up car. Beat up car. Big old, box truck, beat up car. And I was like, he's not talking to me. Like and and then Heather said, that man is calling to us. Right? I was like, okay. And she said, yes. And he said, I have broken legs. Can you can you fill up my car with gas my truck with gas?

And I I turned around. I said, what are you doing driving? I bet I bet all of our narratives are coming up wild right now. Right? And he goes, yeah. I I hurt myself. Do you mind filling up my car with gas? And I live in an urban area, so I'm always at a gas station being hit up for money. Yeah. Being like, you gotta kind of in an urban area. I don't I don't live in a, it's a gentrifying part of town, but it is still not, there's still lots of crime in my neighborhood at times. And so I just living in an urban city environment, I have a different I'm reading moments differently than I would if I was in another part of town. Right? So it's my neighborhood, so I know how to read that. I've learned I've been there sixteen years. I've learned how to read things. And this just wasn't nothing about this was adding up. It didn't feel dangerous. Okay. It was like because I was trying to put it in a I'm about to get scammed.

Right. Right? He handed me what I was doing. Yeah. He handed me his credit card. I fill it up with gas. We're we're talking. I I said, dude, what are you doing? How can you drive with broken legs? And he said, well, I had to move because my apartment was on two floors, and I I couldn't I was stuck. So I was fortunate enough to find an apartment. I'm living in Murfreesboro. I was fortunate enough to find an apartment in East Nashville that's closer to work. So I borrowed this truck, and I'm moving over here, and my friend is gonna meet me over here to move. And I'm thinking, oh, this is where he this is where he gets me because I was supposed to offer to move his furniture, and he's gonna, like, kidnap me. Right? And he's like he's like, man, I so appreciate it. He goes, you don't know how hard it is to get people to help you. And I look in the cab. He's got he's got cast on both his legs.

And he's got Seriously, though, how is he driving? With, like, with, like, a like, it was he he they were both below the ankle, like, below the knee cast. So his foot up to his knees, guy was we talked for a long time. He didn't ask for money. He didn't ask for Wow. To promote his furniture. He, was a really awesome dude. Like, really blew up your narrative. Yeah. He was a roofer, and he was putting a roof on a couple weeks ago and had a big piece of tin, and it caught the wind caught it. He's putting the cap on the chimney, and the wind caught it and blew him off a 30 foot roof. Oh. He landed on his feet, and he had spiral fractures in both his tibias. Oh my gosh. It's just a I mean and I said I said, what? I said, were you scared? He goes, I had two thoughts going when I was falling. He thought he said, I thought, is this really happening? Yeah. And then he goes, almost immediately, the second thought was, this is really happening. I just tried. I mean and so I couldn't like, I didn't fit I could not fit this in a story Yeah. Right in your neighborhood. Experienced people in my neighborhood driving box trucks with broken legs who needed help getting gas. I've experienced a lot of people asking me to pay for their gas. Right. Ask it, like, I don't have a job. My kids are in the car. And I I must look like a Mark because when I pull up at a gas station, people are like, there he is. Because I'll most of the time Your mark. I'll do it. Like Yeah. Sure. Like, yes. You know? They're like, this guy six pack in here too. He he didn't ask for any of that. He's like, thanks. Like you know? And, he said you could only watch so much YouTube. He had to get out. He only could watch so much YouTube. You know? It's like, the guy was awesome. I did get his phone number. I thought, Scott, I could be friends. He's fantastic. Like but his already had a have, because of my own biases, because of my own experiences in that neighborhood, because of all kinds of things, like, I didn't have a framework to make sense of his story till after he drove off. And then I was like, he's just a good guy. He's needing some help.

Yeah. He needed just honest help. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's been twisted so much, the help. And so, yeah, what are the stories we tell ourselves? And then what are the stories we tell ourselves about other people? And even when oftentimes they're right, they're sometimes wrong. Because I bet in me telling the story, people this thing have made up his race. They've made up his age. They Oh, yeah. I have a whole picture. Right? I shouldn't have used the word gender. I should've just talked about a person because then the people would have made up his gender. Right? You made up what color the box truck was. Yep. White brown. What color was it? It was tan. It was tan. It was tan? It was white? But it's fine. Like, you made up where I was getting gas. Based on quality, did you get gas? I know the exact corner. Yeah. So it's like, maybe. Right? But Yeah. Even telling this that we fill in the dots Mhmm. Instead of being curious. And we can't not fill in the dots. We can't not connect the dots. Right? So I'll end it by saying this. One of the greatest things we can do then in life is practice curiosity. Mhmm. One of the biggest hallmarks of love is our willingness to ask people questions or to ask ourselves questions about, like, what's really happening and and learn to have a bigger story, have a bigger framework, especially learn from people who aren't like us and who don't think like us.

Yeah. Because, you you moved in closer with your narrative, and you used your wisdom. Like, you had a narrative when this man asked for help. Like, when people ask for help, we have a narrative that comes up right away. Yeah. Especially my neighborhood. Yes. So that that was wise. It was wise to listen to that, yet you remained curious, took a step closer, or you were open for the narrative to change. Yeah. Yeah. I hope the guy got moved to his apartment okay with his crutches. And now you have a friend. I don't know if I'll ever see him again. I hope I do. Hope I see him again. But he, you know, he was from Michigan. He moved to Texas. He's been in Nashville twelve years. Like, I know that about him. Right? You know, we were making small talk. Right? Like, we made small talk. Right. Right. I and what I have to practice is I don't know what any of that means. I don't know what it means that he is from Michigan. I don't know what it means that he lived in Texas. I don't know what it means that he has moved to Nashville twelve years ago ago. Mhmm. I do know what it means that he's moving from Murfreesboro to East Nashville because that that means he's moving up in the world. That's just that's a little bit a little shot across the mall of my friends in Murfreesboro. Right. The borough. You know who you are. If you think so highly of Murfreesboro, I have to take a shot at it. Yeah. It's the thing. It's kinda like Texas. Texas. It's kinda like Texas. Murfreesboro is the Texas of Tennessee. Oh. So yeah. So I think what stories do we tell ourselves? How can we learn to be curious about ourselves and the stories? How can we learn to be curious about other people and their stories? How can we learn to build bridges through curiosity with people who aren't like us, who don't think like us so we can have a bigger picture? Most people are very reasonable about what they think and believe. If we're spending the time to understand where they're coming from, we'll understand why they are who they are.

Even if that person is your husband or your child or your friend Yeah. Yeah. There's all these layers built up that you've made up. Yes. Yeah. And we think they're like us. That's why we're married to them or are friends with them or like, we assume they're like us. And in lots of ways, they are. And in a lot of ways, they're not. And you don't really know a person until you know how different they are. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Alright. Good talking to you, Kate. Thanks, Stephen. Okay. This podcast is brought to you by Sage Hill, a social impact organization. Our mission is to help people be who they're made to be so that they can do what they're made to do. Find more resources to live fully, love deeply, and lead well at sagehillresources.com.