The Gift of Friendship

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they are made to be so they can do what they are made to do. In this podcast, Chip sits down with his longtime friend, Stephen James, to reminisce about their own friendship and discuss the three essential qualities to maintaining a friendship. Listen to learn about the gift that friendship brings to all of our lives. Chip, you and I have been friends for almost twenty years. Yeah. You know, most of my growing up, quite frankly, has has been with you as a friend. It's been a huge impact on my life, and I think I've impacted your life too. No doubt. And the other day, I was thinking, like, what does it mean to be a good friend, though? Like, we have this great friendship, but we don't spend a lot of time with each other on the weekends hanging out. Yeah. We we don't talk every day on the phone Right. With each other. We, we're super close. You know all about me. I know all about you. Mhmm.

And I would say and I think And that's truly that's truly true. Yeah. I mean, we we really do. No. So I really do know all about you. You do know all about me. We've we've hurt we both have hurt each other. And what allows that to happen too? Yeah. Yeah. Each other. So could you You've hurt me more, obviously. I probably have hurt you more. No no doubt. No doubt. No doubt. But if you'd hurt me, you probably wouldn't have responded. Well, I went on and I my fault. It's my fault. Oh, god. So if could you talk a little bit about, the qualities of friendship? What makes a good friend? Yeah. How do we operate in friendship? You know, even as you're talking, Steve, I remember a a story. I and this was this was, gosh, is what what we're twenty years from the in fact, you remember you and I I mean, the people listening to know that you you're the editor for The Voice of the Heart without your extraordinary work in the book. The book would never become what it is. Thank you. And well, yeah. And but that's where we, found each other. Where we met. Yeah. Yeah. And what drew us together was not just the quality of our character or what we were looking for or even the idea of mutual benefit. I mean, that's where a lot of people think there's a friendship when actually there's a usership, which, you know, intimacy around a goal, it can be a good thing. Yeah. And and can be, rewarding. A team or being on teams. But but it was affinity that drew us together and then we had a quality of character And then we had those characteristics that allow us to get along. So those things are common to true friendship, and I think most people know what those are. But a friendship, a real friendship is is where we have the capability of actually sharing the feelings in our hearts, the needs that we contend with, and then have boundaries within the context of of that openness or that intermingling.

So the feelings are the feelings in our in our hearts. Feelings. The We talk about the eight feelings that we're talking about. The needs. Needs. K. And then boundaries. And have boundaries. Three Those essential qualities for maintaining friendship. For for if there is affinity to grow that affinity, to advance what that affinity is about By affinity, you mean, like, mutual like and respect and everything. Which draws us around the same campfire. Right. And, it's not just about getting warm. It's that we would be there anyway, but the campfire is the focus. So people of affinity can also have a mission. People of affinity can also just hang out. Yeah. Because they're drawn to that thing that that draw that pulls them together. Right. You know, they just they just like each other. Right. Before it comes down to it. And we talk a lot about great marriages, of course, have great love in them. There's a care for the other person, but it's that desire to be connected with that person. They like the other person and want to talk to the other person, enjoy being around the other person, meets the great need of delight with within us to just simply have enjoyment is, I guess, a part of love, but, maybe even certainly more simply enjoyable than love. In that liking, there is almost no pain. Do you know? And love You're like, I love you, but do you like me? Yeah. I love you means I've signed a contract with pain. To be willing to go with could go Yeah. Pain with you. So far on your behalf. Liking is like the shared benefit of not being alone together and getting to work on something together. It's like kids playing. Yeah. Do you know? For sure. When when you and I did the book together, it became a lot of play. Yes. You know each other. You said that, the first hour where we we do the editing work, I I would kinda do therapeutics. It's like therapy for me. Yeah. And then we go to work. And then we go to work. That was good. So talk so we get we got heart, needs, and boundaries. Talk about heart. Before I do that, let me do I was years and years ago after we'd become friends and after after there was that affinity and after we had a sort of a mutual recognition that we were sort of headed to the same place and wanted to go. We had a a passion and a purpose and kind of a general plan. We want to do this together. We want to help people see who they're made to be so they do what they're made to do. You'd already, been to, no. You had not gone to, Seattle yet. The Mars Hill yet. Yeah. Seattle. But I was offered a very, very, very significant financial opportunity by a man who was older than more experienced than me, successful in the world. And, long story short, I told him no. And I I did not listen to his advice or wisdom. And then I I got in the car and left, having walked away from almost guaranteed benefit, but would have cost too much to have it. I would have had to give up too much in terms of what I value in life. But anyway, I remember I called you. At the time, I would say, compared to the man I just spoke to, very unsuccessful coaching, you know, girls' soccer, freelance, work, unsuccessful coaching, you know, girls soccer freelance, working in a publishing house. Your back seat's full of soccer balls. You I don't even think you had a back seat in your car at that time. So it it actually caught on fire. Yeah. Yeah. Your back seat burned out. It burned out. And and I remember starting to dial out. He said, I just walked away from one of the wealthiest men, you know, in our area who offered me a deal. I told him, no. And I'm calling you for wisdom to see if I had it was if it was a good idea. I told you. And I you know, it and we're laughing like crazy. I like, what an idiot I am to be drawn to someone I trust, who I know has my good in heart, and what wisdom he lacks, what love he has, what concern he has.

And And the willingness to believe in that over power and prestige. Speaking out of the affinity. Mhmm. I'd rather be on some levels poor within the affinity than wealthy alone. And and I think that story speaks to feelings, needs, and boundaries even there. But it also speaks to what we need to bring to a relationship and what we have to contend in a relationship. And in some ways, Solomon said in in in the book of Ecclesiastes, which is this very sorrowful book and a book of what it's like to live alone and what it's look like to not have meaning. But he said, pity the human being who falls down and has no one to pick him or her up. He's saying, pity the person who is alone. And that if a person that has ever been to that place ever felt that Which everybody has. Well, because that that's a place we run from, that place of helplessness that I fall, I can't get up. There's no one there for now. And my cry out is an echo in a vacuum with no air. So suffocation is like, I'm I'm I'm dead while living. It's an introduction to hell. And, and I'm not talking about the pleasure hell of addiction. I'm talking about the hell of having to feel life, know my condition, and to for no one to be there. So, I mean, I start talking about friendship from the context, not of desperation, but the condition of life without it. I don't want us to have friends because we're scared not to. I want us to have friends because we're made to. And so Solomon says that, and I hate to talk about friendship starting with the negative, but we all have the chance to have the Ebenezer Scrooge experience. If we wake up to our condition, Ebenezer Scrooge woke up and he threw up the window. He asked the time of day to some child from the, you know, at Dickens' Christmas Carol, what what time is what day is it, boy? And he says, Christmas Eve. And he turned and said, I still have time. I still have time to introduce my heart and to care and to offer myself and to see if someone would offer themselves to me. Can I have a place or a home? Aristotle said that and we don't think of Aristotle as a relationship person, but Aristotle said that a friend, doubles our joy and halves our sorrows. Mhmm. And that's all about who do I have to take my heartbreak to?

Who do I have also to take my heart delight? Yeah. Because we are just as frightened of sharing heart delight, if not more. I think people are more afraid of sharing heart delight. How come you think? Well, I think, one, we've had delight in the past, and it's been taken away. So we don't want that experience again. And it's a very vulnerable experience to be delighted in. And so if I share my delight with you, you can you not only can you take it away, but you could hurt me in that moment. You could make fun of me. You could tease me. Mhmm. I'm showing you my most vulnerable self, the thing that brings me joy. And, you know, too, that that we've been taught that delighting or being thrilled with something wonderful happening is bragging.

It makes other people feel bad. And we we have often discovered who our enemies are that people don't return the delight. In fact, they return envy, mockery, or jealousy. Mhmm. Which is the condition of being alone. So a lot of us withhold our delight or withhold our sorrows as a way to keep friends Yeah. Which is not friendship. So feelings are essential to discover if a person can live in the continuum with us, the polarities of life. We live between grief and celebration. To be able to bring my whole heart to another person. And they can meet me in it. They can meet me in it. And the only way they can meet me in it, Steve, is if they know what sorrow is or celebration is. They've gotta have faced their own sorrow. And when I met you, you you were a a an incredible young man, and and you and I are years apart yet that is is that there's not a lack of really separation. And the older I get, you're still fifteen years older than me. Well, the older I the older I get, the more same age we are. It's crazy. But Yeah. Or more I forget. But when I first met you, you you were sitting already to have everything that you're waiting to be born again as you were born. Yeah. I mean, because you were born with this and you were looking for the life that you're made to have but had gotten cynical about it. I said, hey. By the way, did you know blah? You're like, sure. And then you went, really? And then everything was automatic. And so you and I started sharing feelings with each other from the get go. Yeah. And here we are twenty years later. Yeah. And then Solomon also said, how wonderful it is to be able to fall down and there be someone there to pick me up. Or how wonderful it is to be cold at night and to have someone be there that can bring warmth. Solomon said three strands together is stronger than one. I mean, so he gave us the solution, take the risk of being in need with each other. And you and I have talked and written and spoken tons about needs. Right. But a need is something that has to be fulfilled or we will die emotionally and spiritually, which means be alone. So Solomon spoke so deeply to take the risk of being in need even in the book of Ecclesiastes, which is a book of incredible, depression. Yeah. Just vast

expansive I've looked everywhere and there's no there's nothing Nothing means anything. And he still said, nothing means anything. Nothing matters. And he still said, and in this place where nothing matters, friendship does. Now that's huge. It sure is. And so this this bringing our feelings and bringing our needs to each other is also the willingness to contend. You know, you're worth it. I'm worth it. And remember one of the founding fathers of America, they said that the only way this would work in terms of our Continental Congress, the only way we could pull this thing off, quote, unquote, is if we contend with each other. Pretending is anticipating the future and acting accordingly, Contending is showing up in the place of where the future is, showing up in daily life and actually bringing my heart to it, knowing that your heart may be different. But trust in that there's a process by me being truthful about me, you being truthful about you, we will have more together than we do apart. Mhmm. So I cannot fall. I cannot have to be living pity as long as you are in the world or as long as I am in the world. There's always somebody called. Do you remember when your second child was born? Yeah. And, you were living in Seattle. So scary. And, I had not spoken to you and really actually probably weeks at that time possibly. You think? No. It's probably we were talking a lot because we're working on the the podcast thing. But we were doing a lot of business together and become kind of a and I remember you you he was, in On death's door. He was free out. Just frankly put death's door. And you called me. Just said pray, pray, pray, pray. I was like, oh, god. Of course. You know? Mhmm.

I couldn't even tell you what's going on. So I was like, this is bad. Just pray. Just pray. It's just bad. And, yeah. So But that was better, like, knowing, like, to have you in it with me even 2,000 miles away without you knowing what was going on, but knowing you were in it with me and I wasn't alone Yeah. Was And in that prayer gave me the courage to walk through some really scary hard stuff that I'm not alone. Yeah. I'm not alone. With the people I love more than anyone. Yeah. And, you know, what we're describing here is you contend by sharing and risking feelings and needs. But then, you know, Robert Frost wrote a poem called Mending Fences. Good fences make good neighbors. And if you go and read many more, more more people won't than do. But it's really talking about the struggle of boundaries. That boundaries bring us together the need for fences. That bring us together to say, hey, this is where I live over here and this is where you live over over there. Mhmm. And your apple trees are here and my peaches trees are over there. And so, Rob Frost said, but how can we need a fence? And the farmer on the other side said, good fences make good neighbors. And Rob Frost is like, but do we really need to do this? And and the, the other guy he described as carrying, two rocks like like something primordial, savage. But he's also referring to tradition and ritual and need. And and we need boundaries, which means the only way you and I can stay in relationship is if you get to have your feelings and you get to have your needs. I get to have my feelings. I could have my needs. You take responsibility for yours. I take responsibility for my in fact, before we had lunch together before this, I said something about, well, Stephen, you did so. So you said, I'm not taking responsibility for your actions. I'm like, well, good gosh, Steve. Surely you can for five minutes. I'm not kidding. So boundaries are fences not walls. Yeah. But they really are forms of trusting the other person to take ownership of their feelings and their needs and still bring them. And still care about them. Absolutely. And the trust that this, which is between us,

will keep us together. Like, I care that you have to carry this, and it's yours to carry. Yes. You know? Yes. But and I I can't And I'm your neighbor next to you Mhmm. Who will help you put your fence back up if you've been rendered in true And if you need help carrying it for a while, I can. Okay. But I have my own things to carry to you. But I will need to be invited to come over your fence to help you pick the peach trees. But Robert Frost then talks about, like, your apple trees aren't gonna come threaten my peach trees. And see, boundaries are where we come together to share ourselves without the risk. We could talk we can talk forever about boundaries and how they work make relationship work. Yeah. It's Oh, yeah. Such an essential part of of what makes any kind of relationship work, but especially friendship. And in intimate relationship, there doesn't have to be a whole lot of time spent on boundaries

because it's where we come together. It's not what keeps us apart. It's where we come together. Right. You know? I lean over your face. You lean over mine. We share the story of the day. That, Tim Allen show where the guy would lean across the fence and say, howdy, neighbor. And, every time he needed help, he'd go to his backyard to think. And his wise old neighbor, Wilson, who only saw his eyes across the top of the fence, was there to be with him in it. Yeah. Never fix his problems, but always share his burden. So friendship is, is probably one of the greatest blessings of life outside of being able to love in a covenant of pain. And then the best blessing of friendship of all blessings is that at the end of time end of time for us, there will be hopefully six people to take our caskets to the grave. Yeah. Well, we won't know it, but it's those friends who get to honor the story of someone they got to live with as we would them. That is an incredible blessing in a meaningless place.

This is Stephen James, the executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, anxiety, depression, or burnout, please reach out to the Center for Professional Excellence for help. For more than twenty years, CPE's long term residential treatment programs have been helping professional men recover their lives, marriages, and families. To find out more, visit cpenashville.com. Further, if you're a therapist, a pastor, or professional that works with people, and you'd like to be better equipped to help them live fully, we invite you to learn more about Sage Hill training, an in-depth experiential training to help you bring your heart to the work you're called to do. You can visit Sage Hill Training to register.