The Art of Listening

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they are made to be so they can do what they're made to do. In this podcast, Chip sits down with his longtime friend, Stephen James, to discuss the art of listening. Chip, you and I both, for our our career and our work, are in some ways professional listeners. We sit and listen to people. They tell us their stories. You know, recently, I was I was working with a a young man, and he was talking, and he just started crying. He said, what's happening to me? And I said, well, I'm listening to you. And he said, no one's ever done that before. He said, 20 year old man. And he was used to as we started to talk, he was used to people monologuing with each other Yeah. Where he says one thing, and then while he's talking, I'm waiting to say what I'm gonna say. So I say it back. And so we have these these, dueling monologues. You know, that's how most people have a conversation. Yeah. And what struck me real profound in that conversation with that guy was that we don't listen. Like, people don't listen. And I know in my own life, like, as a counselor, I listen pretty well. But when I when it comes to Heather, I'm not the best listener. When it comes to kids, I'm not a great listener. When it comes to friends, I'm not a super listener. And, Chip, I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with is we don't listen. We don't know how to listen. No one's taught us to listen. We don't practice listening. I'll tell you. Yeah. I see. I just I wanna hear you talk about that. Well,

there's so many directions that I wanna go, but I'll tell you, you talked about listening professionally, and then you kinda separated it. Like, I don't listen to, you know, my wife as much Heather and so on, who I'm, like, I don't listen to Heather. And so when it became personal, somehow we lose the capacity to what we think of as listening to hear another person's story and get feedback into it or offer them the the value of what it's like to be seen. Because if you and I are really listening to somebody, then we're also seeing them. In fact, I've I've often compared it to, you know, people watching an action movie or or, you know, boxing. When somebody's really watching boxing, their their bodies begin to move with the boxing movements because they're getting emotionally involved. They're they're in the scene. They're at the place, which is which is truly an empathic place. They're relating to their own humanity in that condition. And that extraordinarily values another person. And then when we take it to our families, our spouses, I mean, when it requires we be personally, emotionally involved, there's something in us that can pull back because we fear the personal involvement. Because, honestly, the people that we have married and the children we are rearing and doing relationship with and the friends that are our deep compatriots, we have a harder time listening to them because our their decisions, their pains, their losses, their withdrawals also pull us. Mhmm. I mean, it truly, truly affects our lives. And and wherever we are fix it people, wherever a therapist, person, pastor, professional, friend, it doesn't make any difference. It's not about your profession. Yeah. Spouse. We if we can't tolerate the powerlessness that we all we have and if we devalue truly being present with another person, we can't really listen to them because our own worth is at stake, our lives are at stake. I mean So what's happening when we're Does that? Yeah.

So I'm with someone I care about. Let's let's just say it's Heather in this instance. Yeah. I was thinking about the woman the the the have you seen the The U everybody has seen the YouTube. The woman has a nail on her forehead and Yeah. It's not about the nail. Yeah. Yeah. So go ahead. It's funny. You we'll attach that to the the website. People can look at that. But, Yeah. That would be that would be pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. You never listen to me. You never listen to me. Listen to me. Yeah. He stops and listens, and she's like, thank you so much. Yeah. It's great. But I'm I'm so you're saying when I'm with someone that I care about, it's harder for me to listen because I get afraid.

Their pain equals threat to us. How so? Well, there is an attachment, which attachment really does mean a desire not to lose because of the pain that will occur if we lose that person or that place. So wherever we can't handle attachment without control, then their pain equals the threat of our loss. And then we wanna tend to grab, grasp at, fix, control Manage. Manage. Conjole. Put our imprint upon their voices. I mean, Sonya tells me you're great with everything until I start having feelings. And when I start having feelings, you're mister feeling guy. And I start having feelings, you end up having a problem. And I said, exactly. Because that my codependency, my inability to really tolerate losing you. And codependency comes from woundedness in our childhood. Yeah.

Yes. Because we equate not having a person having what we think of as negative feelings, which really are the feelings of life. A person having the feelings of life with us equals our being abandoned because almost all of us grew up told to that when when the big people in our worlds had feelings around us or, people were displeased with our behavior, instead of them joining us, we were almost always dismissed or threatened or judged or or some kind of overlay was put on us about our actions, if that makes sense. Makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah. So when we really lost We had to be somebody we really weren't in order to stay in relationships. Yes. So when people have feelings, we go to fixing. And I think a lot of therapists go straight to fixing. They listen from the context of fixing instead of listening from the context of believing that the process will heal them. Mhmm. The process of re I think a lot of husbands do that. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of moms do that. Yes. And the way we hear our children is by trying to protect them from the world instead of, their hearts being trained to recognize that the world is going to hurt them terribly, and we'll be there

when that happens. So that's the why it happens. How can I recognize that I'm doing that in the moment? Is there any way to know I'm not listening? Well, you know, I tell you what. I think about cutting in on people. I think planning what I'm going to say before a person finishes. Those two things, have caught me numerous times. I have caught myself and been caught in those two things. Daydreaming? It would definitely daydreaming. Out? Yeah. Checking out. But those other two things, it's like something I'm learning. I'm older now and and I'm learning that so many of the stories that people are telling me have a different ending than the one I've impressed upon them. And Say more about that. Well, people aren't categories. I mean, as a therapist and as a human, I've heard everything, Stephen. I mean Yeah. I nothing surprises me that I've done or that others do and that that we human beings are gonna not gonna get cured. There's no cure for living on earth and being human. But but being able to live being human well in all of our foibles and works in progress and wonder wonderfulness, you know, it's like to trust hearing the story, really listening to the story, it ends up turning out where they're more awful than we feared Mhmm. Or thought or sometimes more wonderful than we can imagine. We actually our lives are increased, one way or the other with the heroism of a person being able to persevere through the awful with our attending or the delight that we get to experience hearing a person's triumph or delight. I was taught by somebody recently, in fact. You know, we often associate it's just become a cliche that a person's gets trapped in performance instead of their presence, which I teach, and that a person's work can become their worth. But this very, very, really great athlete was talking to me. And, he through injuries and different difficulties, he ended up losing his capacity to to play, to to live in the athletic world. And at the same time, he lost that. He lost his dream. He lost what gave him that sense of direction. And I automatically assumed when I began to talk with him and be with him in the in the process of loss that, you know, he had mistaken his worth and his performance that in I'm only as good of a person as an athlete. Yeah. And in listening to him, instead of impressing my world view and my experience of other people too, because this doesn't make it not true. But in really listening to him, this is what he taught me. He said when I was young, I knew that I was really good at this sport. And I could do it easily. And I loved it. And I love getting to see what things could happen. And it was a joy to me. It was like I believed and knew that I was, like, able to do it and made to do it. I mean, when a person is in their creativity, they have found themselves. Mhmm. And they have found a world that in some ways is as good as they were born imagining before they could even think. It's maybe it sounds too poetic. But he said that at a young age and and and even when he started trying to get help with people, everybody automatically impressed upon him this idea that his performance and his worth were tied together. He said that wasn't true. He said, what I what I realized, he said of himself, is that when I lost my athletic capacity, I was back in helplessness and danger again. And he said, athletics protected me. At the same time, it left me in danger. He said that, when I was young, I realized I was really good. And instead of other people, like, celebrating that or enjoying that, I began to be harmed by that. He said, I would walk into a group of peers, and they would say insulting things to me instead of great things to me. And he said that I even knew that I was in danger with parents. Parents would not like me, he said, because I was better than their child. Better than their child and their parents were threatened. So he said, I realized I wasn't safe. Coaches wouldn't like you because you're you're achieving something they couldn't achieve. Yes. And so they're always trying to be as great as they need you to be. Yeah. They're trying to make you into more than than you want to be or more than you are. Can be. Yeah. Or more than you're ready to be. So so what he was telling me, nobody was listening. Nobody was paying attention. Everyone was impressing their worlds upon me. And I didn't know what the truth was until after I lost this thing. And I realized that it wasn't the sadness so much than the grief that I didn't get to relate to it. It was that I was I was struck by terror. I was afraid. Now I'm in true danger. I am helpless without my ability to keep myself safe. The one thing achieving in this sport kept me safe. Without the achievement, I wasn't safe. That talk where I was listening Really heard something different. Yes. This person taught me something, one about listening. Pay attention. Attend to what they're saying. Not in some Rogerian way like that's gonna be the cure, but engaging, which means being open to hearing that which I haven't before, but still knowing that I'm gonna hear another human

talking to a human. Well, you said something earlier that if I'm really listening in that moment, then I'm willing to hear something that's gonna make me have deeper feelings that I'm comfortable with. Mhmm. Like, it's really gonna disturb me. Yes. It's really gonna excite me. Yes. It's gonna take me out of control. Yes. And I tell you what, that this man taught me about a world that won't get fixed. He taught me about a sadness that will not get resolved. He taught me that how terrifying we as human beings are to each other and can be to each other. And that this idea of defensiveness, the things we do to keep ourselves safe, which means build an ego to make ourselves untouchable, is actually there's a rationale to it. It's understandable, of course. There's a wisdom to it. But if we don't gain the capacity to find the truth of ourselves and tell it to another person who will hear it, then we'll end up losing out on that which we're made to be like, which is we're in relationship, and we wind up being like the very people who harmed us in the first place. And that may be too much of a circle. No. I think it's a I think it's a great connection, which keeps us But but what I wanna say is he taught me. Yeah. And that's a listener is able to be taught. In learning posture. Yes. And when I listen to Sonya, and I'm not trying to find what I need to fix or trying to find out what I need to get her to be like. So you could be okay. Yeah. I'm telling you. I mean, it's like she teaches me things. Mhmm. So a a a listener is somebody who's open to the pain that comes with learning more about how to live.

That's great. One of the things, you know, a friend of ours, Dane Anthony, who's the director of spiritual formation at Sage Hill Counseling, Dane taught me there's a difference between honest questions and dishonest questions. And he says that an honest question is a question I don't know the answer to. Well said. A dishonest question is a is a statement mask as a question. An accusation mask as a it's a leading question that needs to get you somewhere. Oh, when people ask questions that they know the answers to, it's like, you know, I say, cut the rhetoric and just tell me what you're trying to trying to get me to Get me to see. And that's infuriating. Yes. So That's boxing a person into a corner and then thinking you had a good relationship with them when they finally shut down. I finally agreed with you. Yeah. It's just absurd. Yeah. So honest questions. And I've done it. You've done it. Oh, they're both. And I I hate it.

Another thing that we we talk about a lot and teach is the power of what questions, not why questions. Oh, yeah. If you really listen, you can't ask why questions. Oh, Stephen. That's wonderful. Because, you know, what what this this great question for somebody listening is what happened next? When we're we're asking a person to tell and struggle with the truth about themselves. I I don't even wanna use the word story. I mean, that's quickly gonna become a decision. Way of knowing the truth to yourself. Yeah. It's not the only way. No. Yeah. But, what happened then then what happened? And then where did you go then? And then how did that work out? And we're asking a person to speak about that which is emotionally laden. And when we ask a person, why did you do that? Or why do you think that occurred? Or why? It it it it leads to dead ends of reasoning. It it it leads to the dead end of, explanation. And and and it's the difference between going to your head and figuring out and defending versus going to your heart and feeling it through and expressing.

So we talk about what? Worst worst thing we can ask a person is why why. Oh, okay. Yeah. Do that. So what, when, how, like, all those are great questions. When, how, and That forced us to listen. Where. Right? Yeah. The Where are you? Where are you? Where are you? And the what the answer was emotional. Not why did you do that, Adam? Yeah. Where are you? God let himself be in a position to hear the story of the inner man, which put God in position of pain. And that question came from a willingness to have pain. And the theologians say that that question was a question of pain, that it was a moan. Oh, no. That which I intellectually God knew was going to happen because I'm present. And I'm God. I'm God. I'm not I'm omniscient. But God asked the question that was emotionally laden was now that this has occurred, I need to know where you are because your emotional answer is gonna be my reconciliation with you. Your confession, the ownership of being human is gonna be how I'm gonna touch you. And and and it was, I was afraid, so I hid. That to me is gigantic. And so when we're really listening to somebody, we're really paying attention to us asking them, where are you? And we're after that which is emotionally laden because that's the true story of a human being. But, as Stephen, as I get older, I'm I'm working at a deeper and deeper recognition. I think that that I don't know. I don't know. Well, the thing you've taught me that

I share with other people, and it seems to bring them relief and also great consternation, is it takes a lifetime to learn how to live. Oh, I hate that. But it's true. It's so freeing Yeah. In that sense, I don't have to have all the answers to my life today. Yep. And it's also so so frustrating in that you mean, I'm gonna be 80 and still learning how to live? Yes. 80 years old and still struggling with a lot of the same worries and fears in a in a different body than I had when I was younger. Mhmm. Same problems. Mhmm. Death, loneliness, isolation. Listening's one of those. Yeah. Hopefully, at 80, I'll be a better listener than I am at at at 43. If we take on the second part of life, we have the wisdom of knowing that we're not in control and somehow it's okay. And we want younger people to know it's gonna be okay. It's not okay. It's not okay, but it's gonna be okay because when you get into the second half of life, if if there's no god by the second half of life, then you are one of the problems. You are one of the misery makers, and you are the one of the reasons that young people do not listen to older people because all you have to share is your misery. And your your your what you've created life to be like instead of what you've let yourself receive by opening yourself up to life. You know, you let your your your fear guide you and your judgmentalism guide you instead of actually reaching out and listening to what the young people are saying. Tell you something else about listening too is, I don't I will appear not to listen well because I will cut in over and over again because I'm after the story that they're not telling. I don't I will not spend a whole lot of time listening to a bunch of fluff crap like I once did thinking I had to. And it can come down to look, if you're not gonna talk about that which is really going on, then I'm wasting your time and I'm definitely wasting my time. So I want you to know that sometimes listening doesn't look like it. You know? And and

I understand that. Yeah. Your tolerance for BS is Yeah. Extremely low. Yeah. Or your intolerance is high. And you know when we're really listening to a person, we cannot help but be in some kind of anguish or delight. Yeah. I I I'm I'm certain of that. So I can listen for two ways. This is what I'm not taking away today, is I can listen to either figure, fix, control, and survive, or I can listen with the posture of hearing, learning, growing, and knowing something about me, knowing something about the other, and really knowing something about Communing. Joining. And joining. Right. Being who we're made to be. And what you just said is brilliant. You're a genius. Thank you. Thanks for listening. This is Stephen James, the executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. If you're interested in learning more about the power of our core eight emotions, I encourage you to check out Chip's book, The Voice of the Heart, A Call to Full Living. If you're a therapist, a pastor, or professional that works with people, and you'd like to be better equipped to help people live fully, we invite you to learn more about Sage Hill training. This is an in-depth experiential training to help you bring your heart to the work you are called to do. You can visit sagehilltraining.com to find out more.