A Story of Purpose and Passion

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they are made to be so they can do what they are made to do. In this podcast, Chip sits down with Phil Herndon, the clinical director of the Center of Professional Excellence, to reflect on the early days of CPE. The story offers us an encouraging example of risking in faith and embracing the willingness to be in the painful struggle for things that matter. I want to start out by talking about first, how you and I met and honestly how, you know, you and I both leaning into the synchronicity or the trust in the process or like falling to the river and letting it take us. Basically, pursuing our dreams in spite of those things that would stop us. I thought it'd be really good if you and I just talked about how we came together. Because I met you in 1989 when I was in Texas, and we attempted to hire you to come to Bantry Counseling Center, which I was the clinical director of. And I thought it was a go, and then you turned it down when it went the way you needed to go. And then I basically didn't see you for really a period of years. Mhmm. And a a mutual friend of ours, who you knew a lot better than I did, dropped a book in your lap. So, if you wanna pick it up there and then we'll touch base on, actually, you moved into Tennessee and you've been the clinical director of CPE since 2005. Really, 2000 actually, 2006. You were here a year. Yep. And CPE opened in 1996. And I have to honestly say that until you came into my life in a in a true trusting, trustworthy way, I can honestly say I would not be where I'm sitting today with, frankly, some of the courageous steps that I've been blessed to take had it not been for you coming into my life. So and that is the as you know, that's the God's honest truth. So so anyway, pick up wherever you want to or I'll talk it to death. I remember

sitting in my living room in Texas and, our friend through, it's called the advanced reader's edition, which is kind of a voice of the heart, which is kind of a just beyond staple pages. Had apostrophe errors and all that stuff in it. I remember reading it and, this friend said to me, hey, do you know that guy? I said, oh, yeah. Yeah. We're we're good friends. And he said, well, he goes to my church. I said, in in Tennessee? He said, yeah. Tennessee. And moved there about 1996. Well, this was 2001. Uh-huh. So obviously, You didn't know I moved. No. Five years ago and by. But I remember reading that and, page by page. You and you and Steve and James and I, on some level, actually met in what was that? What year was that night? What year was that you got the book in your lap? 2001. So in 2001, Stephen James edited The Voice of the Heart, and I wrote it. And Uh-huh. And and here we are Yeah. Literally the five minutes before we started this podcast, Stephen just walked out of the room. So

so there we met and and, That's right. Yeah. I read the book and and, I called you. And I remember my only experience had been at a psychiatric hospital where we wrote a little program together for the hospital Yeah. Denture and our little practice Yeah. In Fort Worth. And, so my my only exposure to me and you are working on a project together. Yeah. And, so we talked and you're, you're quite enthusiastic about the work. And I was a pastor and scared of enthusiasm, what we know of being, you know, anger, passion Yeah. To be alive. And I remember talking to you. I remember hanging up and and saying to Sheila, my wife kinda going, something along the lines of something big is either happening or this is crazy. Yeah. Either way. Like, if someone will get completely away from thousand and one. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. It's something you don't wanna get completely away from or all in one of the two. And did and then after you called me,

CPE has been opened. And by the way, CPE is we'll talk about later. But CPE is a treatment center that opened in 1996 that treats men and their families for addiction, other behavioral problems, anxiety, depression. So extended treatment and so on that does recovery from what's ailing you so you get recovery of the life you're made to have. But but you you said, and I I called you again and, like, after you touched base with me about the book, I think I called you again in 2003. And you flew up here so that I interviewed you again. Like, hey, what about now? And remember, it didn't work out that time either. You flew back just the the right people weren't together at the time. Right? I made two trips out. The first one was in 2001. What do you call and said, do I wear a tie? I'm like, I'm not exactly

Hey, do I wear a tie? Like, I don't know. And then college yeah. Yeah. Don't worry about a tie. And then about ten minutes later, you you might better wear a tie. So okay. So I wore my pastor tie here. And, I remember I did a lecture with the with the guys. I remember, actually, women and men at that time were here. And I remember doing that talk with the people that were here. And Yeah. I remember you asking a question about what I had said. Well, I wasn't really counting on any questions. So I so answer those questions. I remember going back and then my church back in Texas has suffered a, you know, pretty traumatic event. Churchwide, a beloved pastor left, kind of Yeah. Surprised a lot of people, so ended up staying. And then we talked to left, kind of Yeah. Surprised a lot of people, so ended up staying and then we talked again a couple of years later. I've talked to people before, actually earlier this afternoon with our guys who are here, that, even during all that tumultuous time at the church, what I'd read in voice of the heart, touching base with you again, it never really left. Those are some really scary times back at the church. There's a lot of stuff going on Mhmm. Church wide and lots of stuff I'd never walked into before. But this this idea, Sheila and I began to call it the Nashville thing. Yeah. The Nashville thing would not go away. Yeah. Just all the distraction are never really went away. Like like in your gut. Like,

even though, like, common sense said let it go, practicality, the impossibility, it kept gnawing sort of at you, like, almost like a fantasy, dream. You didn't know which it was or something? Yes. And, I'll tell you what else was happening too. I didn't realize this. Part of what would you call a sickness, a relational sickness. I've been sober from alcohol, sex addiction, food, overeating addiction. I mean, all kinds of craziness for a long time chronologically speaking. Yeah. Emotionally speaking, I was pretty stunted still. And I remember sitting in my I told this story too this afternoon. Sitting in my living room in North Richland Hills, Texas, and I was doing my quiet time as we call it or PMR. Mhmm. CPU, you guys recognize that term, prayer, meditation, reading. Mhmm. Mhmm. And I remember, saying out loud into an empty room, God, you don't understand. I finally got what I always wanted. And I thought, oh, no. I think I'm about to move to Tennessee. Because what I had believed I had always wanted was to be a door, to be the big man on campus, and kinda my whole life had been kind of a rolling stone, never really settled anywhere. So I knew right then, I've I was being called into something way beyond having power or anything like that. Yeah. So Mhmm. Here we came. We packed up and, came out. And, again, I told Sheila, I said, I'm I'm not sure what all this is about, but we gotta do it. And I remember, you know, Sheila's an accountant. She's very, very categorical and Yeah. People would say risk aversive. Yeah. And I remember saying to her, are we really sure we're gonna do this? And the most risk aversive person I've ever known Uh-huh. I'm married to. Uh-huh. Gave me a look as if to kinda say, I'm done talking. We gotta go. It's we've been called to this. There's something too just as, to maybe to remind you.

I asked if you would please come up here and, you know, come work with CPE in 2003. Yeah. And then I don't remember if I sent the invitation back or again or but you turned me turned me down, turned it down. It wasn't the right time. And then sort of like it was sort of an open door sort of possibility, but it there was no sure fire. Hey, Phil. Come up here and work. It's gonna happen. And you're you kinda moved. You ended up moving here without a job. Yes. You moved here without you and I talking about come join me at CPE. You've got a place. And I got a bunch of guys. You pulled the truck in, you and Sheila. Mhmm. We had an old friend here from Texas who was living here in the area. He was there. And I pulled you pulled the truck in and all of a sudden, I pulled up with about, I don't know, six or seven guys. And we we met the record, my first, like, top record for ever emptying a truck in forty five minutes and washer and dryer, actually in the children. Right? Uh-huh. And remember Rush was the guy who put it in. I was like, that's the only thing he did. But I was standing out under a tree and we were just soaking wet with sweat. And you said that you overheard a conversation where this guy asked me, said, well, is Phil coming up to work with you? And I said What Phil gonna do at CP HQ? Yeah. I said, well, I don't know what he's gonna do. You said, you felt the blood Yes. Drain out of your body. Yes.

It occurred to me. I don't have a job. Uh-huh. I don't have any benefits. Uh-huh. Here I am. I left a plum Uh-huh. Place. Uh-huh. And as a pastor, you left without, you know, frankly, having to. I mean, you were welcome to stay. Oh, yeah. It was a a great, grief slash blessing for you to depart. I mean, people wanted you to stay. Mhmm. And you did this. Mhmm. And Stephen James, left. He was he had was leaving a, really a pretty, pretty, big graduate school, and they saw his talent, asked him to stay and become vice president of marketing for their, you know, their mission. And he came back here to kinda, you know, struggle in ways that he didn't have to. So that's kind of the, like, the calling thing or the that which we can't deny the gut movement. It it's it's not choosing pain, but it's going ahead and sort of yielding to that which we can't get away from and it's not addiction. Willing to be in pain if that's what it takes. Yeah. It's Kind of well with that. Yeah. And you did it and wound up exactly by the time you moved in. You were in pain. So oh. Whatever. Yeah. So okay. I interrupted you, but what happened next?

I mean, what what happened? And how do we After being slammed up against the truth that I didn't have a job? Yes. Well, I, I didn't know what else to do. So I started a little practice in a little town where we both live in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. And, the thing, really exploded. It was very successful as practices go. And but, I You and I were talking. We were talking along the way and In fact, we were doing a small men's group out on my back porch. Right. Every Thursday morning. Every Saturday. Yeah. And then Stephen James is there. Yeah. It's where you, recognize the proof of you walking in faith. Yeah. That's why I wouldn't pretend to be There are some people that disagree. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Wow. Yes. Know the story. Know the time. So, there was this, a really several poignant markers happened in my life. One was, I had decided that no longer matter what god said, didn't remember what anybody said, I was going back home to Texas. Yeah. Took my phone out to Little Greenway Trail, it's called in Murfreesboro, take a walk, and to call my friend in Texas and say I'm coming home. Made a big mistake. Make a way. It's just it's just bad mistake. Failed experiment. Been fun. Mhmm. Had to go back. Mhmm. And, it's craziest thing. My my my memory at least is that the phone was perfect working order. I had my journal in one hand, my phone in the other, and I went to make the call. I found his name. This is during the daytime where everybody else in the world's at work. Right? Oh, yeah. Just a horrible place. I'm on the Greenway Trail and lots and lots of moms pushing strollers. That that was it. Yeah. And, I, got it insult to to the women. No. That's who it was. Yeah. That's literally who it was. With their babies and having fun and Not a metaphor. It's real. No. They're really that's who was there. Yeah. And, went to call my friend back in Texas, and my phone went completely dead. It didn't it didn't like, the it wasn't that the call didn't go through. The phone died. Completely gone. White screen. Yeah. And so I had enough sense about me to go. If I throw my phone in the river, my wife will kill me. Yeah. I had my journal in my hand, so I decided to throw my journal in the river instead. And I threw my journal and missed the river. It didn't go in. And so I just began to run like crazy man down the trail. Oh, yeah. It just started running. And, ran. I was out of breath and circle back, got my journal, and went to I wrote in my journal so hard. Literally, the the point of the pen broke through the pages, tearing the pages. Mhmm. Got home, and I've never done this before. I hid my journal so no one would see it because how much what was in it. Uh-huh. Just raw, just, you know, pain, rage, and Yeah. Craziness. And, later that night, I had my phone in my hand. I had plan b Right. Was, I was gonna go upstairs in my bonus room, and I was going to send out resumes until I fell asleep in my computer. And I didn't care what it was. Yeah. I'm I'm as much an engineer, as I am a pumpkin or something. Uh-huh. I went upstairs, and I I remember I I've seen a job earlier for a, a manufacturing engineer for Owens Corning. I was gonna apply for that. In Texas. Yeah. Going back to Texas. Yeah. I was in was in Houston, which is 8,000 miles from where I live. I was going there anyway. But it was Yeah. And on my way to the bonus room, I had my phone in my hand. My phone buzzed, and it was you. And you said, hey. We've had, a guy just left all of a sudden, and I'm wondering if you can help us out at CPE.

Within that very that very The same as three hours after I got off the trail. Yeah. Let me ask you something even though it doesn't necessarily fit with necessarily what we're talking about. And so many so often when we follow our gut or follow the visions, that we can't get away from, We call it walking in faith or taking risks or, you know, this you and I are not talking about if you hope it, it will happen or if you build it, they will come. No. Because some people are at that same place where you were and there's not a phone call. Yeah. Or they say the prayer, you know what I'm talking about, and the check doesn't come. Mhmm. What? And and I know you and I didn't plan this, but, like, where where does that fit with that night? Or does it at all? Or what do you say because that happened, Phil. We're talking about some synchronicity. We're talking about some with the quote accidents or some coincidences. And I'm not answering the question, but I would suggest this is scary and crazy. That if we just keep leaning in when the phone call doesn't come, it doesn't mean that the quote phone call did not come, unquote. It means that there is something coming. Not as magical thinking, but life works a certain way. There really is a God who is with us. Emmanuel, God with us. Mhmm. It doesn't mean, Emmanuel, God fix us. Yeah. Because, you know, as Beckett said, we're on earth and there is no cure. Mhmm. There's no rescue from us having to experience this. I mean, you're a man of faith. I mean, you took a risk. You'd finally gotten to where, you know, you thought you wanted to be. You climbed the ladder in success in the church. And it was all kinda like happened for you. Mhmm. And then you're trying to throw your your precious journal in the river and you can't even hit it and you hate yourself and you take off like crazy. Yes. You're gonna be an engineer in Houston. And I've been laughing like talking to you because I kinda know the story. No. I do know the story. Yeah. But, I mean, in talking to you again, I can't I look at you and I start laughing because one is the celebration that you and I wound up getting to do something that frankly put is bigger than we planned and is not as big as we wish. Yeah. That's true as well. That's true. Absolutely. And had the phone call not come, we know that maybe it would have come the next day. But it was very, very amazing Mhmm. That a phone call came that night. And then I was put in position to have to think past where I let things go a lot of times, because I'm not exactly what I would consider the most administrative type. Do you know? Yeah. But I picked up the phone. Yes. You did. Yeah.

I do know. I I finally, anything I do right here, I come tell you because I know that I'll forget to tell anybody else. So it's like, hey. Go see Phil. But, phone call came and, I I needed you and, and you, you know, my need and your need collided and Mhmm. But it was also our hopes collided Mhmm. And our wishes collided Mhmm. Better than what we had really even knew because it was only a year and a half later that you became the clinical director. And do you remember the series of events occur, CPE struggles, things change around, and, you I was out looking for a clinical director. Do you remember? Oh, I do. And you you came to me and said, like, what does clinical director do exactly? And I'm like, well, you know, and Phil. And you you said, well, I can do that. I'm like, well, then you'd be the clinical. Yeah. We're the The search is over right here at the table where we've been sitting. Yeah. So oh, gosh. That's right. Yeah. So, anyway, the phone call came and a year later, you're the director. Sure. Yeah. And, came up and

it's a little a little bit of the same experience, not nearly as scary. I thought, oh, wow. Okay. I guess I I guess I work at CPE now and, alright. Yeah. And so we're working these real life people up to CPE, these very extraordinarily high functioning, brilliant, and very sick men. Uh-huh. Come in here and, like, wow. It really did remind me of graduate school training. The very first night of working with real life people Yeah. It got really real driving up the next day going, I'm about to sit across from and talk to men who are married to these women. I'm talking to these women on the phone and pretty soon be sitting in the same room with them. Yeah. Man, now what? Yeah. And where we talk about, of course, all day here, like, that's a thing called fear happening to me going, I need to pay attention. I I need help. Mhmm. I'm doing something really big here. Now if I hadn't done it before, pastoring or whatever, but, man, this is getting real. Yeah. And, you know,

we started, and I'm founder of CPE with some other people at that time. But what what we ended up bringing what I ended up bringing here, you know, in terms of the spiritual root system a long time ago, was this belief that recovery from whatever it is stopping you from having the life you're made to have is assumed with treatment. And it's it's just made to happen with recovery programs, whatever they are. But getting recovery of the life you're made to have Mhmm. Is the big deal. Mhmm. And that's what the spiritual root system is made to be. Because you took a risk of listening to your heart back, way back. And I had done it, but I also more ways than I even realized, I was doing it more alone than I wanted to. And even even Phil knew, that I was until you came into the picture and, brought brought the rest of the meaning of what it is to live in appropriate in inappropriate authority. Because I mean, without a doubt, you are the shepherd where I am the what would you say? The I don't know. What are you thinking? What

first word leader, you know, just like Yeah. I'll tell you what someone said to me one time. Someone said to me, obviously, metaphorically Yeah. When I came to CPE, Chip met me at the front door with a sword in his hand and just started lopping off stuff off of me that that wasn't me. Yeah. Or I just lopping stuff off. It wasn't me. And you talking to me, so it's almost like you were oozing from the walls, from the ceiling, from the floor. Yeah. And so together, this is not the same guy. Yes. A guy later on said Yeah. There is no fill without chip. There's no chip without fill. Yeah. There is no CPE without Yeah. What we're describing. Yeah. And I'll tell you what I'm gonna tell

a a just a I wanna tell a story I just heard the other day that really kinda speaks to what you and I have been trusting now for years and what you and and I both in our different ways, like, how I wound up really following a similar path back in really '89 and then '95 moving to Tennessee, following that that heart, that trusting a process, trusting that there is a process, trusting the river of life, not having control, but not being able to get away from the dream. You know what it says? The, faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see. But, the writer of Hebrews says, the ancients were commended for that faith. Mhmm. And what we're talking about today is how you and I both without compliment to ourselves, could not get away from a hope that we were sure about and, a certainty, you know, being being sure of what we hope for and we were certain of what we did not see. Neither one of us has ever been able to get away from passion as much as we tried and being sure of what we hope for. That's a passion. It's like, I can't get away from this thing, and I'm willing to be in pain for it because I can't quit seeing something I know has got to be out there. Yes. I know that, and I'm not talking about prosperity because it can turn out to in death. Mhmm. And yet, if we don't walk in that faith that being sure of what we hope for is certain what we do not see being walking in passion and vision, we never live. And so you've done that. And and, there and what we're trusting and you see if this is so. I mean, it's about, like, a story my cousin told me. My cousin said he's a physician who, has been retired. He and his wife have gone on two or three cruises. And he he said that he would send me verification of this because there's a photograph he has. And apparently, the story had been on a a sixty minutes episode some years ago. He said he was leaving a cruise and that, he sat down with because everything was crowded and there there were so many people leaving at the same time. Everybody sort of squashed in together. And he sat down at a table, one seat left and there was a couple sitting there, an older couple than he and his wife. And, in their late seventies, eighties, I think even. And he overheard the woman say, he doesn't he overheard the man say, he doesn't wanna hear that story. And and Bobby said, he looked up like, you know, it's obvious. And and the woman said, she he might. He might. He might. And, and Bobby goes, what story? And he goes, oh. And the man goes, and this is this is a Jewish couple in their eighties. And you you know the you know exactly what what they sound like what they sound like. He doesn't wanna hear this story. They're crazy. Yeah. Exactly. It was that kind of thing. Bobby was attempting to do that. No. They don't don't worry about it. So and so the man starts telling Bobby the story, and it's this is a this is a factual story and it's happening in our lives all the time. It's scary as it is to say. But the the woman had been a victim of of Auschwitz And World War two had been in in the the the, death camp for four years. The man had been in the death camp for five years. And the allied forces came in to the camp and and and opened up the camp and freed the the prisoners. But they told them to stay where they were because there's no home. We can give you food, but there's no home. You're you're homeless, so stay in this place that is shocking. Stay in the place of your trauma. Well, the man had gotten down to seventy pounds from one fifty. He the story goes, the man said, he was walking, to some place to food or sleep or rest or the allied forces, And he walked past the pile of corpses and was so weak he fell into the corpses and passed out. The woman sitting to this table was walking along with her aunt and heard a groan from the pile. This was gonna be scooped up or something within a period of time. She said, I heard a man groan and they went over the pile. They lifted him off the pile, 70 pounds and carried him, walked him or something to some place where he could, rest or receive help. And he remained unconscious, and then I think they spoon fed him soup or something. Well, at at some period of time later, while both women were gone from this place, he awakened. He got up, sort of dragged and feebly dragged himself out, wound up in the middle of one of the roads, collapsed. Some of the allied forces picked up this person, carried him to a next place. He never saw the woman, never met the aunt, and, both of them ended up being taken apart. Never saw he had never seen her and she simply he disappeared. She lost him. Well, the woman immigrates to The United States, from The United States to Toronto, Canada. Actually, immigrated to Canada and went to work in Toronto. He stayed in Germany and and found work, didn't work out, got his health back, had a kin some kinship with kin with people, end up moving to New York City. He ends up okay work, gets invited to come up to Toronto to work. He goes to Toronto, gets a job, ends up being invited to a party. And the man said, he was at the party and he heard in one from one room, he heard someone laugh. And in some some way, he recognized the familiarity of that laugh, that voice, that sound. It kinda triggered something in his memory, that forgotten memory. The we know the limbic world. What we might say, it triggered something in his heart. Something stored up inside of him. And he followed the sound. He went to the next room looking for that voice and listening for that laugh. And he said he walked into the room and a woman screamed. He looked straight at the woman and the woman was looking at him scream and recognized him from some many years ago. God. And they got married. And there they were sitting at the table telling Bobby the story. Now that's an amazing story. Turns out that that there is I think this his suitcase was even rediscovered. You know how they piled the Germans piled up all these goods and were getting rid of them, selling them, stealing them, and so on. And his suitcase is actually in one of the Holocaust museums. He and his wife went and saw it. But here's something else about that story. I was talking to my sister and brother who we've been talking now for every almost every Saturday for, like, eleven or eleven months. Really coming back together in ways that were, not fault whatever happened, honestly. That has been really good. Really, really a blessing. And, you know, blessing means it's a process where too. It means kinda going to your knees with your hands out to be raised up. So Mhmm. You know, humility to exaltation. And the funny thing was I said, hey, Leslie, you know, what do you think about why don't we get the family good? I haven't had any kind of family reunion type thing. And I was thinking, what about Bobby and and there were, you know, 30 other people. So she makes a couple of calls. We wind up having a reunion. For some reason, all I wanted to see was Bobby. And I don't know why because Bobby and I are not close. We're not serious. In fact, he might even be just the opposite of letting himself be serious. I noticed when the the it ended up being 35 people, they sort of casually got together. Then I ended up kinda like walking up to Bobby, talking a little bit, going somewhere else, talking a little bit, like I was looking for something. Just as he was leaving, he tells me this story about synchronicity, about conversion, about serendipity, about Lanayapi, like, about how did this happen. This is so far beyond throwing a penny in the ocean and and and and being sent on a a mission to find it and finding it. And I'm suggesting, I know this goes this is this is goes against reality. I get that. Because I'm big into reality. And like I said, we're on earth and there's no cure. Life is tragic. Mhmm. And yet, and God is faithful in the midst of the tragedy. I know there were dead bodies and yet there was this one story. And so I cannot account for the dead bodies. This side of heaven. Mhmm. But I also know I can talk about this side of heaven. So I can talk about two places at once, you know. Yeah. So I'm just suggesting that you and I met, and then you and I met again, and you and I accidentally met. Me too. And then I finally said, just forget it. You know, I said, I I believe Phil's moving here when I see the truck. And then you came up in a truck and there's no job. Went against everything. I moved here under a call. It made no sense. Stephen James left a place, in, West Coast that had great great he would have been quite well known by now. So I'm suggesting that there is and I'm saying that, and I cannot help but know that there is a whole lot more going on than what we see. Uh-huh. And I wanna just stop today possibly with just thanking you for taking a risk of being a a person who walks in faith. And not only did that faith really bring you here, but that faith, I've watched you as a man grow into I I always call you the the, you know, the warrior shepherd or the shepherd warrior that I've watched you actually walk with men into the same experience of believing what, happened for you could also happen for them. And, I've seen it happen, Phil. I've seen it happen. And that's the difference between being a witness and believing something. Mhmm. We believe something, we recognize it might, could, and has happened. But witness means I bathed in it. I bled in it. I felt it, I breathed it, I tasted it, I know it's so. I can't explain it. So here we are ending today with, I can't explain it, I just know it's so.

This is Stephen James, the executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, anxiety, depression, or burnout, please reach out to the Center for Professional Excellence for help. For more than twenty years, CBE's long term term residential treatment programs have been helping professional men recover their lives, marriages, and families. To find out more, visit cpenashville.com.