The Needs of the Heart

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast Chip sits down with Stephen James to discuss his new book, The Needs of the Heart. To learn more, visit sagehillresources.com. You know, I, honestly, I'm sharing what I found, and I'm sharing what I was given. I did not know that needs were what they were. I touch on that in this book. But let me tell you, '19, oh, eighty something, a therapist asked me what I needed. And I remember looking at her and saying in my mind, going through, like, how to answer her based on what I had been taught. I didn't know how to ask myself the question. I didn't even know how to touch what that even meant. But I I knew how to try to do it right. And really, that said so much more than me being able to answer. It showed how delayed, how removed, how far from how I was created I had become. Because I answered her, I thought, okay, Maslow, self actualization. I went through that in my mind because I've read that in college or high school. And so I wanted to make sure I answered correctly. So I said food, water, shelter, clothing. Those are my needs. If you thought she was quizzing you about neediness, like, what do you need? Yeah. Clothing shelter. Well, and I thought also, I felt this dawning kind of fear. I don't know how to answer you. And because I don't know what needs are because she had asked me before, what do you do for fun? And I said, work, lift lift weights. And she looked at me, like, strangely, like, you know, work out. That I did that for fun. And I'm like I'm doing a hard day at work. Yeah. Yeah. Home and work. Well, yeah. Because, you know, I would pour concrete, and a day won't complete years ago unless I had gone home and run two or three miles. Like, this is some I just like, gotta be strong in mind, body, and spirit. And in my mind, mind, body, and spirit was the whole human being. Crucial word missing heart. Yeah. Mind, body, spirit, and no heart. And I thought that was strength. So I did not know. So I answered her and I said, everything that follows food, water, shelter, and clothing is a luxury. I consider those wants or just, things we can appreciate. Everything else is icing on the cake. I was so arrogant without meaning to be so much arrogance wrapped up in shame. So much, attempting to perform and do it right wrapped up in fear. And so much antipathy, which is, frankly, a a a self hatred of that which I did not know was in me, that is neediness. Because neediness equaled failure. Failure equaled rejection. Rejection equaled having nowhere to go, and I wasn't ever gonna be that person again. I had I did not know that. I had forgotten that. So I answered her question. And then sort of some years roll by, and, let's just say I get better. It there's an an awakening. But the awakening was to needs neediness. I did not know until I got into recovery of my own heart, honestly, that needs are things that have to be fulfilled or we will, experience a living death, a survival without life. A zombie life. Well, it is a zombie life no matter how much we look great. If we stop and ask ourselves, are you okay? If we can compare our outside worlds, we go, yeah. But if we ask ourselves the question and if we're not in touch with needs and neediness, we can't say, yeah, I'm okay, because we're not. Because we're not able to truly connect with ourselves, others, and God. And we know, you and I know, that human being, the food, the nourishment of a human being really is relationship. I mean, it really is belonging and mattering with another human being. Knowing I could be myself with you and I won't wind up in, you know, terrible rejected situations. It's it's just amazing. So, anyway, I discovered that needs were predominantly emotional and relational, not physical, not so much even biological, although those are real. Very, very real. But But we're not just biological creatures. No. We we and spiritual. We are emotional, spiritual creatures housed in biology. And a child will starve to death, so to speak, in need of belonging and mattering to a parent in the name of what must I do to belong to you, to be accepted as I am and to matter to you, to be appreciated for what I bring. I will literally starve to death without complaint. And you'll hear stories, though, the most horrific stories we can't even imagine. You heard about a child. I remember there was a even locally, there was a child that had been chained downstairs in these people's house. And when they found him, he weighed seventy pounds. Do you remember that? Yeah. He was like a fifth grader or a sixth grader. Do you remember? And what I'm saying is that was a literal expression, Stephen. And this is where you you know, people listening might kinda bump up against this. Like, come on. That's ridiculous. But there was a literal expression of how many of us physically exist and survive. We're chained within, hidden within, obedient on the outside, doing what we're told, trying to seek the approval of others, trying to belong, trying not to complain. It which led me to a place of thinking that needs were food, water, shelter, and clothing, everything else I needed to be grateful for. And I had no no I had no need to strength was not needing

to be touched. It sounds like you're saying our needs, which are the first two needs in the book, belonging and matter, our needs to belong and matter are so strong. In order to belong in matter, we'll kill off our neediness. Yes. I mean, you you think about some of the most unreasonable positions people put themselves in. Yeah. And, of course, we're not really talking about it yet, but a person who savages other people, let's say starts a game, and they harm other people, that actually is ironically and even tragically understandable. And I'm not talking about there being no consequences by understanding people. But but to understand that the need to belong and the need to matter is so powerful, people will kill to belong in a group. Yep. And you think about that when you start Nazism took off. Exactly. Gang violence. Yep. Yeah. The or a person who is in denial of their needs will wind up in situations and do things unconscionably,

like, without consciousness. Recognition of our needs, we don't even have our own consciousness. Well, frankly put, no. Wow. So we talk about belonging matter. I'm gonna go through some of the needs you touch on them a little bit. Security. That's another one you talk about. Yeah. Could you talk about the need for security? Security is, paradoxical because security is a place. Literally, sometimes physically a place, but, really, it's a place we can go where the people are there and God Yeah. Or God and people or people without God, but God will be there anyway, or a place where we're with ourselves where you could be insecure. Security is a place you go to be able to sorta come apart without falling to pieces because people are there to contain you. We all know that. For example yeah. Yeah. A place I can go where everybody knows my name, and I can be myself. You Cheers. Cheers. Exactly. Yeah. It's a whole show built on the need for A whole show like when you walk in, hey, you know, Cliffy or whoever. Yeah. But the truth is I was drawn here because everybody knows my name. Yeah. Yeah. Need for touch. Yeah. The need for touch. I mean, it's it's it's actually food. I mean, that say, somebody actually pats you on the arm. Like emotional food. Yeah. That that that somebody simply lays a hand on your shoulder. When you're at a point of need and and loneliness and sadness and somebody touches your shoulder, something in you is a need of the heart is met by a touch on the shoulder that says, I am here. I am with you. And if that's absorbed into your heart, you're no longer as alone and you're no longer as afraid. Though you may still have the sadness, you may still have the struggle, but by not being alone means you're supported. And therefore, if you're supported that you might make it and that somebody's with you while you can't. One touch One touch. On the shoulder. Yeah.

I'm gonna read through some of the other needs. Okay. So I'm gonna run through them, and I want you to then pick up a couple and talk about them. Okay? So there's the need for grief, the need for attention, the need for sexuality, the need for guidance, the need for accomplishment, the need for support. I just you have 14 needs here. Yeah. And there are more. There's there's more than the 14 you put in the book? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. What about that? Well, why'd you leave some out? Well, because they're like needs aren't like feelings. It's like they're they're they're more and then more. But those are very basic, essential, guiding, formative needs. Okay. Yeah. Talk about the need then. I want you here to talk about the need for accomplishment.

Ah, Ah, I tell you, I love that one. And by the way, the need to belong and the need to matter have primacy over all the other needs. Mhmm. And then all the other needs past belonging and mattering sort of fall in in no specific ordinal or descending order of importance. They all matter. Okay? But the need to belong and the need to matter are the essential feeling, essential needs that must be met for a person to be able to be open To the other needs. To the other needs. Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? Makes total sense. But listen to what accomplishment is. In our society that denies neediness, Now remember, neediness is vulnerability to be open, to ask for my own heart to be fed. Right. Okay? And so neediness is a form of vulnerability. And it's what gives me strength if my needs are met. Mhmm. I'm able to

pour myself out of Through my vulnerability, I become strong. Yeah. Yeah. The need for accomplishment in a society that is focused a lot on self sufficiency, and we've talked before about how our society is an addict. Yes. I hope that's huge. It's all connected. But the need for accomplishment is not the need to achieve. It's not to get the job done. The irony of the need for accomplishment is it's threefold. It's to know your limits. Because if you have a dream of getting something done, alright, and you apply yourself to that goal or that vision or that mission, then you give yourself to it, and then there's a point at which it's marginal diminishing returns. It's an economic principle to say that you can continue to apply energy, but your productivity is going down. So you need to stop. So in the world of accomplishment, as you move towards your mission, your goals, your dreams, there's a point at which you've done all you can. So you need to stop. So the first need, the need for accomplishment, the first form, the first part of that is met through knowing when to stop. Secondly, time to stop and celebrate, to look at what was done. You do not compare the completion of the vision with the daily operation. You look at the daily operation and you celebrate what did happen. And then you and I maybe we're gonna do this podcast. You're tired from the day. It's later in the day. There's a certain point where it's like we're not doing any any good. Do you see? Yeah. But we're not at that place right now. But after we're done, we're just like, that's it. Let's stop. We're gonna celebrate. Like, hey. I I enjoyed doing that with you. I'm glad we did it. The the world hasn't changed, but we we offered something to the world. Mhmm. And then we go home and rest. What do we rest for? So we can get up and accomplish again. Go do that which we're called to do So how does the need for accomplishment not become performance then? Because it's it it's an expression of neediness. Like, I I can't go any farther, and that puts me in a position to give up your approval and face myself and hope that I will belong and matter and be valuable to you even though if I go any farther, it's a mistake. So accomplishment and Sabbath are so tied together? Accomplishment and daily life are daily Sabbath even as crazy as Sabbath. But now listen, Stephen. It's it's crazy, but it's know your limits and stop. Celebrate. Celebrate what was done. Alright? Yeah. And rest. And rest. Yeah. But not not stop and rest and celebrate. Stop and celebrate and rest.

What's another one you wanna do? Attention. Okay. How about the need for attention? I'll tell you the need for attention. And and I get excited about these, Stephen, because I didn't know these. And so what's amazing is I can remember where I was, and I can remember what happened, and I can remember where I am today. And so I guess the the the awareness of heart in my own life, sort of awakened me to, well, I want you to know too because I know I live without it. So don't. Even the word neediness does not have any kind of positive connotation. It equals To the twisted Yeah. And and, Stephen, Isaiah fifty five two and three talks very clearly about the currency that god uses. It says, all of you and and to paraphrase, all of you who who don't have any money, come to the river and purchase food, that richest food of all that will feed your very soul. And so it sounds like a conflict in terms. It says, if all of you don't have any money, come and buy. Well, what's the what what's the currency that I'm expected to bring when I don't have any money? Because it's talking about any an emotional and spiritual currency. Bring my neediness. Bring my neediness. God's currency is our neediness so he can give us food that feeds more than our bodies, but our very souls in reference to our inner beings so that we are full and rich within and rich people give things away. So how does that what do with attention? Okay. Attention is, like, attention is something we're trained at the age of eight, 12 that if you need it, it's a shameful thing. Like, oh, you need some attention? Just hearing that, it automatically makes a person go, no or, well, yes, and makes them sound like a child. But the need for attention really means the need to be tended to. In other words, every person is a pitcher that is made to be filled. A water pitcher. A water pitcher. Not a not a baseball pitcher or picture. A southern phrase of picture, but and then when a person's poured out, they need to be refilled. So attention is the refilling of a person who's poured themselves out so they can go out and end up giving themselves away again. So attention, the older we get, the more mature we become. Frankly put, the more important we become, the more attention we need. Grown ups need more tending to than even children. A couple giving attention to each other requires that the husband and or the the wife is receiving attention from other proper places, so they have something to bring home to give to the other person. So and then if God isn't there, then there's not a great power source of drawing from. Right. I mean, it's just it's amazing. See, we're made for relationship. Yeah. And if we're not relationship, then we need Yes. And if we're not in relationship, we're not in life, and our children wind up being, frankly, starved. Now they will become self sufficient automatons. They can become Successful. Successful, robotically fulfilled. They can do all the right things. And yet somewhere inside of them, they're asking themselves I met a guy today who said, my family was great. He's 20 year 28 year old addict. I mean, alcohol, drugs. It's like, I can't live what they keep telling me, and they seem so happy. I said, you mean all those people you're describing to me, I happen to know, all of them are addicts, I said to him. And he goes, I know. I'm like, you know? And he's I said, but you don't believe it. He said, but they tell me they're happy. And they're not drinking addicts. They're control addicts and happy addicts and food addicts and even religious addicts. They're normal addicts. Yeah. And he compares his life and goes, I'm not like this. Something's wrong with me because I'm miserable. I can't be happy. And he has great emotional depth, but he's so ashamed of it because it makes him needy. It makes him ask other questions they don't ever ask themselves or let them know. Let him know they're asking.

This is Stephen James, the executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, anxiety, depression, or burnout, please reach out to the Center for Professional Excellence for help. For more than twenty years, CVE's long term residential treatment programs have been helping professional men recover their lives, marriages, and families. To find out more, visit cpenashville.com.