Performance vs Presence

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they are made to be so they can do what they're made to do. Hey, Chip. Hey, Stephen. Oh, man. I love doing these podcasts with you. They're so they really are fun. Fun. Like, they're actually very inspiring to me. I'm glad. And I like I like I like playing with you too. It's like kids we get to play together. You're inspiring to me. Oh, thank you so much. Not being serious. Really? Yes. Oh, I don't really like taking compliments that well. Well, you've handed them off to me, and I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you. That's kinda the way we do it. Like, I compliment you and you're involved. In fact, you're you're you're extraordinarily gifted. Thank you. You,

Phil Herndon, you guys are so brilliant. It's just it's amazing to me. Thank you. And that's and that and that's so great because, like, I need your brilliance because, like, we've talked about before even last time we did a podcast. There's so many things that are so obvious to me I can't see. Oh, no. And then when they like, I turn and, like, I'm looking right through them instead of at them. Like So what what makes that so hard to take a compliment? Toxic shame. I mean, it's Charlie Brown syndrome. If anybody's old enough to remember Charlie Brown. I love Charlie Brown. Oh, do you remember Lucy? She was so mean. Lucy's the psychiatrist for a nickel. She'll tell you about yourself. And she'll pull the football out from under you and then shame you for trying hard. Yeah. It's like, come on, Charlie Brown. Kick the football. Let's join. Let's connect. Let's be together. Let's have some fun. Hey. You're on the team. And then Come on, Chuck. Move the football. Yeah. Come on, Chuck. Kick the football. And I think that's the the the the fear of taking a compliment is the same fear we have about celebrating, the fear we have about being delighted in. It's the idea that we're being tricked Mhmm. Or fooled, which means that, really, we're that afraid of what we need most. And because it matters so much, we're never gonna be fooled again by being set up to believe it and having it Like, I've wanted it before and went for it and got embarrassed with it. Yeah. You you know what? A lot of times in, like, the marital therapy work I do, and have done, there's this question, I've I've asked and not honestly. I'll start a lot of times times with the wives. And and I will I will ask them, like, what did you used to dream? Or what did you desire before you got married? What did you hope? And I've had, you know, different responses to it, but, like, I remember one woman saying, don't do this. Don't I'm not no. Don't bring this up. Don't do this to me. I'm saying, what are you what are you talking about? About? So don't wake me up to what I once believed because that is not what has happened. It's not what it's like. Don't make me wanna go. Don't don't take me to a place of believing and trusting and hoping in delight and in compliments and affirmation that I have a safe place to go to, a home to be in, and someone to be with me in it. It's just just don't do that to me. So when I say you're brilliant, I really mean it. It's hard to me. It's like, don't do it. Oh, yes. Like, stay don't I feel it. Like, don't do that to me. It's too good. I want that too much. I know. And and so do I. I don't want it at all. Yeah. Yeah. Listen. I love being delighted in, and I love even having a place where I can go to grieve when life is absolutely ripped, from what I wanted it to be or when just things are happening like I don't like. I remember I ran the Peachtree, years and years ago. The, you know, the 10 The marathon or 10 k? No. The 10 k. Oh, good. Wait wait a minute. That was a long way for even me. I had not run more than two miles because of my hit in years, and somebody gave me a a number. So I okay. Let's go. I want I I wanna run the Peachtree. And I started running. This is gonna this I hate not being able to see what people are hearing, but to their faces. But but I started because it's embarrassing, but I started running. And my my goal was just to run it and not stop. So just run six miles and just don't stop. So it it didn't matter how fast, how slow it went. You've got so much willpower that you probably could do it. I did. Right. But it's but it was just it was just yes. But anyway, okay. I'm getting embarrassed. But I'm telling you, I was within the first mile, and I did not I had never run a road race that was, like, people. Like people were there. People were lining the sidewalks with placards and costumes and it was a giant celebration. And I remember running with whatever 10,020. I don't even know how many people. But there were placards saying, you can do it. Come on. Run. Like, they were all celebrating all of us runners, and I took it like

they were wanting me to succeed. Mhmm. And I this is You believed it. I start crying. Steve, I was running and I started crying. Wow. I started crying because this was like, you're celebrating me. Like, you want me to succeed. You want me to make it the whole way. You want my goal to work. You want my dreams to come true. Like, I'm in. And I swear their celebration, was my completion. Wow. And I finished. And Tennyson and William, they were young there and, like, they, like, they were there, you know you know, I was glad I could finish and they knew I finished. But after I was over, I ran six miles. It was hot. And I went up to this chain link fence, and I I just there's a there's a rest station. I just hooked my fingers like claws on the fence just standing there. And then I started trying to walk, and I was realized I was taking my hands and holding on the fence, going down the fence like claws. And a woman came and said, sir, are you okay? I said, yeah. I'm fine. She said, I think you need to come with me. To the medical tent. They took me to the medical tent. And because I was like About to die. I was about to die. I was but then it even got better. It's like they gave me free Gatorade, and they put wet towels on my head. I was like, oh, this is even great too. I could start crying about that. Do it again? Yeah. They cared about me from beginning to end. And and I'm telling you something else too. You know, Sonya and I and and Dennis and William, they were young. We would go to Disney World. And I'm telling you, I went to Disney World to get it over with because, look, just as one of these things that Sonya told me is one of the rituals or, you know If you're a if you're a middle class white family in America, you gotta take your boys to Disney World. Well, I'm telling you, if you're a middle class family in America, I mean, because we're all down there, because it is for everyone. It really is. And and and I remember, going in the first time, I got more out of it than they did. I found a safe place. It was amazing. Disney was so brilliant to provide a safe place for people where things around them were taken care of. So the second time we went, because I wanted to go back. Okay. I didn't care where the tennis and the way he wanted. I wanted to go. I'm going to Disney World. Yeah. And we pulled into the, the station before we went up to the resort. And there's a guard, a security, you know, that you have to check your names. And I planned to be there, like, at six, and we got there, like, 11:30, and I thought there might be rules or something. Like, well, it's 11:30, sir. You know? So you check at six? Tomorrow. Yeah. I see. And I remember pulling up security gate and came out and said, what's the dot? We're here. And it's like, yeah. I said, we're late. You know, like like, I was in trouble or something. And which is a child sort of a child attitude from a grown man. I mean, doing grown man work. Yeah. Okay? Like, hey. I wasn't crying long in this in the beech tree just a little bit. You know? I ran six miles. That's not the point. The thing I remember is not finishing the race that was being celebrated, which encouraged me to finish the race. Yeah. So I was amazed. But he said, well, he he he after he checked us in, he said, welcome home. And I You started crying? I did. I pulled away, and I started crying. Not hard. Yeah. Okay. So if anybody's you know, but I just Judging you. Anybody's judging you by crying to be in the world. I started crying because we're all made to find a place going home. Yeah. And, and the home is a safe place where we don't have to be watch of all the bad things that can happen because some good things can happen. So that's a long way to talk about what makes us so scared of compliments. It's that they we so want them, so hunger for them to live in celebration that it makes us cry.

It's like I really wanna matter to you. But if I do, you can take that away from me. Mhmm. So it's a lot better, isn't it, to not matter or to matter only based upon how we could control through our performance. A lot safer. Yeah. Yeah. Because most kids are taught that they kids are taught four rules, that, make them performers, over being present. They're taught that they make people feel things. They're taught that they make people in moods. You know, I make you in a bad what do I do to make you in a bad mood, mommy? They make people behave in certain ways. Look what you made me do. I'm doing this to you because what you made me do. And children wind up thinking they can read minds. So we think that if we can make people feel certain ways, make people's moods good, make people act in ways that that are kind, and then think the thoughts they're thinking before they find out, you know, but we make people think certain things about us that we make ourselves say. We're literally taught performing the performing arts. Acting. Controlling people. It's grandiosity. So that's the child's thought processes without the big life experience. This is what I have to do to be safe. So safety and performance get tied together. The very least, it makes me responsible for you. At the most, it makes me your god. Yeah. Absolutely. And then being celebrated means you're gonna let down. Like, no. I'm loving you. You're not gonna perform for me. No. I'm loving you as you are. You're not gonna perform for me. It's like, no. No. No. I'm not trusting that I don't have to work for you. Yeah. I can't trust that. Because if I trust that in your line, I don't have anywhere to go.

Isn't that something? Do you believe what I'm saying? I mean I do believe. I begin I'm also experiencing. I mean, just in beginning of the podcast when Yeah. You affirmed me. Like Yeah. I loved it, and it scared me. So guess what happens when you get married? If those four grandiose, misguided, mistaken, lying beliefs are continuing to be lit, When you get married You had two people trying to control each other. Absolutely. And figure each other out. And blame each other. And blame each other. I'm telling you, the number of times I walked in my house, Sonia's in a mood, and it's not the thrilled, oh. It's not the good mood. It's not the good mood. I look at her face, like, and and inside, I'm going, uh-oh. And I go, hey, fake. Hey, sweetheart. How you doing? Hey. What's going on? Are you in a Faking like you care. Yeah. Faking like I care when, actually, I'm just scared. And I do care. You have to I've never done that, Chuck. I don't know. I know you wouldn't, and I don't know anybody can relate to that. But I I walk in and and she starts telling me a story that has nothing to do with me about something that happened that day. If you quit listening I quit. I'm done. It's like, okay. It's not about me. I'll be on my way. Like Oh, so she Like, so there's that fear, fear that dominates Yeah. That based upon those goals right now. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But then when when we can get past those beliefs that your feelings are yours and mine are mine, and you and I can share them, but not take responsibility for them, our lives can be different. Because see, when Sonia has feelings, she she said before, like, you just don't let me feel. I'm like, it hit me finally. I don't think of you as having feelings. I think of you as making decisions. That your moods and your feelings equal decisions, and those decisions are bad outcomes for me. Yeah. Because if we don't regulate the big people's feelings when we're little, the outcomes are bad for us. Yeah. Like like, even the word or the idea that a parent is disappointed in a child, think about what that communicates. I'm disappointed in you. The facial structure says you no longer have an appointment. Disappointment means I'm looking at my list, and you're not on it. The door is not open to you. Excuse me. No. You don't have an appointment. In fact, you're in the wrong place. Why don't you go somewhere else? Because, I don't want you here. Mhmm. You're fired. Mhmm. You're unemployed. Mhmm. So that's scary because a child doesn't know anywhere else to go. Big people, they go get other jobs. Big people go to other cities. Big people have geographical cures. Even people who are addicts had the geographical cure that there's some place I could go to escape where I am. Right. But children got no place to go except inside to hide. Yeah. Or, you know, act out too, but still they're hiding inside. So their their needs And we all experience Absolutely. And their needs become less important. Their feelings become disregarded. And it's the birthplace

of So now every parent listening to this podcast right now is stop thinking about themselves as a child, and they start trying to figure out how they can what they can do to fix their relationship with their own child. And and you know what? That's a that is a very responsible attitude to take, except for the figuring and the fixing, which is that parent using their old belief system when they were children to now apply it to their children, which they've already probably done it to. We all have. Absolutely. So guess what? The great gift of life is our capacity to seek forgiveness. I mean, the best a human being will ever do is to acknowledge limitation and then to acknowledge what we what we do to avoid facing we're limited and which creates harm to each other and say I'm sorry. I mean, to actually And really mean it. And really mean it. Not I'm sorry, but or I'm sorry, now are we good, but to regret,

the actions. I mean, there I gotta see how my controlling behavior really does affect you Oh. And keeps us from each other. Look, Steve, you know, my my my sons are older, and I love them deeply. And as they've grown, I've grown. And I looking at my life and I'm willing to do it without making up a story about, oh, here's this way to this way and that way to that way. This is good and this is bad. It's just that I love them greatly, and therefore, I have regret because I love them. That regret is I wish I had done some things. I wish some other things had been done differently, which leads me to a place of sorrow, which leads me to a place place of, like, hey, look, I wanna tell y'all guys something. I'm really sorry I did not do this. Or I'm sorry I said that. I need you to keep telling me who you are so I can keep knowing you even if it leads me to regret because I love love you enough to be willing to have regret. Yeah. You know, so I'm telling you because we're all gonna harm each other. We're all going to harm each other. Love keeps no record of wrongs because it gets the record cleaned, not because it forgets that it happened. Do you see? Yeah. So It doesn't store resentment. Yeah. Love doesn't store resentment, nor love seeks forgiveness. No. And and and Tennyson and William had told me some things I really didn't know that I had done. But when they told me, I'm like, I did do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you sure you sure you want your mama that but, yeah, I did that.

Thank you. It's kinda heavy, but Is it? Well, it is, but it's also really hopeful. But do you know what That I don't have to stay in cycles of Yeah. That what's heavy Steve, I I know I know, I can be, like, intense. I know that I can be really in it. Really in it, and it's because I know the urgency of freedom. I'm not trying to drive a person into a corner. I'm inviting person into, an escape route, a bridge. You know? It's like, we don't have to live the way we were trained to live. We can live the way we were created to live. And, yeah, of course, we all harm each other, but the freedom is that we can seek forgiveness. The big deal. That's heavy. Well, tough. Do you know? It's either living in isolation from each other and trying to manipulate each other or admitting our need of each other and take telling the truth about the sorrow we have with each other. That sorrow leads to gladness. The healing leads to courage. I mean Yeah. Okay. What's cool is that heavy. Well, sorrow Once I mean, she know. That's you don't really mean you're sorry. You mean, like, I'm not gonna stop. No. It means exactly. It means, like, you know what? It's heavy. I'm sorry that you wanna run away from the conditions of life. And guess what? Your children are hoping you can stand up in them. So get up and stand up. I mean, stay in it. Yeah. Do you know? And so one of the ways that it stays that it all appears. Right? Practice staying in in it is to accept compliments.

Yeah. You know? Like, that's like a small way of, like Yeah. When someone says something nice about you, you say thank you. And I'm telling you, well, I remember William William said to me, dad, you know what? Here's something that you really got a problem with. I'm like, oh, no. What? Because I'm ready to hear it. You know, I'm ready. He said, you won't face how great you are. Oh, god. You won't face it. And he's kinda like, you won't face how great you are. You're a great man. I'm like, what's up here? What are you doing? What are you trying to get? You some money? Yeah. And Sonia Sonia Sonia really likes me. I mean You sound surprised. Well, it's always a surprise. And she, like, she has lived with me a long time, and she thinks that I'm, like, really, really, like, courageous, and she thinks that I'm, like, really smart. Like, she loves

you. So you'll I'm gonna practice saying thank you. And you're gonna practice Not being heavy? Believing believing that your wife loves you deeply. Yeah. You're like staying in it. Absolutely. Not trying to get out of it. Yeah. Okay. Which which speaks to, doesn't it? That it takes us to our neediness place. Doesn't it? It takes us to what we most need, which takes us to intimacy. Yep. Which takes us to intimacy. Yep. Which being known, which takes us to the good life in a tragic place. Intimacy takes us to the good life in a tragic place. This is Stephen James, the executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, anxiety, depression, or burnout, please reach out to the Center for Professional Excellence for Health. For more than twenty years, CVE's long term residential treatment programs have been helping professional men recover their lives, marriages, and families. To find out more, visit cpenashville.com.