Full Life Is In The Pain, Part 1

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they are made to be so they can do what they're made to do. Chip, good afternoon. Hi, Phil. Here we are back here in our little room. Back to CPE, did everything this morning. We've been doing it for a long time. Yeah. And we call this the podcast room, which is really an office that's empty. And, I I made some bookshelves and brought in I got a ton of books from home. Mhmm. And we've got these posters that have been developed over the years and some of the old posters and an American flag to, you know, just and some old chairs. So it's a pretty cool place. Really? It's pretty cool. Looks like us. Because it's linked to a a treehouse. It looks like

us. We, this is our honestly, something we've been talking about for a long time, years Mhmm. To be able to do this. And, to be able to do it kind of in our little place is Yeah. Extra special to me for sure. Yeah. So I surrounded all the stuff, like you mentioned, on the wall, on the books, you know Old table made out of table. Yeah. Or palettes. Coffee cup coffee cup sitting on it. Mhmm. Extra stuff. Mhmm. It's really a cool place to do this. And, anybody's missed a CP, I think, will know exactly what we're talking about. Other people see come in here and think they're not finished. And it's like, well, I don't know. This we probably got it cool. Like us. We got it cool already. You know, we we Oh, no. It's finished. Like us. I don't saw this. I said I said I said, I don't want you to see it because you're, like, improve it. And that's, like, I don't want it improved.

So we're back here in the back of our place. And, we've been doing this this blogs and podcasts and Mhmm. Training, all kinds of really neat stuff that years ago, eleven, twelve years ago, we talked about not necessarily in theory, but there wasn't a whole lot of legs on it. Like, it was just kinda some great ideas and some, actually, some of these very pieces of paper on the wall here Yeah. On your kitchen table Yeah. Just talking about stuff. And Yeah. Here we are Yeah. Doing it. And, you've been writing some blogs, you know, just how many now? No idea. Okay. Like, 500? Yeah. 500. Great. 500 blog. 10,000. About 28,000. Why? So of all those A lot of people don't know about them. Of all those 82,000 you've written, the last couple have had to do with, what on the surface Yeah. Like, wow. What a what a wonderful subject, grief.

Yeah. But as you've written in both of those And I hate writing about that. You hate writing about that? I hate writing about it because, I mean, who wants to read something they don't wanna have? I mean, it's just it's kinda difficult topic and, you know, it's like, you know you know, bad news bears in the room again, you know. So anyway, here I am. Yeah. Frankly, I love them. Just, you know, we we have those same kind of bats in our garage baseball player Mhmm. Careers over, so to speak. And he's yeah. And piled up there. And I got a bucket of baseballs I'll probably never touch again, but they're still there. Yeah. Right? He's in college now. But Yeah. So you're right about route that in one of the blogs about just the grief around, things ending even though new things are beginning and Mhmm. That last line, you know, you have room for them and all the meanings behind that. Then another one behind that one just around, you know, the silliness in quotes Yeah. Of, grown man Williams, you know, big old thing and Uh-huh. You know, big old William being gone forty eight whole hours. From college? College? Yeah. Y'all are laughing and crying at the same time. So talk about that a little bit. Like, the last couple of blogs have been this subject, like I said, that people go, oh, I don't wanna read about that, but but we really do. Mhmm.

You know, you know, and I'll get to that. I promise you. But, you know, we talk about grief comes from dreams. Okay? If you care about something and you're living on this earth, most of the time, it's not not gonna turn out exactly like we wish it would. And if it does turn out like we wish it would, we wish we could keep it longer than we can. I mean, just it's just, you know, gratitude comes from living well and all those kinds of things. But we go back. You and I have been doing CPE together, Center for Professional Excellence together since 2005. And then you became the clinical director in 2006. Mhmm. And you're brought here leaving a satisfied life Very much. For a life that has probably brought you more pain than you had there. In fact, you talk about I gave up this, I gave up this, I gave up that. And all those different things were layers of security. You already had it made. I mean, on some level, you could keep growing, but also if you wanted to, you could coast a little bit because you had a lot of stuff in the bag, so to speak. You know? And then you decided that you were gonna follow something that was worth risking even though you didn't know it was gonna cost you so much. You know, you had a picture. This is good. Well, that'd be better. Mhmm. Right. If I had known then what I know now Yeah. You may like, because you you know, last time we did a podcast, I mean, you you talked about you got here and, like, found out you didn't have a job. I mean, it was like, it was crazy. And you're a man that gets a job done and you don't mind working. I mean, you you wanna work. Work. Mhmm. The alternative to you is like some form of purgatory. But you came here because a mission statement that, you wanted to give your life as I'm doing myself to to helping people see who they're made to be so they can do what they're made to do. Do you agree with that? Oh, yeah. That's the mission statement. It's like and that's what I'm willing to look foolish about. That's what I'm willing to talk about things that maybe people don't wanna hear. Oh, sometimes willing to be made fun of even that, for, you know, helping people see who they're made to be so they can do what they're made to do, which means that you're made a certain way and then talking about it and just, you know, that you're made to feel, you're made to need, you're made to desire, you're made to long, you're made to hope. And that neediness is the key that opens up the full life, which means vulnerability Mhmm. Is a plus when actually when we're little and we get pinned down enough times, vulnerability is not the the wonderful gift. It is the the hated, despised result of, what we call, like, the the effective vulnerability is is getting harmed. Yeah. So I'm covered up. Not to do it again. Yeah. Yeah. So we become experts at hiding now instead of crying out. And I'm I'm want us to come to a place of being able to cry out again. Because I believe that, you know, going back to the oldest story, the beginning of the Old Testament, you know, they had an opportunity to cry out or hide out. And the deceiver said, are you so sure that your communication and vulnerability is the way to go? Mhmm. You're so sure that God is God. Mhmm. Is can be trusted. Instead of crying out, hey, God, you know, come on in here. We gotta talk. They were like, well, maybe it's not so true. So they left their hearts, went to their heads, and I think we've had a lot of that same continuing Mhmm. Problem ever since. You know? Yeah. Because when I enter into a circumstance, like, I watch with my head to see if my heart can be safe. You know? Sure. And you and I together, when you came here, I was more alone in the process of doing what I'm doing now more than ever before. I was more alone than I even realized, because I'd already gone. I mean, I was already gone into this process, but I I couldn't do it by myself. And then when you came in and you picked up this dream and said, I'm in with this dream. I'm in with this mission. It was an extraordinary, comfort and a growing confidence over time, to the point where we're doing these podcasts. Mhmm. You know? Mhmm. And it's it's scary to do a podcast because the thoughts are outside of of being able to see who's listening to them or even worse, nobody's

listening. So Exactly. But we gotta do it. Yeah. We've got to do it. True. And that's where, compelled comes in, I think. So but in spite of what I dream, it's never gonna reach fully Mhmm. Into as as far as I'd like for it to go. I want I want there to be 3,000,000 people who sort of take on the mantle of this, live fully, love deeply, lead well. That's 1% of the population of The United States. And taking on the mantle means living that way Yeah. Not to to The life of the heart, to to come back to our senses. Saint Paul says, I pray that the eyes of your heart will be enlightened. And I don't mean this as a religious reference and this go go live this way religiously. I'm talking about he's praying that the that the eyes of our hearts will be enlightened. That we'll see through the eyes of our hearts having received mercy, knowing what it is to live as a human being, finding out how we're all alike, we're all in need of the same things that we open up in our vulnerability again in spite of how non commonsensical it is Mhmm. But how we're made for it and how much sense it makes when we do it. And he says, so so we will see through the eyes of our hearts, so we will know the hope, the glory, and the power. You know, the hope that we're made to have that wasn't foolish in the beginning. That the the glorious life of gratitude. And really the power that comes from passion because I'm willing to be in pain, for something that matters more than pain. Mhmm. And, I think God blesses that return to to the dreaming. But it cost us something, you know. For sure. And those two blogs that that I wrote about, you know, I had room for the bats, so much response from people would say, you know, I got I got it. I got it. And as a dad, as a mom, and they were saying stuff like, it wasn't bats. For us, it was horses Yeah. And soccer balls. And, like, they got it wasn't about the bats. Right. It was about the love and the willingness and the memories and so on. And so one of the messages that I wanna continue to communicate is painful as life is, the full life is in the pain. I mean, that we're created to live fully. I mean, you know, you and I we say it all the time, you know, the sentence is you and I are our emotional spiritual creature creatures created do one thing in life, it's live fully. But we can't live fully unless we're living fully in relationship with ourselves, head to heart, others' hearts, and God. And so living fully means living between one and ten. That's the beginning and the end. I mean, on a continuum. We we hunger to celebrate, but we're gonna have to grieve. So how well you grieve, how well you celebrate, how well you celebrate will also mark how well you grieve. So one and ten between one and ten is life. So it's not like I'm at a two. I better work real hard to get to 10 for the reward. Yes. No. It's like facing life on life's terms. Yes. And if we're gonna face life on life's terms, god's a great question. If we're gonna face life on life's terms, we've got got to feel what life is like because we're emotional spiritual creatures. Then we need to be able to tell the truth about the emotional experience of our lives. And I don't mean reactions to feelings. Mhmm. I mean the feelings themselves. Universal language. Because when a person talks about sadness and their face and their hearts match that experience, anyone who's alive as a human being and not covered in a mask relates to that experience. They can be from Russia or, Rutgers. I mean, I mean, it doesn't make any difference what nationality you are. So, you know, living between one and 10 is where we're made to live. But so if you wanna live fully, you're gonna dream, you're gonna wish, you're gonna walk, you're gonna hope, you're gonna desire, you're gonna long, you're gonna yearn, you're gonna hunger, you're gonna thirst, you're gonna need, and all those are vulnerable experiences. Mhmm. And I remember when just in that blog. I mean, all the different things is in the blog, but all the different things we did as a family with, them growing up. You remember you and Luke? Mhmm. Gosh. All these other families. Yeah. Or even if people read that blog and they didn't get to have a family. Right. Or the child died before they even got to finish the memories. Or, you know, on and on and on and on and on. But I was taking account of my life just cleaning up the garage. Just the mundane. Cleaning out the garage. Cleaning up the garage. You know, as soon as we clean it up, we'd pile it up. Just, you know, yours is perfect. Mine's up, you know. The way it is. Yeah. Just the way it is. But like I said, I found those bats, and I was just throwing stuff away kinda wholesale. And, I I picked up the bats and, just started remembering. And it just I mean, the sounds, the sights, the touch, the feel, the times, the losses in both my sons' hearts were broken related to baseball. Yeah. And and bonded related to baseball. But but they it didn't have to be a bond. It didn't have to be a breaking because they could have denied it both and they didn't. And I think they didn't because we were a family that, frankly, as poorly as I did it, it's like, oh, we're doing between one and ten. Yes. It's like, I'm not shutting this thing down. I already know what it is. It's like to be shut down. Even if it's a reaction to it. But So when y'all were at a two, a a collective two Yeah. That doesn't mean you're doing really, really bad. Better hurry and get to ten. Y'all are at a two because you're grieving like crazy. Yeah. Heartbreak or disappointment. Yeah. I cleaned those bats up, and it's like, I was crying. Like, not just tearful. Like, god, I wish I could have it back. And I'm so glad I got to do it. And, man, it is really over. You know? Yeah. And I wiped the bats down, kinda shined them up, and put them on a shelf, and grateful for it. But my gratitude and those memories and the thankfulness and the sweating and then us being on the baseball field and remember seeing their faces, their eyes, it brought me to regrets. Like, god, I wish I hadn't done that. Mhmm. And then at the same time, it's like it's over. But I could not have had that gratitude of remembering

without also being willing to face the loss of it being gone. That's what I was thinking about. Yeah. You're you're like, this story, if someone just kinda read these words, I would go, wow. Chip in his garage. Regret, tears Yeah. Memories, like, yikes. I don't want that. Yeah. Grow up. But Right. The other side of that Yes. Walking through that Mhmm. Is gratitude part. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know what? My life, my sons, my Mhmm. Loves are worth gratitude that which is naked celebration, you know, and worth grief, the outpouring of being known from the inside out for grief. And the alternative, Phil, so many people and this was my credo in the past was to be really, honestly, be strong in mind, body, and spirit. That was my it was like a religion to me. Yeah. Then I thought it was blessed by God, that God called me, you know, to be strong. And and and notice when I said strong in body, mind, and spirit, do you hear what I didn't include? I didn't even know the word heart Heart. Wasn't part of it. It's like, that Ted wasn't even on the map. I think that's why even to this day, I still because I know the difference so deeply, I think I'm so grateful for the rest of the story so much that the heart Mhmm. It takes primacy because I did the other. But but my goal was, practicing some form of control, you know, which like stoicism, strength, not let life get to you, don't get overly attached, or be the one who does the caring, not the one who needs to be cared about.

Or you follow? Yeah. A little bit like, We Tell. I get probably every guy walks in the door. Mhmm. You know, three there are three great, solutions. Mhmm. Intellect, willpower, morality. Yeah. You said mind, body, spirit. Yeah. Somehow, I know that I can be smart enough to get through this, tough enough. It's almost the same type thing. Uh-huh. Like, we can't be smart enough, tough enough, or good enough to beat life. Yes. Get through it. Yeah. It's there's something else called heart. Yeah. And, you know, I I thought, in the past that, you know and I think we've all been trained like this. We say, well well, good things will happen to good people. We get a little older and found, like, don't matter how good I am. Yeah. Bad things keep happening. I go, why do bad things happen to good people that's not fair? And turns out that life's happening to everybody whether you're good or bad is happening. And then it gets worse because you say, you know, there's just not enough bad stuff that happens to bad people. And they're gonna get there. And then then then that that Psalm you talk about before Psalm 73, it says, all these good things are happening to bad people. It's like, that's bull, you know. It's like Oh, yeah. But the truth is, it's like those four forms of thinking, whether you weave them together or separate them when you're infant in growth with life, none of them are true. It's not true. The truth is good things happen to people who are known. And my past philosophy, be strong in body, mind, and spirit Mhmm. Was all about not being known. I mean, the whole thing. I did not know I was in denial. I did not know that I was dissociated from my very being. I didn't know that I was separate from my make. I didn't know. I did not know. True. I mean, I practice an ignorance disorder to the point of, like, you know, psychosis. You know? It it mean ignoring myself. No. No. Like and I know you're very familiar with the question. A severe ignorance disorder. Not just because where you're from. No. It doesn't help any, but you're totally unreal. And all you wanna do is get back there, really? He said, yeah. Yeah. So when I was practicing that, I was really didn't realize it, but I was trying to make my life I was control. Mhmm. Control addict. I think that's the where we all begin. If we hatred hate vulnerability, unable to live in vulnerability, if we don't know what to do with vulnerability, we practice control. Mhmm. And whatever keeps us in control, we're squeezing our lives. Instead of living between one and ten, we live between five and five. Yeah. That's one that people, you know, feedback we got. And and the first time you read it, you go between five and five. Yeah. Ain't nothing between five and five. Exactly. Which is kinda the point. Right? Yeah. So you know those two connecting doors between hotel rooms? Yeah. That's between five and five. I remember seeing the movie Angels in the Outfield years ago. I think it was Angels in the Outfield, I believe. But but the the one of the coaches, assistant coach gets stuck between the two connecting doors. And he's, like, slammed between a five inch life, you know, and he's stuck. He's locked locked in. And he's going, a little Little help. And it's like, I was literally and did. I squeezed my life between a place of five and five. But the problem is, how do I keep everybody away from me? I gotta develop a false self. That false self develops out of fear. Like, what do I have to do to make that person be okay with me? What do I have to do to please that person? What do I have to do to to perform to get them to care about me? Or what do I have to do to keep them away from me? What do I have to do to keep them from humiliating me? What do I have to do? You know, as you as you use those examples, your eyes are getting wider like anxiety anxiety anxiety. They're not the anxiety

of living that way. Mhmm. And for vagrantism disorder, we can do it every day. Absolutely. Hypervigilant. Don't even Phil, don't even know we're doing. That's what I'm saying. I was living on quelling anxiety rooted in the trigger of anxiety. So I was spending my life trying to get it over with looking for a life. And that's crazy. It's crazy. But it makes complete sense to those of us who go, I will never be vulnerable again. And they forgot we said it. Even forgot we committed to that philosophy. So if you're squeezed between five and five, what you really got is the very thing that's made to protect you will destroy you. It's suffocation. What's between five and five is zero. It's called no life. This is Stephen James, the executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sometimes in life, we get stuck or blocked or reach an impasse. At times like these, an intensive short term therapy could help you overcome what's keeping you from the growth and changes you desire. At Sage Hill Counseling, we offer therapeutic incentives to help couples gain new momentum in their recovery process. If you wanna find out more, please visit sagehillcounseling.com.