Transition

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they are made to be so they can do what they're made to do. Hey, Chip. Hey, Phil. Again. Hey, Phil. Alright, little place. Yeah. I wanna kinda jump right in. Last time, we talked about we spent the entire time just talking about hope. Yeah. Some stories and some you know, just how much a part of how we're made, how God has made us, has to do with hope. And so, today, kinda kinda kinda the same thing. Right? Like, you know, last time this this sentence that we can become prisoners of hope rather than being liberated to hope. Right? So we and so we live in this world if if, you know, it's kind of an old saying that that the only thing we can really count on not changing is change. Yeah. That transition and change, all that stuff. So if you would, just talk a little bit about that, like hope in transition. Yeah. Well,

life is literally a series of transitions in in so many ways. I mean, every single day is a series of events that occur. Every single day, there is a series of changes that occur. I mean, sunset, sundown, sun up I mean, sunset, sundown, same name. So but sun sunset, sun up. Mhmm. Rain, no rain, anticipation, wishing, hoping, and so on. But it's like life is going to happen on life's terms no matter what our demands or, even expectations are. So we have to accept how we're made first because that's what we bring into the events and the transitions of life. We bring how we're made into the things that are happening outside of us. Make sense? Oh, yeah. So one of the characteristics that we bring to life is hope. And for every transition that occurs, for every event that occurs, we're hoping that something good will happen, or we're hoping that something not that bad will happen, or we're hoping that it will go better or go, you know, go better than we wish or turn out great or hope disaster doesn't occur. But for every of those transitions, we're bringing hope to it. If we're not good at facing and accepting hope and by the way, acceptance is a willingness to press on in spite of inevitable loss. You know, we talked about how acceptance is, you know, it's not okay, but it's okay Mhmm. That it's not okay Yes. And that's okay. Well, you know, that people get that intuitively, but it's like more bad poetry or stupid, you know. But I mean, courage in the face of inevitable loss is what acceptance is. And every single day is a series of transitions. And how good we are at hoping is how good we are gonna be at handling those transitions. People who are prisoners of hope are always trying to control life so that their hope is under control. So it doesn't get away from them. They don't wind up in grief and or more disappointment. But I remember my brother was so good. I remember one day I called him. He was in the the big construction world. I'm talking about earth movers, curb and gutter machines, infrastructure. And in the world outdoors, digging holes, construction demands, bursts, hydraulic fluid goes everywhere, a man doesn't show up, somebody gets hurt, you dig a hole, it floods. Somebody else is expecting you on Thursday, but Thursday's already come and gone and and then just, like, do I tell them it's next Thursday? I meant next Thursday, but it's like I can't get to it all. And then, you know, accounts receivable, they don't come in on time and then the cannot pay the payroll and then I mean, just I I said, Phil, what what what happens to you every single day you walk into your day? You know something's gonna break. I said, how in the world do you, do that? He said, Pepto Bismol. But I mean, he was playing. Yeah. But he he said it's just he said he just knows that it's part of it. So he's has courage in the face of inevitable loss. A real great character characteristic of his, and one that he would years later need greatly. Mhmm. Because the world construction is an up and down experience, you know. So it's amazing how often some things we don't recognize to be beautiful parts of our character come from our willingness to hope. And we won't see what that beautiful parts of our character are developing because it so often happens that we hope in spite of loss. Mhmm. And we have the courage to keep hoping in spite of loss. Even though when it seems foolish, we don't resign ourselves to be prisoners of hope only. Though we're careful and scared and insulting to ourselves, we still keep keep hoping. Mhmm. That's what I think allows us to to move into transitions, to continue to have courage in the in the inevitable face of loss, to have acceptance. Not something we wish to have. But you know, Phil, I think ultimately, hope isn't just the capacity to continue on in spite of loss. It's the, really and truly the ability to truly believe we're gonna win.

I think The ability to truly believe we're going to win. Yes. Beat up for sure. Transitions. Scarred up for sure. Absolutely. I remember a friend of mine said that, look, you know, so many people, you know, will get you're gonna get a fights in your life. I mean, metaphorically or literally. And he said, you know what? Everyone who gets in a fight really hopes that they won't get hit. But see, if you're gonna fight, you're gonna get hit. Mhmm. He said, one thing for sure, if you get hit, it almost certainly is going to hurt. Right. So preparing to win is hoping with the recognition that that hope is gonna propel you into living life on life's terms, and we are going to get really hurt. Mhmm. That's why this hope requires that we have to be able to deal with fear. Because when you hope you're out of control. For sure. Right. And which means that you're you're facing the transitions. People who are prisoners of hope, they're trying to make life fit into their scenario

of having life the way they demand it to occur so they won't have to feel the feelings that required by life. Right? Yeah. In in a lot of ways, though, Chip, that people will say, yeah. That's what winning is. Life going my way. Me ending up on top. Me not having to deal with these feelings. Me, you know, coming out on top of the deal or whatever. So what do you mean kinda more so? What do you mean, like, we win? Yeah. You know what? I think that, that that the capacity to keep heart in the midst of life's vicissitudes, which I think means, ups and downs, really. Vicitudes, don't it? No idea. I got that. I'm nodding like a bottle neck. Okay. I For sure. Yeah. I believe we'll go go with vicitus. This. Are you the, top speller in all of, all Cobb County. All Cobb County. So but, yeah, it's, people who hope and are willing to take the risk of hoping and willing to risk the hope being known, they're gonna have ups and downs. They're gonna have grief and losses. They're gonna have joys and and victories and celebrations. Mhmm. They're going to learn how to live life on life's terms, and that's the win. Mhmm. In fact, you mentioned just a little while ago, well, actually, I last time we did a podcast, you mentioned something I said to you a long time ago. I said, you're better with one arm tied behind your back than most men I've ever known. Go ahead and untie your other arm and and go at it, Phil. Mhmm. You don't have to hold back because you were holding back. Yeah. You know, the hope because you could wind up having a repeat of your past Oh, god. Or a new future. Mhmm. And, you just when you said that last week, you reminded me of Teddy Roosevelt's thing about, really, it's a definition of somebody who wins. It's not whether or not you have the victory. It's whether or not you show up in the arena. Yeah. And only people who are liberated to hope truly show up in the arena. Not anticipating losing, but they're willing to win by being fully present in life on life's terms. Yeah. Those are the people who we turn to. Those are the people we're made to be like. And those are the people who keep heart. And I I know we're we're gonna be putting out an ebook that's literally called keeping heart Mhmm. Or keep heart because I was doing a talk somewhere and I said something that one of the conditions, like, we're we're we're made to keep heart. And somebody asked me, like, what do you mean keep heart? And I gave a little simple definition. It really means, you know, to to stay in it. Mhmm. Just to stay involved in what you care about regardless of what comes. But that little question turned into is turned into an 80 page ebook. So well, we'll be putting that out pretty soon. But You know, that reminds me of something, that but but Teddy Roosevelt did say, remember it was that that going into the arena, participating in life that a spectating. People who are prisoners of hope are always spectating. People who are liberated to hope are involved. Yeah.

Reminds me of, Paul. You know, Paul said, whatever state I'm in, he used the word content. I'm content. Mhmm. What he and then he goes on to say, hey, I've been up, I've been down, I've been rich, I've been poor, I've been popular, I've been hated, I've been everything. But I've been present in all of it. Mhmm. And in all of that, I can remain. I can stay present. You know, you content. You brought something up. You know, there were times after you had the hope of coming here. You transitioned into coming here. And when you got here, we began to talk even more, especially when you and I started really working together, which is a story in itself. But Mhmm. I started sharing with you even more the dream of sort of Sage Hill, which is what CPE was already doing, helping people see who they're made to be so they can do what they're made to do. And while on one hand, you cautioned me, on the other hand, you were scared to go ahead and hope in it, you know, to let yourself, you know, like, okay. Let's let's do this. And so I was talking to you about the dreaming, and you remember how difficult it is to take the risk of hoping because of how much you knew how life worked. Mhmm. But people who dream need to think, which you and I were doing a lot. I would say, hey. We're gonna do this. We're gonna do this. You say, hey. You know, what about thinking and looking at this? And so I threw the dream into the crucible. And, you know, you you got the medicine they call the pound the pulverizer. You know, this pest pesto. Pesto. Yeah. Pesto crucible. We just took turns just smashing up the dream. Mhmm. And, while you cautioned about it, it wasn't an unwillingness to step into it. That's right. But people who dream do need to think about it while they're hoping. We know there's gonna be a lot of transition that occurs and, you know, the ups and downs, what like you mentioned with Paul, ups and downs, winnings and losings and stuff. We know that winning is participating. So people who dream, think, and do are the winners. And they are liberated to hope. They're going to get hurt. It doesn't mean it's a repeat of the past when we were prisoners of hope. Sometimes we're gonna go back to that place, you know. Yeah. Kinda like, you know, what was I thinking? Yes. To believe that I was participating in something bigger and grander than my my own control. So people who are prisoners of hope are demanders that life remain like they can keep contained so that they don't have to let themselves be in the fear of hoping. And it's an isolation from who we're called and made and created and want to be. And I've mentioned to you, you know, about you you know, you were a pastor, counselor, truck driver. I mean, you've been so many things, but Yeah. I've mentioned you even yesterday that that it's like it's amazing that you thought you were giving up pastoring when you and I, you know, got together to step into this great project. And, I was saying something to you, like, in so many ways, I mean, somebody contacted you from Utah, yesterday, to ask you, something about the bible study that you and and Jeff Schulte had written. Mhmm. And there was even somebody from a prison in another state that had ordered the bible study you and Jeff had done, a prisoner. Yeah. Saying, how can my heart Yeah. Hope again? And how could redemption occur again? And I'm telling you, Phil, it's amazing, but it's like in some ways, therapists, counselor, or you're in some way shepherding more than you ever were going to Yeah. Before all because of your willingness to transition, to hope in spite of, a history that said, fools, don't reach a fool's goal. Oh, for sure. Your gold boy. Uh-huh. And someday, you and I go have Batman barbecue when you decide to, like, you know, back off. Right. You know? And that's ridiculous, isn't it? But anyway, so thank you for doing this. Yeah. Thank you. I'm just thinking

transition is an easy word to say and is even easy to analyze and look at. And sociologists, you know, they've written books like passages man, transition, change, it is bumpy and scary and, like Mhmm. Painful. And I can we mentioned last week, you know, I don't often I have not often associated hope with being so doggone painful. Yeah. And transition is painful. And if I'm a prisoner to hope Mhmm. It won't be as painful, but I will not ever true truly transition. Yeah. And and people who are prisoners of hope, they they they would see themselves as dreaming. Mhmm. But they're dreaming they're two sort of two kinds of dreaming. There's fantasizing and imagining. Mhmm. And prisoners of hope fantasize. You know, someday I'm gonna, it's gonna be like, if only I could. There's tragically stuck. And it's not a it's not a judgment call. It's just tragically stuck. Mhmm. And fantasy is is always about putting today's experience, feelings, thoughts, wishes, hopes, prayers off till tomorrow, which makes us

despise ourselves a little more the next day. I've heard you say that fantasy is the making up of a place I can go to get away from these feelings. Yes. It's it's our escape route versus imagining Mhmm. Which is, dreaming and then applying that dream to a willingness to step into it. So imagining is picturing how it is I'm going to, move towards this dream coming true, which is a willingness to be in pain. It's image bearing of creation of of of image bearing of God. I remember a good friend of mine in Texas, I kept talking about, I want to move to Murfreesboro or, you know, I want to move back to Tennessee to move to Murfreesboro Murfreesboro or, you know, I want to move back to Tennessee to move to Murfreesboro. And I talked about it a lot and didn't even realize how much I was just talking about it. And finally, he said, you know what? How come you just keep talking about it? Why don't you do something about it? I'm like I remember kind of I got I was caught unawares because I I didn't realize I was doing it. And and turned it out, I was, you know, moaning, instead of groaning. Do you know? So was that like fantasizing? Yeah. I was fantasizing. I didn't realize I was fantasizing. I because I was letting I was making my day better where I was, where I didn't wanna be. Yeah. Just like someday I'm gonna. He said, why don't you do so about it? And I remember I was real defensive. I said, okay. I will. And just and, really and truly, they really knocked me off the rock. And it was entered a real prayerful time because it woke me up to taking the risk with my hope Yeah. Versus using hope as a as a as a drug. Because I I know the backstory

of that story. Mhmm. And I know, you know, we're for brevity's sake, you told the short cut. But Mhmm. When that man said that to you, he wasn't doing it like a, you know, goofball conversation over coffee. He was he was seriously confronting you. Yes. He was. Chip, I even talked about this. Now Yes. For lack of better term, get out of fantasy. Yeah. And let's deal with what are you saying when you say Take a risk of imagining. Yeah. Take a risk of imagining. And that led, to and, yeah, he was I mean, he was he was angry with me. He was frustrated by my he could see me being stuck. And I promise you, I didn't know it. Is it someone dared to hope speak into me. Mhmm. And then that turns into a series of growths, transitions, wishing, I mean, amazing stories

came out of that sort of casting my bread upon the waters. So you came out of that man's office. Remember, you tell me that story, this guy who I very cursory knew of Yeah. In the metroplex there. But you you were in his office. He was calling you, confronting you on you being in fantasy. Mhmm. How did you begin imagining? When after he he confronted me, I realized that I was terrified to take the risk of of letting my hope turn into plans. There's that fear again. Uh-huh. Hoping and fear. Uh-huh. And then it became instead of I'm gonna go someday, it's how do I actually do this? And could god be for this? And can this happen? Do I dare? And then it starts the recognition of calculation of all that could go wrong, which leaves me back to prison. And and it's it's worse to almost escape than to simply resign ourselves to this is where we're always gonna be. But it turned into taking risks, making plans, taking action, and willingness to lose. Mhmm. And that was the win. Yeah. And that's something. That's something. That's the truth too. Admitting that my heart could not let go of what I was actually called to do. For the longest, I thought that, even wanting to come back to really was my hometown was sort of a weakness, a psychological weakness, or it was a lack of something, lack of maturity. Turns out it was a call. I mean, we can look backwards now twenty Mhmm. What, twenty twenty years. Twenty years. Twenty years. Ninety six. And the well, just like I was affirming you about, I mean, some of you are more shepherd minister, medicine man, medicine giver, then I think you would have been otherwise, though I think you'll be blessed either way. But somehow, this is special. And I think had I not followed that in my heart, which was started with hoping again and then taking action in it. I think it would have been okay. Yeah. But, you know, Phil, I think I I would have missed something. Do you know? And And many other people would have too had you not done it. Well, you know what? Because I would say that to you, I'll I will accept it from you. Do you know what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. Can I get that pencil in the neck when you talk? Because it it's scary to think, you know, you know, if if you accept it, maybe some good has come, some hopes have been realized. Yeah. It it it does set us up now in our new fear that people will think that I think. Some are successful or, you know. Well, people who hope well, and imagine, and take action, they're successful. So I mean, that's just the truth. And here's the funny thing, they're successful like children are. They're free to hope before they're often ushered into the prison of hope.

This is Stephen James, the executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sometimes in life, we get stuck or blocked or reach an impasse. At times like these, an intensive short term therapy could help you overcome what's keeping you from the growth and changes you desire. At Sage Hill Counseling, we offer therapeutic incentives to help couples gain new momentum in their recovery process. If you wanna find out more, please visit sagehillcounseling.com.