Interview with Scott Hearon

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they are made to be so they can do what they're made to do. Hey, Chip. Hey, Steve. How are you doing? I'm good, man. I'm glad to be with you today. It's good to see you. Yeah. Hey. We got a this is a special edition of the Sage Hill podcast. Do you know why? Yes, Steve. I I sure do. You mean there's another person in the room? There's another person in the room. Today, we got Scott. This is you being funny. This is me being funny. I think it's hilarious. This is humor. How do you fake it? This is let me introduce Scott first Oh, okay. Before you start talking to him. Hey, Scott. We got, Scott Heron with us today. Scott is the executive director of the Nashville Coaching Coalition. Scott has a outreach to coaches where he helps them engage their heart so they can serve other people with greater wisdom, compassion, strength, and integrity. And, and I thought it'd be great for him to join us because one of the things that Scott's told me about is that the spiritual root system has started infusing kinda everything he's doing with the National Coaching Coalition. And so I thought it'd be good for us to have a conversation with him about that. How Which is exactly what we hoped. It's Absolutely. You know? So, without further ado, mister Scott Herron. That's so cheesy. But here we go. Hey, Scott. What's up, guys? Hey, man. Welcome. You're the first guest on the stage show podcast. I'm honored. It's almost it's almost scary. It's like it's, like like we're doing radio or something. Because Steve's acting different than he normally does. And I I don't know what to do with that. Of course, holding the mic like this. Yeah. We're we're down to mic, so it's a little odd. Just spinning the hits. Well, thank you for having me. I'm I'm glad you were. I'm glad you came to the studios today. It's it's good. And what a beautiful studio it is. Hey, Scott. How how did you get involved in in all of what we're doing? Like, you've been kind of been around the edges now for a little while, but what how did National Coaching Coalition and Scott Herron get involved

in spiritual root system work? Now it really came through just my my personal work with with Sage Hill. I was a year into my marriage and, just struggling. I was working for a church and and, and, was grateful to be where I was, but felt like I just life was caving in on me a little bit. And for my first year of marriage was hard, and, working for a church was hard. And and my own spiritual life was more life honest. Just like normal life. Because I was thinking the first my first year of marriage was great. Deadpan. Yeah. And I worked at a church and it was awesome. By the way, Scott, you know him well. That's seizures. I know. I know. His voice don't change with you. I know it. Well, I don't even think I realized, what I was in in the middle of. I actually how I got connected to, say, Chill was I was reading about R. A. Dickey, who I've known from a distance and had a lot of respect for and and was reading his book. And and there was this quote that jumped out to me that I'll paraphrase here, but I I think that you told RA or wrote in his book that I was he was told by you that if he doesn't deal with the places that he came from and the the hardness of life that he's been through, he's might as well package up his dysfunction and give it to his kids for Christmas. Yeah. And, something about I read that and was like, gosh. I hope that's not me. You know? And and, so I I love working with athletes and with coaches, and it's just a kind of a call I feel like I have in my life. And and so, really, I probably called you the first time because I really wanted you to do something for me more than I thought I needed, some some some work in my own life. And, through pursuing you through that, I got sent in your office, and you had to tell me how lonely and angry and manipulative I was. And here two years later, here we are. We find ourselves still hanging around. So Absolutely. Yeah.

So tell me how that fits in with the coaching coalition. Like, what what is the coaching coalition? Like, how to get started? You know? But before you heard the quote from Steve, Ari Dickey, and you said, I I hope that's not me. Mhmm. And then you you went to go and make sure, Like like, you were after something. You wanted something. Mhmm. Can you say a little more about that? Like, what made you want something? What what is that? I mean, you're like, I hope that's not me. I don't want that to be me, and I'm willing to do something about it. That's pretty pretty bold. Yeah. I think it was probably subconscious thinking of, like, the resin it resonated in me of that's probably my story too, you know. And and I remember the the shame of first feeling, well, RA has this really, this really outwardly, hard story with abuse and all those things that he wrote about. Mhmm. And and and from a physical capacity, I didn't see my story as on par with his. Like, you know, I remember thinking, like, that's that's why he's a great guy and a big deal. And he's got this really deep, you know, story. Mine's really not that big of a deal. So you're you're you're being, like, quote, messed up unquote all about your fault. That's You know what I'm saying? There's not He's got a reason to be messed up. Yeah. Nothing happened. It wasn't that bad that happened to me. Yeah. Whatever happened to me. Mhmm. You know? And and I think looking back on it now, I think there was some part of my humanity that, like, wanted no. No. No. I I do have something to be more than to be grieved and and, I wanna step into that. And I I couldn't put words to that then, but I I think looking back on it, there was a desire to be known in a way that I watched him being known right there. Like, I wanted more. You say I I I want more than

just winding up stuck or Yeah. Something like that. I wanna be known. Yeah. Brave men do that. Desperate men do that. Mhmm. So you're a good man. So I'm glad about that. Thanks. Appreciate that. You. Yeah. What so I guess how spiritual root system for me intertwines with that. One, it's really personal. I I feel really confident that I would not be stepping out of the last year doing what I'm doing without my background and the work with you guys in the spiritual root system stuff, to to quit a full time job and to step out in a nonprofit that has me and my own codependency has makes me go nuts sometimes. And to be able to have been a part of a community of people of talking about life honestly and sharing in that, like, I think that well, I know it's been God's way of giving me a lot of courage to be able to take the next steps into what I think he's calling me to. Mhmm. So that that's how it really first started. And then as, it came into my work, you know, we we use these two terms a lot, in the coaching, athletic world. It's it's transactional coaching versus transformational coaching. And you could interchange that with leadership. Transactional leadership versus transformational leadership. And the idea is transaction. It's kinda like, you know, when I think transaction, I think, like, I'm going to the gas station teller and I'm giving them a dollar and they're giving me something in return. And and that's that has been my experience in the sports world. Like, sports is a place where, men and women use kids to get what they need for them, you know. And I, versus the idea of transformational, which is I'm getting enough of myself. I'm meeting my needs in a healthy way so I can bring myself fully to those that I lead.

And So coaches have something to offer that they're inspired to offer in the transformational coaching, and they want those kids to have it so that everybody wins. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it's about it's about the it's about growing kids up to be, prepared for life in a healthy way, not getting what they need based off of their story and where they come from and all that kind of thing. So I think as I I'd already had a little bit of that language when I kinda intersected with the spiritual root system, the the the bell in my head went off of, like, that's us really attacking not just a symptom of destructive coaching, which we've all, you know, in some form or fashion probably had an interaction with. A coach is yelling sports past third grade rec or kindergarten rec baseball, you probably had, on some level,

it kindergarten rec baseball, you probably had, on some level, an abusive coach who'd, at some point, for any moment, who needed you to perform at some level so that he or she would be okay with themselves. I don't. I remember umpiring a a softball game, at Civitan Baseball Park in Brentwood, and it was, like, nine year old girls. And it was, like, the first year of player pitch. And so I was calling balls and strikes from behind the from behind the pitcher's mound. Right? Danger zone. Danger zone. And and, there was only one umpire. Right? Oh. And all these Brentwood parents need their kids to be successful at softball. You're calling second base. You're calling fouls. You're calling So and it and so I'm calling balls and strikes, which was okay. And then there's a girl got on first base. And then there was a next batter up, hit the ball to the second baseman. Runner on first base starts running to second. Second baseman tries to place the tag. I couldn't tell if she ran by, whether she was tagged or not because of the angle. So I called time, went over to 2nd Base, asked the girl if she got tagged. She said, yes, sir. Went over to the second baseman, said, did you tag her? She said, yes, sir. I called her out. Not the best umpiring. But the coaches went crazy. Started raging, screaming, cussing. One guy, like, literally kicked dirt on the umpire. Like, I'm like his teenage kid.

And these dads were going crazy because I, asked, two children to tell the truth about who who got out. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Because they I guess they needed the game to be, like, the way they needed the game to be. I'm not sure what they needed, but I failed them desperately. You know, there's a there's a a guy that was coaching, the travel baseball. My son one of my sons was on the travel baseball. He was a worship leader at a church and the umpire missed the call. And the worship leader guy, he went nuts. And actually, and this is, I think this is a nine year old or 10 year old ball. Oh, yeah. And he A big guy now. He scruff dirt up on the shoes of the umpire. And the umpire threw him out of the game. Well then, Sunday came and, he looks out in the audience and there the umpire sitting, he the umpire went to the guy's church. Oh, gosh. Afterwards, he said, look, I just want to recommend that especially with the position you represent that you really kind of, show some different kind of behavior while you're coaching. So Yeah. So a lot of people have had bad experience with this. Yeah. There's some yeah. Something happens in that world. Yeah. It pulls something out of a person that, you you want to do something about, Scott. I mean, transaction versus if we don't win, we're no good, unless you can perform, you're no good. Unless I perform as a coach, I'm no good. Mhmm. It's like there's this giant overarching threat Toxic shame. In the whole thing versus transformational, which is another deal. Right? Yeah. No doubt. And I I think before

my little understanding of spiritual root system, the thought was, well, if we just put give coaches more rules, you know, give them give them more things to think about and and more things to do better on, then somehow that's gonna improve this whole thing. And and but, really, it's as it's really just a heart issue. It's not a informational issue. And so when getting experience with the spiritual root system, I remember doing feelings and feelings leading us to needs and and just having that kinda moment of, as humans, as leaders, particularly in the sports world, if we're not getting our needs met in a really healthy way, I I cannot in my own humanness, like, I can't do any better than just use the people that are in front of me to make myself feel better about me. And so it's not an information gap necessarily in the sports world. It's a process gap. It's a it's a a heart level issue that can only be addressed in a heart level,

way. And so And that's true about parenting. No doubt. That's true about management employee relationships. That's true about organizational leadership dynamics. Like, if I don't have if I'm not getting my needs met in legitimate ways, then I'm very likely to demand the people I have authority over to do something to make me okay. Okay. So you want to help coaches, be more, have more of what they intended to have in the beginning. Mhmm. But they can't give what they don't don't have. Yeah. You wanna move them, be good at the the actual, like, the techniques, information, like, great, go get it, feed it, content driven, super. Mhmm. But unless they grasp what it's really for besides transaction of reward, punishment, win, lose Mhmm. Rankings and all, there's gotta be more than that. Otherwise, I don't think the coach gets fed and I don't think the athlete athlete gets fed either because, like, for example, I I I was in sports from gosh, from the backyard all the way to, some college basketball, and then both of my sons from the literally from the backyard through, d one, college baseball. So, I mean, I've been around coaches, athletics, athletes, just just forever. And the power exposure of what they they already have and showing them and giving them permission and showing the value of revealing it, you know. Because, I remember Say that again. Like, it it it's it's not about, giving the coach a new set of information. It's actually about exposing what the coach already has in him or her and then, showing them what to do with it. Mhmm. I mean, what took a person to coaching in the beginning was looking for something that really mattered and probably hoping to give something that was of value too, you know? I know. Get back to the game. Get back to the game. I love the game. And you know what? I'll bet you, when those coaches look at what took them to it, there's a story involved that has something to do with relationships more than it has to do with remembering the scores and just, wanting to stay. The stay in this they wanna stay in this place where they were really alive. And I'll bet you, a lot of that life and living in it is relational. Like, I hear guys talk about they missed the locker room Mhmm. More than they missed the game. Yeah. You know, and I remember, the power of of a transformational coach back in the early seventies before everything was more process oriented, psychological. I mean, I was on a football team, ninth grade, 14 years old. I have really one strong memory of that whole time, but there were 88 kids that went out for the team. And it was in a high school with 3,000 students. And, basically, if you wanted to stay on the team, you're welcome. But you've got to go through a series of things to be able to do it. If you could stay and you could take it, if you could endure the verbal, physical, emotional abuse, then you're welcome to stay. Mhmm. And I remember some days we would run and the locker room was nearby. We would just run. Run. Run. And finally, people just peel off. And by the end of the the the the the hour and a half, two hours of sometimes three hour practices without water because water was weakness then. Believe this is insanity. I mean, people remember these kinds of things, but but they would be 88 went to 44. 44 went to 24. 24 went to I think at the end of the when the season actually started, there were 13 of us. Mhmm. I remember being in one game. There were 12 there were 12 of us and 11 to play. So one person's on the side. I have two coaches and their trainer. And I have to admit that I was one of the guys on the side. I was actually the guy on that game that played I played, offense only. But I was six four, one seventy five as an offensive tackle. So you see, it's just crazy. But here's my point. After we lost to a team that had never lost the school in the school history of the school they never lost before, and there are fourteen hours, thirteen hours on the team. And, so he said, you know, we've humiliated the coach. So today, you know, I don't care who's left. You know, we're gonna we're gonna go through. You better bring your supper because here we go. So at the end of practice, and it was a very long practice, we had to run each of us had to run two four forties in groups of threes or fours under a minute ten to go home. And I had had it. I was done. I I I couldn't do it. I knew in my head, I cannot do this. I'm done. I mean, I I was the last one to stay. You know, we'd all made it, but I was like, well, I'm done. And first time in my life that I can remember, I cheated. The first group of three ran, and I went over and stood in the group of three and started faking like I was breathing hard, like I joined that group. So Oh, yeah. It's like but how does it got hot with 12 people there? It's like so I'm like In groups of three. In groups of three, it's like, I'm gonna be discovered. So so the first group did it, and it's like, okay. It's time for the second time. I'm like, okay. I got nowhere to hide anymore. So I stood up. I said, I can't do it. And and there was a kid on the team that when we were growing up, I taught him how to hit a baseball. He'd come over my house, and he had brothers play football. So but he they'd never done baseball, so I would pitch to him and he'd hit. And and sometimes I'd spend a nice house. They'd go to the we'd go to basketball games together. His family would take me and so on. And, then, you know, we just kinda faded away with each other and met each other again in high school. But I said, I can't do it. I'm done. And John his name is John Carter. He said, you can. Yes. You can. Almost like blessing me with a memory of me having been in his life. Mhmm. But he, like, he wasn't going to let me go. And I said, no. I got I I quit. I can't do it. And and I was literally about to I was gonna lose because all of us out there were basically it was 13 orphans. The only people left with Only people left through that. We're we're already kind of, you know, creatures. And if you look back at these kids, it's like all of us were looking for daddy's love, honestly. Honestly. Just looking just like, what do I gotta do to be worth something? That's why how come we stay? But, I was ready to go and the coach walked up to me, and I was expecting, you know, why don't you get your stuff and go and leave? And instead, what he did, he literally just just he patted me on the rib cage. He just patted me twice and said, you can do this. And I literally just turned around, whistle blew, and I started running. And it's like I did it. And then after I finished, the other coach who was the meaner one, he said he said, you get back up there. You better run a 100 yard dash in under fifteen seconds. I promise you, you'll never go home. Something like, I did it. But the reason I did it was a transformational thing that happened. It wasn't transactional because I admitted I quit. I couldn't do it. And he basically said, don't leave. And he patted me. All he did was pat me. He barely touched me and recanted. He just patted my rib cage. And he said I could do it. And so I said I could do it because it was like, you believe. You believe, I believe. And I'm I'm I'm a dead man if I leave here. And so it's like, this man saved my life on some level. So it it so what I'm saying, Scott, I love what you're doing. I'm grateful for what you're doing. Coaches really do matter. I don't mean to make them responsible for people's lives because most people people are going to coaching to save lives. But I hope they go into coaching to ultimately help a person build a life. Mhmm. Build their character. Build memories. Because athlete after athlete I hear him talking. My son's talking. They're all talking about the memories of how the coach cared, if they remember the coach at all, except to describe him as just some kind of a jerk. And then they remember each other. The players remember each other being together. Mhmm. You know? So, I mean, I love that you're doing transformational coaching because my life was transformed by a coach. One pat in the rib cage, for a kid who was desperate for level, nowhere else to go. So that it was really important. And I think a lot of coaches deal with a lot of kids who,

you know, have have nowhere else to go. A lot of difficult families. Yeah. Yeah. Any of us More so than than ever. Exceeded in sports, succeeded in sports. A lot of us found the field to be the haven from home. Right? You know, and a lot of these professional athletes I work with, will credit their difficult extra determination. Mhmm. You know, the sanctuary of the of the athletic field. Yeah. So those that that that didn't don't have a home, they got nowhere to go. Those who do have a home actually can't get much help if the coach is Sick. Is sick. Yeah. They the Pam family ends up helping the kid endure abuse. Yeah. Which I have to admit, I showed my sons, look, this is how you handle these kinds of people. And it was actually silence in their protest. I silenced their protest in some ways, and it's my fault. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I remember that. Yeah.

I come from a a family. We're a sports sick family and had them for a long time. And, grandparents were from Birmingham, Alabama. And I grew up we had a picture of Paul Bear Bryant who, y'all know who Bear was. Yeah. So, like, the Catholics have picture of the pope. Your family had a picture of Bear Bryant. Of Bear Bryant. Wow. Yeah. Except except so my mom didn't get it. The Baptist got Jesus. The Catholics got the pope. And so we all got Bear Bryant. The Baptist had Billy Graham. Oh, Billy Graham. He's our pope. Well because the and so my my mom came from a non sports family where she the first time she saw the Bear Bryant picture, it would she thought it was Walter Matthau. So so I have these two very competing sides in our in our family. So I kinda grew up in this tension of of sports is a big deal, but don't you let it be too big of a deal. But coaches were seen as as heroes and always, particularly in kind of this southern evangelical thing that we grew up in that you're a good Christian kid, and you listen to your coach and you say, yes, sir, and do absolutely everything that he says. And for me, I wasn't a very gifted athlete, but I could say yes to a coach, and I could put my nose down and go to the grind Yeah. For him. And I look back with, a lot of sadness about what kinda roads that led me down where I really gave up a lot of myself and the pursuit of hoping that this position, this coach

would validate the parts of me in the world forte to be a boy. And they can. Yeah. And I I I really believe coaches are made to be heroes. Mhmm. And they do become heroic through transformational processes. I mean, that coach, Gail Blair, is heroic to a 14 year old boy. So, I mean, I'm I'm with it. But the tragedy is that these figures that get placed into a heroic role, lot of them will not live in it. I don't mean live up to it, but actually live in it, you know, develop the heart to be able to be transformational people. I'm thinking of about, a couple of coaches I had that weren't the best coaches, but I knew they cared about me more than they knew about the game. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And what that was like I'm just thinking right now about a basketball coach. Just what that was like. Uh-huh. You know? To think about a coach who can who knows the game and knows the kids. Oh my god. Woah.

I mean, serious business. I mean, Engel Martin over at CPA is that guy. I know it's a program you work with over at Christ Presbyterian Academy some. And Engel's that coach. Right? He knows the game and he cares about the hearts of the of the boys he coaches Mhmm. In a in a really transformative way. Yeah. You know, one of the things we run up we butt up against a lot is this idea that what you what you're just preaching is to just we wanna pat our kids on the butt and tell them good job and we go get our tails beat. You know, what Engel has kinda proven is there's a way of, approaching a kid, and being competitive and wanting to win and wanting to prepare and practice just as hard as anybody does, but with an intentionality to care about the kid and their personhood and separate it from their performance on the field. And Engel does that really well, and he really started doing it with his coaches before he ever really brought this mindset into his locker room. And, you know, the last, gosh, four or five years, he's taken a group of pretty average athletic

kids and has done some pretty unbelievable stuff with him. Got their hearts. Got their hearts. Yeah. Got their hearts. Hey. You know what? There's a there's a a some research that's been going on for some time. What's the place in California? Fuller Thraller Center. Guy named Holtberg. Ben Holtberg. And what's so cool is that he shows that how good relationship, which is what we we have gotten into into that today, but transformational a good relationship where a person knows they're accepted and can't take risks Mhmm. And give themselves to something and actually do it for the coach. You know, like, once Gail Blair patted me on the rib cage and I believed he believed in me, I wasn't leaving. There's no way I'm leaving. I'm staying where the love is. I'm staying where I can learn. I'm staying where I'm valued. I'm in. So I mean and that's how he's gonna get everything I've got. But, Research.

Yeah. Research. Thank you, Steve. God, you just saw that look. I looked at you like, what am I talking about? I was just waiting for the look. Actually, I was just tracking and waiting. I appreciate that. You're welcome. But he said that good relationship lowers stress, and lowering stress means that you you've reduced your hypervigilance. Fear and shame go down. Yeah. Exactly. And you're not looking for what the coach is looking for. You're looking into the game. So it increases performance. So this transformational coaching reduces stress, reduces high provisions, lowers fear and shame, increases willingness to risk Increases presence. Increases focus, increases presence, can't help but increase performance. It makes the less talented, more talented, the more talented, extremely talented. And it brings team into play too. I mean, like, look, you can run.

I can't run so well, but I can hit. You can throw, you throw, I'll hit, you run. Let's go. Let's do this together. Yeah. It's really belonging and mattering, like, at its finest. Yes. You are. Yeah. Where the power sport comes in so strongly is that it gives us this opportunity to help each kid no matter if they're four foot two and play the flute or they're six foot five and a great athlete, this place to really feel like who they are matters. You're making them all more different. You're even saying that a a person who, conducts the band is a coach. Absolutely. I mean, you said four foot two plays the flute, whatever. Yeah. Like, they have a place. Mhmm. And they need to be coached. Yeah. So transformational coaching, like Steve mentioned earlier, is parenting, preaching, teaching, the conductor of an orchestra or

a coach on the field. Hey. Hey. We're running up on time, so I'm gonna I'm gonna kinda steer the ship in a different direction real quick. One of the reasons we wanted Scott on the podcast today was for us to announce that we've partnered with him to do a weekend workshop for coaches. Right? And we're calling it Leading with Heart in Athletics. Is that right, Scott? Sounds good to me. Yeah. April seventh, eighth, and ninth here in Middle Tennessee, Nashville Coaching Coalition, Sage Hill Institute. We're putting something on together. You can go to our websites. There'll be information up on both those websites. Scott, what is your website? Yeah. It's just, it's spelled out nashvillecoachingcoalition.com. K. Great. Or sagehillinstitute.com and find out more about that. If you know a coach, if you are a coach, if you care about a kid being coached, you wanna know more about how to do transformational coaching, we'd love to have you there. Don't have a lot of space, but we'd we'd love your interest and your participation. So find out more on our website. Yeah. And it it makes so much sense. The natural partnership is that,

you wanna help people see who they're made to be, coaches, so they can do what they're made to do, and that's what the Spiritual Root System is all about. So glad Thank you. Thanks for being with us, Scott. Thank you. See you later. This is Stephen James, the executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, anxiety, depression, or burnout, please reach out to the Center for Professional Excellence for Health. For more than twenty years, CBE's long term residential treatment programs have been helping professional men recover their lives, marriages, and families. To find out more, visit cpenashville.com.