The Profound Need To Be Cared For

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they are made to be so they can do what they're made to do. Hey, Phil. Hey, Stephen. This is a little weird. Yes. It is. It's like, you know, Chip's out of town, and you and I have commandeered the podcast room. He'll never know. He'll never know. So we we got this, we've got a little little room on the leash, as they say. Uh-huh. And, you and I are here today, and, you know, we're talking about some things to talk about. This idea of the profound need to be cared for kinda came up. And, one, you're really good at that. The silence means still is blushing, but you're you're like, you really are we've used the word pastoral before to describe you, but you really are so good at caring for people and not getting flustered by them and not getting offended by their, resistance to change and their what whatever would make someone unlikable, you seem to tolerate in spades. And you seem to like people. For someone, like, you really do seem to kinda care and like for people and not expect too much about from them. Yeah. I don't know what that is. Good or bad, that really is true. Yeah. I do. What do you what do you think, like, that's that's about? Like, how do you do that? Because I don't I I like people, like, but they also annoy the crap out of me.

Yeah. Your tolerance, button a little yeah. A little low? A little lower. I'm working on it. Lower than some. You know, I don't know if it's blessing, curse, or what it is, but, I think a lot of that comes from my own story. I think I was, those familiar with family roles. I was a typical hero child. Yeah. You know, I had a one sibling was certainly the scapegoat. One sibling was our mascot or, you know, in some ways, our lost child too. But, you know, I just remember feeling all these feelings, mostly fear and a whole lot of anger about of course, me being the hero child, I had less direct punishment, kind of a nice way of saying mistreatment, abuse, you know. But I heard and saw a lot of it, in my home growing up with my siblings. And, I just remember, you know, I have this one collective memory that is made up of a million memories. Right. Just just standing literally and figuratively standing by, listening and watching that happened to people I cared about by people I cared about, and there was nothing I could do about it. And, so I just remember, you know, kinda walking away halfway. I hated myself for doing nothing about it, and I hated myself for being a little bit glad it wasn't me. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And And so Man, that's a conflict. It really was. Yeah. And I think somehow another through the years I got honed in, I guess, the tone of my home was, impatience, intolerance for humanness, absolute hair trigger rage around any perceived mistake or oversight or whatever that I I think maybe the pain of that and the helplessness around that began to hone a a sense in me of, you know because I remember thinking, over and over just I don't know if I ever said it out loud or not, honestly. I've frankly, I haven't thought about it this way ever till this moment. I think, over and over my head, I would think, on behalf of my sister, so to speak, on behalf of my brother, hey. Give the kid a break. I remember that for that phrase, for lack of a better term, feels very familiar to me. Yeah. Like, give the kid a break. And, I think that I think that grew in me and when these things happen with like, I was in Brand New Recovery 1986, just raw and Right. Crazy and, you know, my own violent stuff going on in very early recovery. I think something in me remembers,

give the kid a break. It's like a I mean, two things come to mind when you say that. One is the just the clarity of of mercy. Mhmm. Like, just beyond, empathy or compassion, but the desire to give someone a tenderness or an understanding that man, that's great. And the other is it sure seems that what what evil intended to harm you with, God used to create you into a man that's good at caring for people. When and you were, like, in your daily life, not just as a as a clinical director at CPE, but, I mean, as an elder at your church and as a person in your community, when you how do you tell that when you've run into somebody that just really needs to be cared for? Like, what do you see? What do you notice? Not that we all don't need it. Right? Yeah. You know? We'll talk about that in a minute, but but there's a way, I think, sometimes we don't look. Mhmm. We go through our lives looking at our phones, going from errand to errand, place to place. You know? And you seem to you taught me. I mean, years ago, we'd go to lunch, and I didn't know how to do small talk. But you we'd go through the cafeteria line at Copper Kettle, and you would strike up conversations with people. And, like, you really practice caring for these people, not in a weird way, but, like, you would stop and talk to them. They would talk to you, and they would look at me and go, Salisbury steak. Yeah. And it it's like I watched you care for people in the cafeteria line. You know, how do you how do you know know to notice those people? What do you recognize in those people?

You know, I think there are several thing. These are, like, emotional questions for me. Oh, Christ, people. That's okay. It's a podcast. Thank you for saying all that. I mean, I don't really see that, clearly as you do, I think. Yeah. There's no at through the cafeteria line, when I see their you know, I'm at the age now where most people are younger. Yeah. The young those young kids fishing up food. The the ones older than me are, you know, living somewhere behind closed doors. You know? Oh my gosh. You know? Everybody's younger. Everyone's younger. World just keeps getting younger than me. Gosh. So I I would look at those, you know, kids, young young people behind that counter back there, and steam coming up from those vegetables, and noise back there, and, you know, people running around, and people on either side of us in the line, you know, just wanting to get you know, just keep a damn lunch, you know, that kinda thing. You know? Yeah. And I would just look at their faces, and and I I would look and see that that's such hard work. And, and I remember, you know, back in my day, hard work. I'm to have this particular memory. My dad was in the trucking business, and so that's, you know, what I did. My very first job of of any income at all was, sweeping a a dock, a freight dock. I was 16. I couldn't get a couldn't get a a a union card yet. So I'm gonna sweep the dock. I couldn't drive any equipment. I sweep the the dock. I remember just being treated just like, you know, these old these old dudes would just, you know, wear me out. Yes. And I would think, you know, don't don't you say I'm a human here? And the answer was no. Not really.

And so Dispatch centers and stuff aren't places of great compassion and human curiosity and care. No. No. Human curiosity. No. At the terminal. Yeah. Yeah. The old freight dog. Place of curiosity. No. But, no, I you know, I just remember those days just feeling so dang lonely, you know, like, scared to death. You know, I kinda had to do it, and I'm just making a living. You know, that kind of thing. And and so I just ended up for, again, God providence and and things like that. But I just ended up in these places where even in a workplace, it would just just hard. May and they they were hard environments. They were men focused, blue collar, just get it done, nose to the ground. Hey. Look. I hate my job. You're gonna hate yours too one day kids. Yeah. No one was gonna give a kid a break. No. Yeah. Yeah. To in a few ways. And then I think one more thing. I'm I'm just thinking about several conversations I've had this week, separate from CPE here. I just noticed that there are people who, whether it's a look on the face or as they begin to talk, I notice people will sometimes have really pressured speech. There's something in me that says they don't know that they're almost yelling, or they're talking through gritted teeth, or their jaws are clenched. They can barely get a word, you know, out their lips because there's something in them has, is happening. And I I remember the first time I sat in a in a group. You you did it several times, and Chip did it several times. I've never been told this in my life. I I remember I have members of both of you at different times looking at someone in a circle and saying, hey. Hey. Breathe. Breathe. And I would look over and think, wow. Yeah. Stephen or Chip noticed that guy's not even breathing. Yeah. And I will notice that about people. Like, I'm amazed at how I'm probably doing it too. Times I don't realize that I would look at people, a guy this past Sunday at my church I never met before came up to me as direct up a conversation, and and I remember looking at it. He wasn't breathing. And so it turns out Oh my gosh. I didn't see his chest move, you know. Scared to death. Yeah. Like, three or four times a minute. And turns out this guy is just horribly hurting over a divorce, and in his case, stuff and these things, frankly, that I picked up from you, from Chip, from other men I respect, both clinically and otherwise, to say, you know, if you really if a person really looks at another person and just listens can really see a lot of life, going on. I remember kind of briefly a little story. I may have told it before in a podcast. I don't remember. But a mentor of mine, I hadn't seen him in thirty years. A guy named Chuck. Oh, his youth group guy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My guy. I remember Chuck and I met. We met for lunch. We haven't seen each other in thirty years, and I told him just a little bit of my story just catching up. I looked over at him and his his mouth was wide open. His eyes were big, and he said he said, I had no idea that was your life. I had no clue that was your life going on. And and, you know, I'm not blaming him. I'm just saying that was a hero child having done it having done my role. Did your job, went to church, looked great. Yes. Yeah. He he said, he said, I was a 22 year old kid. I loved kids, and I love Jesus. That's about all I knew. Yeah. And he didn't know perhaps how to look at a kid because I'm I'm pretty sure I probably wasn't breathing. I was probably talking to him through Clint's teeth. Oh, yeah. He didn't see it. And so, I guess those two territories kinda knowing what it's like on a freight dock behind a broom,

getting call stuff and then the other thing. Man, what so what you just said, I heard you said, you know, to care for people, you gotta recognize that they're like you. Yeah. And to care for people, you gotta recognize that there's been times in your life that you needed to be cared for. Mhmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's really well said. I mean, that's what you just said. Right. There's a five minute thank you, Stephen. Ten seconds for a five minute survey. That's perfect. Yeah. Stories make it make more sense. Right? But and so you're when, you know, we're going through Copper Kettle, If y'all have not eaten at the Copper Kettle, Bob, that's a shameless plug for the Copper Kettle. It's in Nashville. It's over by Lipscomb University, and it is one of the best meat and three, but not just meat and three lunch spot salads Oh. Wraps and Yeah. Oh, man. It's a good it's a good place. Two food guys getting off on this. Yeah. Oh my god. It's almost dinner time too, so it's kinda easy to slip into that. But, we go through that. You're seeing those those men in there, those young men, and you're recognizing, like, they're they're not much different than me. And, man, they're we're working hard. I know it's like to work hard. Mhmm. So so the other side of that is, you know, what we do to not care for people, I guess, is to is to decide that they're not like me Mhmm. Or I'm not like them. Mhmm.

You know? Yeah. It's a real, you've story, I think, is pretty well known, but, you know, the the, father Damien, you know, who who moved in with the leper colony. And the story goes, you know, he would come out of this his hut every morning and say, you know, good morning, my my precious ones. Good morning, sheep. Good morning, loved ones. And then the the morning arrived where he walked out the door and said, good morning, fellow lepers. Oh, wow. You know? And it's Yeah. A great story about this great missionary from many years ago that I think that's what you're talking about Yeah. That he did so well. Yeah. When guys leave treatment here at CPE, one of the the impressions that they leave with and can't take it to can't get away from is that Phil Herndon loves them. And they they call back and stay connected and, you know, talk to grandpa Phil almost. You know? And if if you were to encourage some other people, which you can't do right now in our podcast, to to care for others well this week as a as an expert in caring. Right? What what advice, direction, encouragement would you would you give people?

You know, I wanna talk about a person to answer your question. Yeah. It's one of my family members who said to me, really, like, I was in the left turn lane by the Fatmo's in, Murfreesboro, Tennessee. So I had that kind of Another good place for food. Though you might wanna look at the health score as you get your burger. I'm a fan. You you will not wanna look at that. Yeah. Don't look at the health score. Just eat the burger, get a milkshake, and drive on once a year. Yeah. That was in the lane. So it's it's it's molded in my memory that heart. Like, I have this tactile memory of where I was and this family member said to me on the phone, you know, Phil, all these things, happened in in our home is, like, pretty terrible stuff. Mhmm. And one of the grown ups, never ever ever said, I'm sorry, or recognized, you know, the the the mistreatment of that. And the other one, didn't even notice. Wow. And it was the the powerless statement to me was the second one more than the first one. Yeah. You know, we know all the models that say, you know, it's the enabling parent that teach the children how to be sick and those kinds of things. But,

so coming off that Yeah. The parent that knew something bad was going on was actually the better parent. Oh, yeah. Right? Sure. Then the parent They just acted like nothing was happening. Nothing's happening. Or was clueless to it. Yeah. You know, parent does that. The children walk away being insane going, okay. Well, I thought something was going on. Apparently, it doesn't. Yeah. So but I just think, you know, the power of someone noticing to at least ask a question for me. And that that has been so profoundly the people like Chip Dodd, like you Mhmm. Like Todd Wormers Mhmm. You know, many other people that that I love and and that have loved me so well. You know, that's the kind of question y'all ask me. Yeah. You know? And so every time that happens, and I know I don't realize it this way every time, but I have before and I am in this moment, you and I look at one another. Every time that happens to me, when someone not you know, we we've all heard, don't just say good morning, how you doing, unless you really mean it. Yeah. I know all that's true. But, like, for people people that I know love me, they have intimate relationships with, like you and Chip and others, to just to just notice something and ask a question about it. Every time that happens, it reminds me, sometimes consciously, I think all always unconsciously, someone is paying attention. Yeah. And, that to me is one of the most you know, it's real simple or profound things that that I I I really know that more deeply because of people doing that with me than me doing it with them. Yes. You know, I've been given just the great blessing and privilege of people doing that over and over. So, like, being, like, genuinely being curious, genuinely paying attention. I noticed this about you. Mhmm.

Or I wondered this about you. Or what was that like? Or how does that how is that? You know, just just to be curious about another person as a way that people could care Yes. For another. You know, thank Thanksgiving two thousand eight. I was walking around my, mom's my mom and dad's, my mom's. My dad had passed away in 2005. My mom's driveway. And my phone rang, and it was you. Mhmm. You were On Tybee Island. Okay. Sitting on the deck outside the 2nd Floor. I can remember it. Me too. I'm in Moore, Oklahoma with Yeah. You know, with a 20 mile an hour, 20 degree wind blowing. And I remember, you calling because my mom had just passed away that week. And, this was, I believe, was the day after Thanksgiving. And, I remember you calling, and, I I just remember hanging up that phone and being truly, like, overcome with you've you've been so overcome. It's like, I don't even have the words for my overcome ness. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Just thinking, and that that's a dramatic example of care. Yeah. But the the expression you did would have been wonderful if if I didn't hardly even know you. You just heard about it and called. But our history Yep. Of you checking in on me, or asking about me, or coming to me, or caring for me in the little things, You know, I had a cold last week, and you go, hey, you feeling any better? Yeah. That kind of stuff. The the the ammunition or the the embers like that, when the flame comes up like a call after my mom has died three days earlier Yeah. Is stands out to me. Like, that that call was so special

or so powerful to me because of all the many days. All the other small days and small ways. Well, you so so that you just kinda highlighted the problem then is we really yeah. I don't know if this is right. I'm kinda throwing you out as an idea. We can't care for a lot of people well. Yeah. Like, everyone's got this need to be cared for well. And I think we all have a responsibility to care for others, right, that we recognize are like us and have been in pain and struggle like us. And but we don't have a lot of bandwidth to do that. I mean, there's probably a limitation of time and energy and just attention. Yeah. How many people can you keep up with? That's some of the difference, I think. I'm thinking about some a friend I have who if you met him, on the surface, man, you just think he is the greatest guy. He's just he'll he'll hug you and talk to you, and he'll remember about you and ask a question about that thing that happened that time. And the whole time you're thinking, this is supposed to feel good, but what's he selling me? Mhmm. Like, what like Yeah. You know? Oh, yeah. And, not to disparage car salesman, but it's got it's got a little bit of a like, I better kick the tires really hard here kinda feel. But the guy looks caring. Mhmm. You know? But he does it with everybody. Yes. Yeah. You know? And and so I I have a hard time per might say more about me. I got a hard time trusting it that someone could care for that many people that well. You know? And so I'm sitting here thinking, man, that is that level of knowing someone enough to ask about the cold or to ask about their their mom or to to really have an understanding about how they tick, Right? And what they might need is that's a that's a key part of it, isn't it? There's the limitation to be cared for, right, or to care for others. Yeah. And there you know, this sound this may sound like kind of a a a surfacey

add on. There are times when I will receive a a text or something and, from someone I haven't heard from in a long time, they'll just say, hey. For some reason, you came to mind. So I'm ready to practice on my phone. I've got a lot of numbers in my phone. A lot of them are, you know, peep guys have been here. And, there are times if I'm looking for a number or something and I run across that, if they're from a particular town, I'll paste in my phone and find every guy in that town and just say, hey. Think about my Memphis boys or think about my Edmonton boys today. Hope you're doing well. Yeah. That's not like, hey, man. Uncle Phil does great on that phone. No. Just to say, you know, the bandwidth is limited. And at the same time, I think so especially now with cell phones and Yeah. Social media, that kind of stuff. I'm I'm seeing more because of what people are doing with me, texting me, for example, about how, it opens up opportunities to pray for people, to reach out to people, just a a quick group text. Know you remember them. Yeah. Just just just text the just text the Memphis guys or the Southwest Florida guys and say, hey. Yeah.

Oh, that's good. So who in my life, like, would I take the thirteen seconds to when they come to mind to say, I was thinking about you. Yeah. And that's been so I don't know. That's a good that's a good spiritual discipline practice. Like It really is. Yeah. To tell people you're thinking about them when you're thinking about them. And somebody you know, I've I experienced that with a with a guy. It's a little it's a little, rough maybe for podcast, so I won't tell the details. But a guy Well, this is a this is a PG 13 podcast, I think. This guy will text in his, he'll text me and Chip. Yeah. He graduated from CPE years ago, probably over ten years ago, and he'll say, you know I'll say this. I was in my restroom thinking of you two.

So He didn't say restroom, though. No. No. He doesn't. But it is funny, you know, but Yeah. He'll it's just this cool little thing where he'll say, hey. Hey, you two. Yeah. You know? And and and I really I would read that from this guy and just say, look at that. He's just thinking of me and Chip and Yeah. Send a text. And so I just remember that it was delightful to me. It was affirming to me and that he wouldn't wouldn't telling me and Chip, oh, y'all are just the greatest thing ever. He said, hey. Think of the YouTube knuckleheads. Mhmm. And so many words. Take another little direction change. I'm sitting here as you're talking, thinking about what are the ways that I feel cared for. Right? Yeah. And, I know one of the ways I feel that's helped me feel cared for is actually telling the people in my life, hey. This is how I feel cared for. Right? Yes. Astounded rocket science. Right? But it is a thoroughly Stephen James way of doing it. So, like, there's you know, people like, I love to be told thank you. I love it. You can cuss me up and down. You but but to be one way I feel really cared for is when someone says, thank you. And, like, you know, some of our therapists at Sage Hill Counseling, I don't know if they're just playing me now because the people come up and say, hey. Thank you for doing that thing. I'm like, okay. Like but, really, like, I feel so cared for when people say thank you because that's one of the things that that's meaningful to me. You know? I know for Heather, she feels cared for when I stop and spend time and listen. Like, you know? Like, it doesn't hurt my feelings that I'm talking to somebody, and they're also piddling on their phone if we're just having a conversation. Mhmm. It's not anything serious. We're just Mhmm. But but my wife, man, it is like a dagger to her heart if I don't just stop and just be there with her for the moment. Right? Yes. You know? And to for me to practice caring for her that way is, you know I needed her to kinda tell me specifically, like, not only it bothers me when you look at your phone. That's one way. I don't really respond well to that. And when she said, I I I really feel cared for when you are not looking at anything else but me when I'm talking. Yes. It was like, oh, I can do that. Mhmm. You know? Like, I can I can Why didn't you say so? Yeah. Why didn't you say so? I have been saying so. Okay. Hold on now. So I know, like, maybe another way we can practice being cared for is just telling people, safe people, that, like, this is important to me. This is how I need to this is my quirky way of being cared for.

You know? I mean, that really is, like you said, like, oh, yeah. Duh. But you know what? I I haven't thought of that. Mhmm. I think there's really Yeah. I think there's a lot to that. Yeah. Like, this is how you know, this it gets a little bit into, you know, the love language thing here. Sure. But, you know, that's part of that, but I think there's a this is Well, you know, I'm married to an introvert and got an introvert daughter, an introvert son. And they have the sixth love language, which is lead me the hell alone. Yes. And it is I've had to really learn the way to love Emma Clare, you know, our our almost 17 year old, really is at times to give her her space. Yeah. And that is crazy to me. An extrovert like you, that just screams I don't like you. Oh, well, you know you know my realization, I'm not an extrovert. I'm an introvert that needs a lot of attention. People I get tired being around a lot of people. It wears me out. Uh-huh. But I need a ton of attention. Is that not the damnest thing? That really makes sense. Right? That does. But I've learned to to love in McClaire well, I've had to really learn to give her her space, which I call the six love language. You know, not to overcrowd, not to ask too many questions, not to press in. You know? Yeah. It's like quality time, like, in the other room. You know? Be close, but Yeah. Over there. And, man, it and she has said it directly. Like, hey. Just I need some space. It's like, okay. You're right. You know? It's a I think it's a little bit of the love language stuff, but it's really being willing to see, as you said in the beginning. I mean, this person's like me, and they have some they need need some mercy. Like, they need a break. How do I give this person a break? Mhmm.

It's beaut that really is beautiful. And I was thinking, this is two days ago, one of the guys who's here as we speak, in treatment, he he's not from here, and anyone who's from Middle Tennessee you say the word allergy. Everyone raises their hand and goes, oh, yeah. Wait. I get that. You know? Well, he's not from this area. And he's I if he's ever been here, it's not very often. And, of course, he got to town and his head just blew up. Oh, he's sure. You know, he's just miserable. Especially the weather. It's like 60 degrees in the middle of January now. So snow week ago. Yeah. And and and two degrees, you know, Saturday morning, whatever it was. But, so he was just miserable. This is yesterday. It was just miserable. And, I mean, puffy eyes, watery, head full of of junk. I mean, just and he didn't sleep, you know, to squat the night before. He was in check-in. He looked terrible. He's rubbing his eyes. He could barely stay awake. And I remember I looked over. He's sitting right next to me in check-in, and CPE guys know you know, nobody check-in. Yeah. I was I was looked over at him. I said, do do you need do you need to take a nap today? And and you would have thought, it was just the most amazing like you just said, he's telling it. It's the most amazing thing. He's he literally said, I can do that. And I was reminded again, like, you know, we we humans Yeah. Especially when we get sick in our stuff. Oh. I'll do it myself. I'll gut through it and all that stuff. It's like it had not even occurred. He's a really smart guy. He is a very high functioning, exceedingly well paid professional Yeah. Of where he's from. Really smart. He's got tons of formal education. He's no dummy. And it never occurred to him to say, man, I cannot keep my eyes open. Is it okay if I grab a nap? Never occurred to him. And, and that's me, and that's you. Oh, that's me, man. Humans. You know? And and so what you're talking about, like, just just to the people that love me and that I love to just say to them, this is this is how I can really be cared for. This is how I can be cared for today. Yes. And I'm just reminded as you were talking just less than 24 or a little over 24 ago. This really smart guy was clearly about to fall over in his face. Didn't know how to be cared for. Had no idea. And needed it. Badly. Did he take the nap? He did. Oh, good. He really did.

I love a good nap. Oh. Oh, man. Love a good nap. Alright. Well, thank you. This is great. You know, maybe, Chip will let us have the podcast room more often. Well, we'll just catch him, you know, catch him, out of the office again like this. Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. So, Chippy, you hear this. We're sorry. Alright. Thanks, Phil. Thank you. This is Stephen James, the executive director of Sage Hill Counseling. Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sometimes in life, we get stuck or blocked or reach an impasse. At times like these, an intensive short term therapy could help you overcome what's keeping you from the growth and changes you desire. At Sage Hill Counseling, we offer therapeutic incentives to help couples gain new momentum in their recovery process. If you wanna find out more, please visit sagehillcounseling.com.