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Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they're made to be so they can do what they're made to do. Hey, Chip. Hello, Stephen. Little echo here in the new Sage Hill studio. Well, it is. It's Yeah. It is. It's, it's nice, though. Yeah. It's good. It's very echoe y, actually. A lot of changes been going on lately. Yes. Yeah. Hear that? A lot of changes. CP has moved. CP has moved. We've actually merged with, JourneyPure, which is a, it's a bigger treatment capacity, a place called JourneyPure at the river. And, well, it's really Murfreesboro, Tennessee, but Smyrna. It's about 200 acres. Oh, wow. They literally asked us to please pick up who we are and what we do and go out there, and we decided to do it because of all the ancillary treatment services. What do you mean, like, what what does that mean? Well, I mean, they they have equine therapy, they have music, art therapy, all these things that we've always had to outsource or plus they have a detox unit on on on campus as well. Medical facilities. So basically allows us like CP is better. Yeah. And it allows us to do what we've always done, but in a more secure environment. You know? Yeah. And, also, we can take people in who are need to be in treatment. We can take them in sooner versus waiting until Mondays to do it or something like that. Oh, wow. It's a big change. You know, one of the the most extraordinary things we've heard, even though basically, honestly, we were in one building for twenty one years, and I've heard people describe it as it's a sacred place, and amazingly, I think that, there's some real truth to that because a lot of sacred things happened in that place. Sure. In fact, when I wrote the letter of saying goodbye to, you know, informing everyone who is on our email of the change, I said, I've so appreciated all the people who walk the halls and also experience the miracles in the rooms. But anyway, nevertheless, the most affirming thing I've heard, is that people say, it's not about the building, it's like, because we were transitioning some people who were in treatment, and then they came out to to JourneyPure with us. Great. It says it has nothing to do with the place. It's about who we're going with. Say, wherever y'all go, we're going. That's great to hear. That's good to hear. That had to feel good. Which has a lot to do you know, we're talking about transitions today. Yeah. And we'll talk about that, but that has a lot to do with what makes transitions possible without a tremendous amount of, resistance. Actually, not letting them happen. Yeah. I mean, life's gonna change anyway, but we need to change with it, and we can really resist that happening. Always. Often. Yeah. Are there any other big transitions going on for you? As in what? I don't know. Oh, no. Actually, I'm like, what do you well, I got hit in the mouth the other day. I heard about that. Yeah. Yeah. We can talk about that later. Yeah. I've, transition of finding out I'm probably too old to be playing softball. Church league softball? After twenty five years, a guy asked me to play. I'm thinking, you know, I'm the guy that nobody wants to play. I'm the older guy that wanted to play soft ball, but, the younger guys don't want him there. Oh, yeah. Or they put him on the line. Yeah. And now they they asked me to come play. I've I've just, like, you know anyway, we'll talk about that later. Maybe you could be, like, a third base coach. No. No. No. I'm an outfielder, believe it or not. Believe it or not.

Maybe like a left fielder or No. Right fielder? Oh, you mean, like, where they put the people don't Or a sit outfielder? Sit outfielder. Did you miss here? Left outfield. Left outfielder. Left outfielder. Okay. I gotcha. Oh, you're so funny. Anyway. How funny, funny. Yeah. You know, last night we did an evening with Sage Hill. We had a bunch of people here at the studio. We had probably 40 people here, and we talked about transitions. Mhmm. And one of the things we talked about was that life is constantly in transition. Life is constantly changing. No moment stays the same. Everything's passing and moving and changing and evolving. And and if we're gonna live fully, and be who we're made to be, we have to learn to transition with time, with the moment Yeah. With the story. And you did a great lecture, around Thank you. Around grief and trust and, just what it takes to move through life and keep heart as life continues to to transition. Mhmm. You know? And one of the things that's hit me is just and I talked about this a little bit last night too, is that, you know, my kids are all getting older. You know? I got a daughter starting high school or finishing high school. I got a son starting high school, and I got two sons entering middle school. You know? It's like a like, no one's the same. You know? They got sprouting the boys are sprouting hair all over their bodies, and and her voices sound like grown men. And and you saw my son. You saw life yesterday. I didn't know. I I didn't even recognize him. Yeah. It's probably only been, like, a year and a half, maybe two years since you've seen him, and he looked like a different person. He looked like and acted like a different person. Yeah. Like a man like a young man. He had a he had a different maturity, different awareness, a a way of responding to me that he wouldn't have even recognized wanting to do or needing to do a year ago. And so there's there's time, and I'm sure you've experienced this with your own sons, is when I look at my kids, it's like there's been so much change. I recognize them, and yet I don't know who they are anymore. Like, I'm still trying to get to know them as they're changing because they're changing so quickly. Mhmm. You know? That's what I was thinking about last night when you were talking. It's just I I can't hold on to this moment, So I better go with the moment if I wanna be with the people that I love. You know? So why don't you talk a little bit about that, about what happens in transition and what we need to do in it? You know,

one of the things we talked about last night and one of the things that we can really relate to is that when we start talking about a life is always moving, and I know it's repetitive. Sunrise, sunset, there's a there's a repetition that life itself never ages, but everything alive that, that is like us, you know, ages. Mhmm. And, so life has a repetitive nature about it, which seems permanent and daily and eternal, yet we are always having to change as life happens. Yeah. You know? Because we're growing and we're we're we're always having to face differences. And we talked about last night that for every single event of movement, transit, transition means passageway or passage or, going across something or over something, but for every single change that occurs in our lives, there is there are feelings that go with those changes. We talked about one guy talked about how when he finished medical school, finally had gotten to the top of, his achievement quest. And was he, celebratory? And he said no. I mean, he'd finally made it to the top of his desires, and, that transitioning into, you know, being a a doctor, and yet it was not a happy moment for him because change entails having to deal with feelings like what it took to get there, what it cost, how long he had endeavored to to be there, and then the letdown of having arrived because it it puts me in a position of having to say and face what's next. Right. The achievement puts us in a position of having to face not being in control. So his transition was having to learn how to not achieve so much. The lady who was, due to have her child Oh. Next week, she's transitioned. She's been, like, physically called transitioned. Yes. Right. Yes. Yes. She's going from the dream of this baby and the fears of the baby's health. And let's say the baby's born healthy as she hungers, and she has the dream of what it's gonna be like to have this child. And while she's having this dream and while she's having this child and after this child is born, she's gonna be getting up at night and the the first set of coughs and

the first cries that she doesn't understand is not even Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. I just remember, like Yeah. Emma Clare being in the crib and crying Yeah. As a newborn and Yeah. Us learning her cries Yeah. Right, and not having the confidence as a parent to trust our instincts around her cries because we didn't know them. Yes. And then as you got more experienced, as you've mentioned, when you began to be able to handle her cries, transition, having to deal with feelings, if you don't deal with feelings, you try to shut down the change. Right? Right. So now your children have gone through that phase. You've gotten as soon as you've got confidence in being able to understand it, you know, the cries and trust your, you know, intuition, knowledge as parents. All of a sudden, they step into another developmental territory that you haven't done Yeah. With them. Yeah. Unless you did dealt with your own feelings about your own developmental territories, you're not gonna be able to step into theirs. Right. So does that make sense to you? It makes total sense. Yeah. So for every event or change in life, there's a set of feelings that go with it. Right? Yes. Because we're always thinking, but we're always feeling too. And for every change, there is, a loss.

Yeah. Does that make sense to you? Makes total sense to me. I saw. I remember when we were getting getting married, Heather talked about this, and then when is that, like, the loss of our engagement. Right? Like, it was such a sweet season, and when she was so excited to get married and so was I, where she's saying, like, it's gonna be sad just not being engaged anymore. I was like, I was so not present and not available. I looked at her, I remember thinking, like, that's stupid. Yeah. But it was so wise. You know? Yes. And so when we started She was she was dealing with the transition. Yes. Much better than I was. And then we started having kids. I remember, like, grasping that idea of of, you know, going from just our coupleship to children. That that was a wonderful transition, but there's a grief and letting go of just the two of us. Yeah. And then going from, you know, having one child that we learned how to love to another child, and there was a a loss and a gain. Right? And then all along the way, even, you know, a few years ago, we moved houses from a from a house we really loved to a house we got to design and build on our own, and so it's, like, perfect for just our family. Mhmm. And it's still kinda sad, like, leaving the little house that was, you know, that we were living in, moving to this this bigger home, it was more comfortable for our family. So everything was better. It was so much better, but the house is right across the street. I remember. Right? And so we'll still sit on the front porch in the swing and go, remember when we used to do that in that front yard? And it's sad. Yeah. And it's right there. Yes. Yeah. And you literally because I've been in both houses,

the the new house y'all built is, you know, is something from a magazine. Yeah. It's nice. It's better. Yeah. And yet you like we were talking about just a minute ago, for every every event of life or every transition that occurs, there's a change. And for every change, even when the changes are better, it's still loss. And for every loss, there is a grief. Yeah. But grief doesn't mean everything's sad. It means taking into account of your life so you can find the joys of it too. Absolutely. Because you sit on this porch going, I'm so grateful I had this house, but that gratitude comes from what? I mean, looking across the street Remembering stories playing wolf ball where the fence was the home run fence. We'd hit it down the street as a home run. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we just don't have that this that my children aren't that size anymore. Mhmm. And even though it's right there and it was a better decision to move, we still have sadness about where we don't live anymore. Mhmm. You know? Mhmm. Last night, you talked to about trust, the importance of trust in transition. Can you say something about that? Yeah.

Two things. There's been enough scientific research to to back up how the heart grows, but it's really talking about brain health, but that brain health is really about heart health too. And, Marion Diamond was the woman who really did the research to sort of found the, neuroplasticity school of of brain research. And she talked about brain health and even maybe even prevention of of of certain kinds of Alzheimer's. But she said there are five things that are required for a person to be able to, live a healthy life and have brain health. Basically, it was use it or lose it, which means that being capable and even being attracted to transition. So because some of the the five characteristics for brain health were exercise and nutrition, which really means just taking care of yourself. Right. But also newness, allowing yourself to experience things that you would not necessarily predict were going to occur. Like anxiety is controlled, William Carlos Williams says, a chance occurrence of the expected. And a lot of people are are expecting something terrible to occur. Right. So we we do everything we can to keep life like we've always known it, which means not get disrupted or put in a position of pain so we can't experience anything new because we're always looking for that dangerous thing that was always old. Yeah. We work against our creativeness. Yes. Like, our our brains are created to adapt and change and grow. We are made for newness, and then the fourth thing she said was that, not just newness, but, challenge. So moving daring for you guys to move from this house that y'all had really outgrown. Literally. Like And literally and and and to take the challenge of designing, building, and stepping into your dreams, your dream house, and seeing if y'all could do it right across the street. And so you took the challenge, you took on the newness, and you've grown from it like crazy, And it even allows you to appreciate your past or where you came from or looking looking backwards. So we're just So if we're resistant to anxiety,

like, if we're if we're in anxiety and in control, we won't move into it. If you can't do feelings, you're gonna resist change. Yeah. But I've but I heard specifically anxiety Uh-huh. And shame keep us from transition. Absolutely. Yeah. Not willing and and doing whatever I've gotta do to not being put into position of having feelings of loneliness, hurt, sadness, all those kinds of things. So if I wanna get better at transition, I need to be better at dealing with my fear and dealing with my healthy shame. Yes. Okay. Yes. And being willing to feel lonely, sad, hurt, you know, fearful, and also making room for gladness because gladness is very scary because we're letting go of control when we celebrate. We're we've forgotten to look around to see who's watching us laughing. Right. We're we're laughing with joy. Yeah. And then she also added, she said, I haven't found sort of a a neurobiological, neuro an anatomical proof of this, but she said love,

relationship connection. Wired for relationship connection. Wired for relationship connection. And so a person who actually trusts is more capable of transition and and dealing with transition because they're believing in something other than their own power to control life. Certainly. Yeah. So, you know, you're trusting that maybe y'all could build this house. You're trusting that you and Heather could do it together. You're trusting that dreams can possibly come true. And trust is the ability to give yourself over to possibilities. It's like a way of willingness. Right. You know? Because, while we're attracted to permanence, we're also attracted to the risks of going to of exploration and going to see what else is out there. Yeah. Yeah. And so trust is it really means confidence in four things. Trust is, ability to put my confidence in these four characteristics of the other. One is trust in the character. Two is trust in the ability. Three is trust in the integrity, and four is trust in the truth of whatever that other is. Now those four words, they sound so They do sound super similar. Well, and they and they also sound super invisible. You know? They they don't don't seem like concrete It's kinda like you know it when you know it. Yeah. They're very relational. But character really means that's the that's the signature, a character. That's the signature, the the identity of that person, God. Now this is how God does it. A character in writing. This is like it's like a character in writing, the signature. Character is like a signature. Oh, yeah. That's Steve's signature. That that's Steve. Steve so if Steve put his signature on it, then I can trust that. And people have called me a character. Yes. Yeah. So character is one, and then ability is this person is able to do what they say. Okay. And then integrity, this person consistently does what they say if they're able. Yep. Integrity means that the inside and the outsides match Same through and through. Their heart, their voice, their faces altogether. And then truth is that that that that willingness to face exactly what really is occurring inside and outside. So those words all go together, but a person can actually transition if they're able to trust that there's something other than themselves that's going to be with them, carry them, they can speak their feelings to, they can connect with. And, you know, God is so important. And, certainly, that's God, but it also has to be other people. People. Absolutely. I mean, I was working with a guy yesterday who spent his whole life basically like a robot getting the job done. I mean, he was a as a young child, the the the rules of the family, follows alcoholic, rules of the family were work achieve if you're gonna get anything. Work achieve, survive, work achieve, survive. Married, became a very highly successful professional engineer. Work achieve, work achieve, and then basically some series of events occurred. The bottom dropped out of his life through, you know, other forms of alcoholism. But anyway, he was waking up every day, go achieve. This is what you do. This is what you gotta do. And then one day, he just couldn't. Literally just everything just sort of He ran out. He ran out. And then he, quote, found himself sitting in a corner in a fetal position, not knowing what to do with himself because he had no alternative when transition was required. Right. When it was time to step into life on life's terms, all he knew is what he had always known, and so he did everything he could to keep life like it always been so he wouldn't have to feel. And this guy, because this is a well, this is a guy we've treated, but to hear him talk about trusting other people is amazing. He says, I can ask people anything now. I had forgotten how to cook, he said. He said he asked somebody, how do you scramble eggs? So they taught him how to scramble eggs again. He says the wonder of getting to make eggs is amazing. He said I had forgotten He's alive again. Yes. But simple things, like, I had forgotten how to the smell of a steak on a grill. And he said, I I was we were watching a movie the other night, and he said, I looked over because I found tears in my eyes, and I looked over at this other guy named Steve, and, he had tears in his eyes, and I knew it was okay. Wow. So he's he's not just rediscovering, taking risks. He's rediscovering normal, and normal is trusting ourselves and others in the transition. So it's, yes, it's about people too. And he was trusting that this other guy had a character,

was able, had integrity, and was being trusted. Maybe we all need to find people like that. Yeah. Other people Like, we can't transition without other people. Other people who are willing to show themselves and grieve and face change and face loss. Yeah. That's all. Thanks, man. That's helpful. That really is helpful to me. I I enjoyed the Yeah. The talk last night, and and, I was glad to revisit some of this. It was it was really good. I wish that people could have been here because the talk's live, so it's better than this, I think. Well, they're ever in Nashville on the, second Thursday of the month, they can come to the evening to say chill. And you know, there's one transition we really, most of us,

especially don't want to step into, and it's it's old folks' death. We look forward to it, but at the same time, we really don't want to have to face it yet. We'll do another podcast live. Thanks, man. Thanks, Steve. See