The Key to Full Living

Transcript of a Sage Hill Live Fully Podcast conversation with Dr. Chip Dodd. Lightly edited for readability; speaker labels omitted.

You're listening to the Sage Hill podcast with Dr. Chip Dodd. Sage Hill is a social impact organization that helps people see who they're made to be so they can do what they're made to do. Hey, Chip. How you doing? Hey, man. We're doing a special podcast today from your house. Yes. Yeah. And we're in the Memorabilia Room. And we we Library study. You know we are. We're in the room that's, of keepsakes, honestly. So Is that that's an okay word to use. Yeah. Some art that William has painted. Yeah. William did a self George Washington and family pictures. Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural address, Desiderata. Have you seen it? Desideratum? What is Desideratum? It's a a mock, actually, I think Fifth Dimension or something in the sixties or something did a song Desideratum. Even though the world is a dark and difficult place, there's still hope in the universe kinda deal. So a monk wrote that years ago, Desideratum. Quote from It's a Wonderful Life up there. No man is a failure if he has friends. A friend a friend gave that to me. Clarence? A a a former person that I worked with years ago show gave me a sent a picture of a light, a door open in the darkness. Oh, oh, going home, a a guy I treated years ago, sent me a portrait of a place when he was a teenager. They used to ride out an old jeep in Oklahoma. Oh, wow. It was a house where they used to just read magazines, period actually read periodicals. Periodicals.

Yeah. We sit out there and read out in Oklahoma. He remembers that as a great One of those pictures on the table is a couple leather leather chairs with ottomans, and between them, there's a there's a pretty sizable table covered with one, two, three, four, five, six, seven photographs. What what are those pictures of? Boys. The boys. Tennessee and and William. Yeah. When they were little. Sonya has adorned my world with and me participating in it with, layers of of love and memory. I love coming to your house, because there there is everywhere you look. Oh, that's a prototype of there's a let me say that. I'm a compliment. Oh, okay. You love the compliment. So I follow his microscope. Yeah. Just stop talking. Like everywhere you look, there's a story every and a memory Yeah. About relationship. Yeah. You know, there's nothing in this place that's artificial that, is just there for decoration, that there are lots of decorations.

That's true. Everything has a story. Everything's got and a weight to it and and a tears with it and a joys with it, and yet it's all here. And father's Trump from medical school that his aunt Lid had that, route to Murfreesboro, and you don't have to put a ZIP code or Just get shipped back and forth on the train. To Murfreesboro. They they they knew it was so small. Wow. So, you know, a couple Cherry table I I did years built years ago. Taught me how to use a wood lathe and had some wild cherry that my aunt, Eva You built that table? Uh-huh. That's ridiculous. Uh-huh. That's beautiful. Can I have that when you die? Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. That's really cool. You you check. Take it today. So it's like we've gotta load some stuff. Y'all got some stuff.

Yeah. Y'all got some stuff that is a lot of stuff. This lap desk from, that they used to use in the the eighteen hundreds is really neat neat, gift. Got years ago Christmas. Like, back in the sixties. Sixties. What do you feel when you look around at all this? Honestly, I feel, grateful, and I can see stories of my life, and I feel sad. Yeah. What's the sad? I think the sad the sad has to do with appreciation, as crazy as it sounds. You know, when you and I talk about how sadness is, most people would hear me say I'm sad, and they would say, what's wrong with you? But to me, sadness is a is a a part of the process of gratitude. Mhmm. You know, it sounds like, oh, come on. But, a It doesn't sound like what it means. I'm glad it doesn't to you. And then a lot of other people who are listening to this podcast here, but but, I mean, I've gotten to attach. I've gotten to care. I've gotten to be involved. I've gotten to be around things, people, places, and times that matter to me. I've I've longed for even more than I've ever gotten. I have memories that are unfinished. Do you know? You longed for more than you've ever gotten, and you've gotten more in some ways than you ever ever believed I would. Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. So I don't know if there was a lack of confidence or just I'm amazed at how good some things that are good have been Yeah. And, of course, how sad things that are sad are. But, you know, the attachment feeling is sadness Yeah. Because it's the caring feeling. And whenever because this room is full of times gone by. There's not anything that's, being built in here. No. There's not there's nothing of the future, and everything in here is of the past. Yeah. Every single thing from the founding fathers to, you know, there's a picture of Washington, Abraham Lincoln, things people have given me, even that old Camel

carry bag. I see one of my books down there in the corner. Stevie James is in here. Stevie James lives here. Yeah. Even when I was in Israel, there's some old pottery from And so that sadness feeling is the valuing feeling. It it teaches us to value loss. The attachment feeling. It allows us to attach to things. It allows us to care about things. It is the litmus test feeling. I mean, it really is. Our capacity to be sad is directly connected to how much we care. So it gets courageous to care. So when I was blubbering like a child at It's a Wonderful Life in the Belcourt Cinema right before Christmas Mhmm. And I'll get you unfinished. I'm all back on a tear. Thing about right now, though. When those people run-in and are pouring money on the table for George and his brother runs in and says George Bailey, the richest man in town. Right? Every time every time a person comes in, I feel I cry more. Yeah. Right. And it's more sadness and more hurt. What am I sad about there?

Well, you know, here's what I think. Yeah. And may I tell a little piece of a story? I ran in the Peachtree years ago. I'd never I'd never run it, but somebody said, hey. I've got a number. Do you wanna go? It's the marathon. The six miles. Six miles. Or the six Ten k. 10 k. 10 k. And, I hadn't run-in, like, more than two miles in a long time because of my hip. But, anyway, so I got a number, got on the whatever the tramass transit is, wound up at 05:00 yeah. The Marta thing. Ran it, and I I never been in it. I didn't know what a big race would look like, So I started running with everybody else, and all of a sudden I got out into the the race, and thousands of people are along the sidewalks holding signs. You can do it. Happy birthday, America. We're for you. And it it just hit me, the celebration, and I'm one of, what, 20 thou I don't know how many Lots. Lots. They weren't there just for you. They in fact, no. I was a a passing number, unrecognizable number, really. But I I also recognized in that that that idea of being celebrated, appreciated, seen, recognized, known, hoped for, wished for, mattering. I I was running, and I started to cry. I mean, I ran and cried in a way that was happy cry. Mhmm. Like, like, thank you. This is so great. This is what it feels like to be treasured, to be remembered, to be recognized. It's it's every person's longing, every person's wish. You know, back in the in the history of us, the history of us humans, in the pagan world, it was the the the greatest achievement or greatest, experience is to become immortal.

Which means to be remembered after your death. Right. Yeah. So to to be forever alive. And then in the Christian world, of course, we have eternal. So there's something in the human makeup that so so hungers to be recognized, known, seen, touched, needs met, know that they've left something behind. I mean, that's how we're we're actually made. And so when so when we see George Bailey never fully knowing how much he really mattered while he was always trying to matter Yeah. You know? Be be a big shot. Be important. Yes. Wanted to, you know, conquer the world, and then finally, he gave up and simply cared about people. But in both ways, he couldn't help but want to matter, I think, right? I think so. Yeah. So when he comes in and when people come in and go, George, you have always been loved. We've always seen you. We've always known you. Thank you. He he didn't know that anyone could give to him unless he'd given to them first or something to that effect. So so when when he sees love, it it it overwhelms us all because I think, you know, when we look into our heart of hearts, we don't we wonder if why somebody would love us? Part of it is toxic shame. Yeah. And part of it is genuine humility, and part of it is a correct assessment of ourselves. Yeah. We we we can do some pretty unlovable things, so almost all true love is mercy, grace applied to the undeserving and unmerited and the willingness to receive it anyway. So when we see that, I think we're overwhelmed with just gratitude.

And there's some deep connection between gratitude and sadness. Yes. Because it's about value. Yes. Right? Sadness is valuing things. If you value anything, the appropriate response as a as a human being is to be grateful. Yeah. Right? And so that and that's helped me understand that. So sadness and gratitude are so connected. Yeah. I'm looking back on, you know, with here we are again, but I'm looking look. I'm at an age where I'm looking backwards in some ways. I I really am. And, I look and, I I I have an appreciation. Like, I really did give myself, and for that giving, there were some people who got to be George Baileys. Mhmm. You know, I gave myself and and say, you you're worth whatever it takes for you to live the life you're made to live. So and at the same time, I have such gratitude and appreciation for what I've gotten to do. It's like, I'm amazed because when I was younger, I didn't think that I would get to do what I've done. Right. At the same time, I hoped I would get to do what I've done. I didn't know what it would look like. And at the same time, when I look back, I go, oh, I've gotten to do and a lot of it is done. So even the greatest appreciation is also has, oh, I've gotten to do this. It's done. You hear people that that climb mountains or achieve some finish a race or finish med school or graduate, and they go into this

depressed place afterwards. Yeah. They achieve the goal and then they're lost because they don't know how to push Yes. And accomplish. They don't know who they are. And that's a lack of appreciation for what gratitude cost and what gratitude really is. It's not just about I should be happy. It's paying the price of what gratitude cost. I climbed this. What did it cost me to do it? What have I paid to get there? And also facing life on life's terms that the greatest moment of our lives is about to end. Mhmm. Did you get that? Yeah. The greatest moment of our lives is about to end. We hope for it longer than we get to live it. You hear what I'm saying? Say it again. I'm not sure anything. Like, you dreamed of of of being married, and you dreamed of what she would be like on some level. On some level. Sure. And so then when you met Heather, you dreamed of I more dreamed of not being alone. Okay. That was desperate to not be alone. Yeah. And I found out that marriage is pretty awesome. Yeah. So you yeah. You wound up not being alone. Okay? And and so you married Heather, and when you when you were getting prepared to get married to Heather, you had all kinds of pictures of what it was was going to be like. Yes. And so so we spend more time hoping about the lives we live than than getting to live the lives that we were hoping for. We spend more time hoping about the lives we live we we wanna live than we actually spend what? Living the lives we we actually have. Like, you got married and you'd been anticipating it, and then you were married and you anticipate it would be like,

and then, you know, you were flat planning to show You know, it's been twenty two years. Two weeks three weeks ago was our twenty second wedding anniversary. I'll tell you the best parts of our marriage were nothing I dreamed of. Nothing I hoped for. Right? That's looking backwards. Looking backwards. And you appreciate it. Oh, so much. And sad. And there's a sadness in in it too, not for what I didn't get to experience, but just for Appreciation. Yeah. It's weird. It's like, you know, some level, that that to me is true gratitude because it was more than I thought it would be. Right? And at the same time, I see the cost of going towards four something. Right. All the fears and hurts and loneness. And then I had little time left. Yeah. Big mistake is that when we become and this is

And how I didn't appreciate it while it was happening. Yes. So the regret Yeah. And mistakes made, regret. But if if we're not able to be sad, if we can't face that sadness as part even of the greatest moment cause the greatest moment is about to end, okay? Mhmm. And what it took to get to that greatest moment. Is that right? So when we become more expert in the lives we don't have instead of expert in living the lives we do have, we're we're running away from the life we can have. And feelings help us live the life that we do have so we can have the life we can have. Sadness is a key that opens up to living the lives we do have.

Yeah. And and and and fantasy is escaping the lives we do have. We become expert in the lives we don't have living in the future. Sadness is in that way, yeah, it keeps us out of the future. It keeps us grounded in the moment. Yes. Kind of this moment. Yes. Right. What will I do now? Okay. Well, then what happens when I won't feel my sadness? Like, it's gonna come out. It's gonna come out some other way. Uh-huh. Tell me tell me how it goes. Well, I'll tell you a bunch of ways, I think, and and you just throw in all over the place. But but when when I won't feel my sadness, it becomes a a a prideful tragic k. Both prideful tragic willfulness to not be affected by life. And I remember we we we use this room in some ways as a metaphor, but this is a living, breathing, organismic room. Right? Yes. Organismic. I said, you smile. See, I do. See, I've known you a long time. Sorry. But in my early offices, going way back to, really eighty eighty something, I've never had an office that put a thing in in there. There were blank walls. So I had no intention of staying. So I wasn't going to be affected. I wasn't going to be touched. I wasn't planning to attach. I was all I was headed somewhere else. I wasn't going to live where I was. I wasn't going to feel what it was like to live where I was because I intended to get out of there and to go somewhere else quickly. Right. I was getting my life over with in some ways without even seeing I was doing it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And I didn't wanna feel one, if I attached to an office, I didn't wanna feel how far away I was and where I really wanted to go because I wanted to leave Texas and move back to where I am sitting right now. Right. But the truth is having the courage to attach where we are, guarantees us to have sadness. So the opposite of that, an impaired expression of that, is to try not to care. And a lot of times we call strength, not attaching enough to let life bother us. And then, of course, self pity. Oh, my favorite. Huge.

Sarcasm. I I think people have so much contempt for self pity. Contempt towards it. Oh, God. Talk about that. When I hear it, when I smell it, when I see somebody, I I feeling sorry for themselves or demanding that I feel sorry for them. So Which is self pity is a is a lack of full hearted participation to grieve my own life. Right? Right. So other people have to do it for me to take care of it for me. It flies all over me. And I think some of that And it's also a way it's it's it's a strange way of also asking somebody to care. Oh. Right? No. I I but If this one I do though, will they let me? And if they don't, boom.

Yeah. Trouble. Right? Trouble. Because for me, I think some of it is a lot of it is self right righteous indignation around. Well, I'm I'm tough. Like, they should be tough too. You know, I don't get to be sad. They should they what are they were they moaning about bellyaching about? Right? That's a lot about my own reaction. Like counter transferring, reacting to theirs. Oh, that's a big word. That's good counter transferring. Yeah. Yeah. If I throw that out. Yeah. Thank you. What does it mean? Working out my crap on somebody else's That's it. It's about right. Yeah. But so I think a lot of my resistance to self pity is that is my own refusal, my own sadness, my own resistance to, like, I'm not I don't let myself be sad. You better not let yourself be sad. Yeah. I think another part of it is in in the ways I grew up and the families I grew up family I grew up in. Not a lot of people took responsibility for their own feelings. Yes. There's a demand that other people do sad and there's not a lot of sadness done in my family. Right. There's a lot of competition for people feeling sorry for themselves. Right. So I I think I have some, some itchy trigger finger around self pity. Like somebody's trying to control you and you're not gonna let it happen. Yeah. Yeah. Like that their feelings always matter more than my feelings. Right? So it brings up a lot of my old stuff, you know? And I used to have a real hard time being sad. I thought crying. I used to have a hard time crying. You mean,

finding your tears and letting them be? Yeah. Letting them letting them happen? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People do you notice people apologize for that all the time. Yeah. So I hate that. People they Mhmm. God, when someone apologizes for crime, it makes me so mad. Yeah. So it's like go ahead and go back to self pity and being apathetic towards your own life. Yeah. So I got a lot of I thought strength and and and not being sad were the same thing Yes. For a long time. Yeah. Yes. I did too. Not letting life get to me. Uh-huh. Not not saying things that I lost matters. Strong survive. Mhmm. Survive with strength. Only a really strong person can cry because they're they're secure in who they are. Right? Is it strength and tenderness? Only a truly courageous person can care. Fullhearted participation, courage. Yeah. And courage cost us something.

So how does a person get back from self pity or from or from refusal of of grief and appreciation? Like, what's the turn they need to make to get to move they find someone finds himself in self pity. What do they need to do to get back to sadness? Well, for well, one thing, I've I've got to have some people in my life who will, call me on it or confront me about it. Mhmm. You know, because when I'm in it, I might know it, and I might not. I mean, I'm I'm delivering a significant and serious complaint about, the unfairness of life, which is, unfair. I'm I'm delivering a a serious complaint about reality. I tried to I don't like it. Yeah. And the fact is it is real, a reality. So, I mean, self pity is really close to having genuine sadness. So somebody could say, hey. What are you really talking about? I need people in my life who'll say, what are you really talking about? In other words, what are you really feeling? Yeah. And I'm gonna be mad about the way life is working. Or hurt about it, and somebody just say, well, so what's that like? Well, I don't like it. Well, what do you mean you don't like it? Well, what I don't like it is just not what I planned Now it's not what I planned, not what I wanted, not what I wished. So there is I was attached to a wish, a plan, right, a dream. Dream. Yeah. Didn't happen, not happening, not happening fast enough, and that feeling is a broken attachment. Boom. You're I'm at the sadness. A self imposed broken attachment. Yes. Yes. And but but when somebody confronts me or cares enough about me to care about me, you know, will I let it happen? Will I will I let their words take me to the mirror

and say, I'm sad? K. That's one way. There's other ways. One way is a willingness to to look backwards at our at our lives, whether it's the day or the years. To look backwards and say, it's back to what did I wish? What did I dream? What do I hope? What are we looking for? You know, it's it's sadness is found based upon how much I wanted. That was planned. Does that make sense? Yeah. So that you said that, I'm thinking about a lot of it last night. I was playing, a board game with Henry. And we're sitting in our living room and behind them, this fire was going. Yeah. And, he and I are playing this game, and I'm just looking at him. It's it was a really sweet moment. Like, it was just an ordinary moment. And I was, you know, I had to wipe away a couple of tears in the beauty of it. Right? Like, in the beauty of What did it remind you of? Remind me of of his childhood being his little boy ness is gone. Right? He's almost 13. Yeah. Right? It reminded me of not getting to do that with my dad. Yeah. It reminded me of how much I love being with my children. Yeah. Right? And guy Memory is unfinished and longings unattained. Yeah. It's like, will he will he want to do this with me when he's older? Like, the fear of that. Right? Yeah. You know? And then And you know the answer to that already. I know. No. Let's do it this way. Well, yes and no. Well, you know, yes and no. Of course, he will, And it'll be gone. Yeah. And and he will be busy. Some of the worst parenting I've done is try to recreate good moments. Yeah. Remember that time we did that? Let's do that again. Try to say, hold your head your kids head underwater to bop for apples. Bob's apple. I'm a yeah. Yeah. Recreate. It was sad and be in a beautiful sadness Yes. Right, that I experienced with him. So Or experienced in me. So, Stephen, so how transient

our lives are, but love isn't transient. Do you know what I'm saying? I don't mean to talk weird, but it's like you there you go. I can't help it. I mean, so just Life keeps moving, but love's constant. Yes. I mean, this hungering to be immortal and craving to be eternal Mhmm. Mean, it's like, who am I loved? Do I matter? Do you care? I mean, it's it's god created that in us. Mhmm. This craving to be attached completely and utterly. I mean And to fully attach, I gotta feel sad. It's the it's eternal. Yeah. So do it, Stephen. It's it's so beautiful that that you had that that moment of of smelling the eternal. You had a scent of the eternal, and it was about to disappear. Yeah. You know? Oh, it's so rich. It was just a glimpse. It's a glimpse, a moment of appreciation. Right?

Mhmm. And Yeah. It's good, man. Well, thank you. Hey. It's sunny today. It's cold. It's cold. It's cold in Tennessee this week. Mhmm. Cold. Like, below below 10 degrees cold, which in the South is like super cold. Yes. We wonder if it'll ever end. Yeah. Yeah. No. I have a New Year's resolution this year. Well, it isn't safe. To complain about the weather. You just did. I know. I I No. I'm kidding. You did. But It's so hard not to complain about the weather. Well, let me tell you, I made a a a a New Year's resolution in March about fifteen years ago, and we had zero degrees. And I thought to myself, I'll never ever ever ever complain about the heat again, and I never have. I'm telling you, the cold scares me, but heat does. I will take this over the heat any day. Are you serious? No. You could always put more on. You can't always take it off. I've heard that. I say make it hotter. Let's go. Alright. I love it. See you. Hey. Thanks, Stephen. Bye. Bye.

Thanks for listening to the Sage Hill podcast. Wanna take a second to let you know about something coming up that we're starting called Sage Hill Leadership Lab, which is an opportunity for leaders, men or women who are leading in a professional context, whether entrepreneurs or doctors or nurse leaders or managers or church leaders or principals to come meet four times a year to be in a process of learning to lead more fully from the heart. To find out more about that, you can go to sagehillconsulting.com.